Talk:List of ships attacked by Somali pirates/Archive 1

Archive 1

move

The move of this page from List of ships captured by Somali pirates to[ [List of ships captured by pirates off the coast of Somalia]] has introduced an inaccuracy. The recent MV Sirius Star was captured unambiguously off the coast of Kenya, and most of the hijacked ships are closer to the coast of Yemen than Somalia anyway. - BanyanTree 23:39, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

I would then favor a move of List of ships captured by pirates off the coast of Somalia to List of ships captured by Somali pirates as geography is in question of accuracy. Should this list then incorporate all the history of ships captured by pirates of Somalia origin or just recient incidents because of the Somalia Civil war ? Is this a War on Terrorism list ? rkmlai (talk) 00:55, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Ah yes... I suggested the move because it seemed that "Somali pirates" might also lead to inaccuracies because pirates in that region are not necessarily all Somali. How'bout "captured in the Western Indian Ocean"? Or should we just move it back and make sure that we note early on that "Somali pirates" is a convenient shortcut and should be interpreted with due care? Pascal.Tesson (talk) 00:52, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

List of pirated ships held off the coast of Somalia? It's not a particularly endearing name, but I agree the current name is an issue that should be addressed. - auburnpilot talk 00:53, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

The original name still sounds best to me. "Somali pirates" seems to also cover "pirates who are not ethnic Somalis but operate out of Somalia", with perhaps some content stating that the article includes these people as well, though I haven't read anything suggesting that they form a signficant proportion of the pirates. The parallel that springs to mind is non-citizen, legal residents who join the US army but are still referred to as "American soldiers". We could also use the title of the main article Piracy in Somalia in Ships captured in piracy in Somalia, but that is as awkward as the other suggestions. - BanyanTree 01:29, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

meh... I proposed the move but I think Banyan Tree is right: it shouldn't have been moved in the first place. Simple is good. I'll switch it back. Pascal.Tesson (talk) 03:49, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

The thing is it seems the nationality of the pirates are not necessarily Somali in origin. Pirates to operate from Somalia. Maybe the name should reflect this instead. "List of ships captured by pirates operating from Somali" or even perhaps "List of ships captured by east African pirates". Honestly I could care less of the name. -- Cat ^chi? 06:05, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Incosistency

The inclusion of the Seabourn Spirit is incosistent with the article title.--TheFEARgod (Ч) 10:03, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

"attacked by" instead of "captured by", then? --SV Resolution(Talk) 17:22, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I supposed "attacked" would make sense. But I've been wrong on a rename already, so I'll let someone else move the article. Pascal.Tesson (talk) 23:18, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

"captured or attacked" doesn't make sense. It should just be "attacked". Any captured ship should be "attacked" prior to being captured unless the ones captured laid anchor in front of the pirate docks and begged to be taken hostage... -- Cat ^chi? 09:56, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

Moved, with foreboding. We've managed to argue over "Somali" and "captured/attacked" so far; anyone want to start an argument over "list", "ships" or "pirates"? ;) - BanyanTree 02:32, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

headers

Separating the years with headers is a good move. It's easier to maneuver between smaller tables. --Rosiestep (talk) 22:48, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

That's what I thought. It also makes it easier to add new boxes. Do we want to further break up 2008? Spencer^T♦C 02:34, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

It isn't like only one or two ships got attacked in 2005. We merely do not have those covered and back then media attention was slim. This list is incomplete and such a decision should come only after the article is properly expanded IMHO. I like the yearly splits very much as well. I actualy was gonna do it but you have beaten me to it -- Cat ^chi? 09:55, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

More

Here's a list of the 10 currently (as of Nov. 18) pirate-held ships that have been hijacked: [1]. This might be useful. Spencer^T♦C 02:38, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

Greek ship released

[2] --TheFEARgod (Ч) 09:51, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

We do not even have it on the article as "captured" :P -- Cat ^chi? 09:58, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

Ship classes

There are a few non-linked references like fishing boats which do have an article (Fishing vessel). I'd like some help in hunting these down. -- Cat ^chi? 17:19, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

Article needs expansion

Article covers only a minority of the incidents. We need the internet mined for info. UN should have a list of attacks somewhere as most/all hijackings are on international waters which is UN territory. -- Cat ^chi? 17:19, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

I'd be happy to help. There's a nice listing of the ships currently hijacked at: [3]. There's a very nice site at [4] as well. Spencer^T♦C 21:20, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

I've sent for and received a detailed piracy report from the IMB, so I hope to update the article very soon. (If anyone else wants to see the report, submit your email here, at the IMB website, and one will be sent to you). Spencer^T♦C 04:11, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

Not every incident is linked

Not every incident article is linked. We seem to have lots of articles on individual hijackings. Each should be linked properly meaning I should be able to tell an article for it exists. I am open to suggestions on the best way to do this. -- Cat ^chi? 17:19, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

Links to template please

Every article relevant to Somali pirates should be in the navigation Template:Piracy in Somalia. -- Cat ^chi? 17:19, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

running tally

I added something in the lead to keep a running tally. It would be nice to have this as the intro. In turn it can be updated with the latest news. (of course it would also mean the article has to be on the ball) Lihaas (talk) 22:17, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

