Jump to content

Talk:List of saints of Ireland

Page contents not supported in other languages.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Saints post 1000

[edit]

Is it intentional that "later day saints" (pun intended) such as Lórcan and Máel Máedóc Ua Morgair are left out? In that case a chronological definition should be added to the lede. Finn Rindahl (talk) 12:38, 16 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

You are mighty quick! The person who started the list used the old Catholic Encyclopedia, which is quite inefficient (not to say unreliable) for these purposes. I then complemented the list by drawing in the main on the ODNB biographies for saints of Leinster, Mide, etc. (see also Category:Medieval Irish saints), but as you noticed, these articles are pretty much confined to the earlier middle ages. Since there aren't that many post-1000 saints, I'd say we could just as well include the lot, say until 1536 or so. I'll give it some (further) thought. Cavila (talk) 12:50, 16 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I noticed you linked to this elsewhere, and curiousity is my main driving force around here :) I don't suppose there are to may after 1536 either (Category:Irish_Roman_Catholic_saints), so perhaps no time-frame limitation at all? Finn Rindahl (talk) 12:58, 16 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Sounds alright to me. On a related note, it would be brilliant if the table could be sorted by (supposed) time-frame in addition to the default alphabetical arrangement. I've used Template:Dts for the feast-days, but I'll still have to sift through the Sorting templates to see if it's possible for year ranges as well. Cavila (talk) 13:12, 16 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Hm, currently the table seem to be sortable by name only, not quite sure what is wrong with the code... Finn Rindahl (talk) 13:27, 16 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Could be due to this I suppose...Finn Rindahl (talk) 13:44, 16 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Yup, I was having performance issues which are probably related to server maintenance, too. In fact, I'm going to call it a day and leave the list for another time. Cavila (talk) 13:50, 16 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Fixed it! The lower cells were missing so it had nothing to do with performances issues. The issues I experienced were related to one of the new Gadgets. Cavila (talk) 18:39, 16 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Cavila, do you feel a column for shrines/cult centres would be useful, as in List of Anglo-Saxon saints? Incidentally, I avoided death years/specific dates in that because over the whole table it didn't appear to be useful ... most dates aren't known (including for those saints with 'traditional' widely believed death-dates) and thus there is little benefit from sorting column. There is a similar problem for centuries of death, but in general more use can be had. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 18:33, 16 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, somewhere in the text I left a (hidden) note to myself that the saint's principal foundations, or churches which are otherwise associated with the saint (e.g. through burial, translation, shrines, etc.), should be mentioned in a separate column rather than in the column for further comments. So yes, we're getting there in the end. How to represent the possible dates for a saint's lifetime ("floruit" is not quite the term I was after) is one thing I'll have to look into more carefully, but your solution of sticking to the century in which a saint is supposed to have died might just work. Thanks for the heads up. Cavila (talk) 19:27, 16 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps Dúnchad mac Cinn Fáelad should be included