I don't think this is a good idea. First, Wikipedia is not news. Second, news reports released around the same time aren't even reporting the same numbers (e.g. compare articles from Fox News vs. The Guardian). Switzpaw (talk) 09:45, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

Found in the tally: "Pirates have suffered health problems including hair loss and even death, suggesting that could be carrying chemical munitions or radioactive materials."[54] 24.97.230.243 (talk) 16:45, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

There is possible contradictions. I suppose it's fair game for removal. Lihaas (talk) 00:11, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

FV Ekawat Nava 5

I think the entry for the INS Tabar should be changed to FV Ekawat Nava 5. I also found a photo of the Ekawat Nava 5 on fire here if someone wants to take the time to upload it. – Zntrip 04:52, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

I agree. For the pic, are Indian Defence Ministry images free? I can't find any information on their website. Spencer^T♦C 15:14, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

I updated it per this discussion (although I noticed it after I made the change) :) -- Cat ^chi? 12:34, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

Because I've found a source for coordinates of some of the attacks, you can see a map of the attacks if you click "Map of all coordinates" in the upper right hand corner at List_of_ships_attacked_by_Somali_pirates#List_of_ships_captured_or_attacked_off_of_Somali_coast. Spencer^T♦C 23:06, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

File on toolserv seems to be deleted or moved. The link does not work. -- Cat ^chi? 13:50, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

http://unosat.web.cern.ch/unosat/asp/getItem.asp?item=Information%20Release%20-%20Hijacked%20Vessels%20off%20Somali%20Coasts-979852329.EML

LOTS OF ATTACKS O_O; -- Cat ^chi? 22:34, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

Are you sure it doesn't work? I just tried it and it worked. Try: [5]. Spencer^T♦C 01:38, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

I am unhappy with a Google maps link. The blank map should be marked IMHO. Individual attacks should ideally be clickable too. -- Cat ^chi? 18:20, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

You only get a blank map? No pushpins with each location of the attacks? Spencer^T♦C 20:48, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Lets forget about Google maps for a second. The blank map I mean is this: Image:Somali Piracy Map.png. Consider how the image at Europe#Definition links to individual articles. I want to see a combination of those two. :) -- Cat ^chi? 21:54, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Oh and about Google maps. It wasn't working a while back ago and works fine now. Maybe the toolserver was down or something. -- Cat ^chi? 22:03, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Just a hint, if you have decimal coordinates, you can still use them in the coord template, but use the format=DMS switch. Then Geohack will do the conversions and it's guaranteed to be correct. --smadge1 (talk) 22:27, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Also, in order for the "View all coordinates" in Google Maps, you're supposed to use the name= parameter for the coord template. Give each coord a descriptive or useful name (ie, date, ship name, etc) using the name= parameter, and it will be much easier to determine each incident on the big map. Otherwise, they all inherit the page name... --smadge1 (talk) 22:31, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure why it's not working... This is a "View all coordinates" for this page. --smadge1 (talk) 22:43, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

The suda.co.uk utility seems to work better... View All Coordinates. --smadge1 (talk) 23:01, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

I noticed a http://www.icc-ccs.org/index.php?option=com_fabrik&view=visualization&controller=visualization.googlemap&Itemid=89&phpMyAdmin=F5XY3CeBeymbElbQ8jr4qlxK1J3 -- Cat ^chi? 17:11, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

The column header should be renamed to "Location".. There are some incidents where precise coordinates are not available, but we can give the region where it occurred. Switzpaw (talk) 06:40, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

Find images

We need more images on the list. Please help freely licensed images of the ships. -- Cat ^chi? 13:57, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

IMO source

The Internation Maritime Organisatio has a section of its website devoted to international piracy. The index can be found here. Mjroots (talk) 07:13, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

List of ships attacked by Somali pirates that are still captive

I started a list for the ships currently held captive. This should make updating them much easier. -- Cat ^chi? 17:08, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

I have to admit, I don't understand. Why would updating become easier if we now have to update two pages with the same information (for captive ships)? Switzpaw (talk) 08:26, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

That name, I'm afraid, doesn't meet WP:Naming conventions. I have re-named it to "List of ships held by Somali pirates", although that doesn't sound so good either... --haha169 (talk) 05:41, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

MV Adina

MV Adina was released without ransom. In this diff, White Cat says "Adding in ransom back. Evidently it was released without payment BUT at a point a ransom was demanded. Please document issues like this in the future. See the diff." If the demanded ransom value was relevant, it belongs in the detail text. The conclusion of the event was that there was no ransom paid. I don't see the need to put the demanded ransom in that column, other than editors like to put numbers in boxes where they think there should be numbers. Anyone else think that the ransom column should be used for paid ransoms instead of demanded ransoms? Switzpaw (talk) 19:20, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

I think the demanded ransom makes more sense. We do not always know the amount of money paid which is private information (we cannot see the transaction) but we almost always know the amount of money demanded which is public information. -- Cat ^chi? 17:11, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

So IMHO it is original research for us to declare the amount paid... -- Cat ^chi? 21:16, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

We weren't there when the pirates demanded the money, either. If it's REPORTED as paid or demanded, it's not original research. If the amount paid is reported as unknown, it's unknown. Switzpaw (talk) 09:25, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

In general sources do not talk about the amount of money paid but the amount demanded. They do so so as not to make unintentional mistakes. For example the pirates may demand 2MILs but settle with 1 MIL. The payer would not make that public as it is bad publicity. Newspapers may learn that a ransom was indeed paid but the actual amount may stay as "unknown". -- Cat ^chi? 00:36, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

You are correct in that the demanded figure is what is more often published. Here is where I'm coming from: I think it's a bad editorial decision to report the demanded figure on account that it is the figure that's more available. The amount actually paid is more important to know to get a sense of how profitable piracy is in the region. And if the amount actually paid is unknown in >15% of the cases, it shouldn't be standardized as a column in the table. Switzpaw (talk) 08:44, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

I have updated the column header to say "Ransom Demanded" so it's clear that the value reflects the ransom demanded instead of the amount actually paid. Switzpaw (talk) 09:43, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

Thats fine. I do not feel it is necessary but I don't oppose it either. -- Cat ^chi? 00:36, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

Question for you: instead of listing all of the demanded ransoms in a table cell, how about we report the most recently demanded figure? It may serve as a better approximation for the amount actually paid, and it'll prevent table bloat. Switzpaw (talk) 08:48, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

Fine by me provided the gradual changes in demanded ransom amounts is covered in the larger text box (short description part). Ukrainian ship case is looking UGLY with so many ransom demands. -- Cat ^chi? 00:42, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

MS Athena

Does the MS Athena fall within the scope of this article? Mjroots (talk) 07:42, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

Yes. -- Cat ^chi? 15:49, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

Template and microformat

The template used for table rows in this article now emits an hCalendar microformat. This however, requires the use of {{Start date}} for date entry, and ether is discussion about whether that template's format is acceptable, Please join in. Andy Mabbett (User:Pigsonthewing); Andy's talk; Andy's edits 22:37, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

Bad coordinates

Resolved

 – Template fixed; decimal seconds converted to legal values

• MV Amiya Scan — 13°37′16″N 050°49′80″E
• MV Lehmann Timber — 13°20′10″N 048°58′77″E
• MV Stella Maris — 13°99′16″N 050°03′47″E
• MV Thor Star — 13°81′38″N 049°45′14″E
• MT Stolt Valor — 13°91′34″N 049°09′75″E (also given as 13°34.91′N 49°09.75′E)

Minutes and seconds have to be in the range of 0 ≤ [m,s] < 60. I don't know if these are typos, or should be decimal minutes (e.g. 050°49.80′E) or decimal degrees (e.g. 13.9916°N).
—WWoods (talk) 17:40, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

I wrote a script to parse that straight from the IMO data set.. Will check it later tonight. Switzpaw (talk) 18:12, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

Ok, the problem was that I was using decimal seconds. I don't understand how the minutes were transposed with the seconds. Here is the code for Stella Maris coords:

 |lat_d=13
 |lat_m=16
 |lat_s=99
 |lat_NS=N

Switzpaw (talk) 18:23, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

Missing ships

I got a 2007 piracy report from the IMB, and it has more ships we need. For more info, try searching the ship name on Google.

Hijackings/Attacks (2007):

• Nimatullah
• Mariam Queen
• Al-Caqiq
• Ching Fong Hwa
• Almarjan Done

Hijackings/Attacks (2008):

• Rockall
• Brum Ocean
• Lina 2
• Great Creation

Spencer^{Merry Christmas!} 17:28, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

Bahamas registered ships

The flag displayed in the case of ships registered in the Bahamas is incorrect. Instead of , the correct flag is . The Bahamas flag is correct if the owner is based in the Bahamas but ship is registered elsewhere. Mjroots (talk) 12:54, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

Yep. --86.29.244.147 (talk) 12:38, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

Category

Please see Talk:Piracy#Category_for_pirate_ships.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 04:04, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

Minimum info?

Hey folks. What is the "minimum" we need on an attack to list it? I have information (which I posted) on a event on the 10th of April, where an attack was thwarted... but next to nothing is known about the ship that was attacked, only that the attacked happened and who thwarted it. Is this of value? Observer31 (talk) 00:21, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

Purple background to references section

The template is carrying over the purple background into the references section. Anyone got any idea how to fix this? {{clear}} doesn't seem to work. Mjroots (talk) 12:06, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

 Done I figured it out :) Mjroots (talk) 12:15, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

References

I've formatted all the refs that weren't formatted and still work, and marked the dead links. Can we try to find some sources to replace the dead links? Mjroots (talk) 13:52, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

Scope of list

The lead states "since 2005", however, there is evidence of earlier attacks. This source mentions at attack on MV Aspidoforos on 6 October 1998. Are earlier reports worth including in the list? Mjroots (talk) 09:29, 30 December 2009 (UTC)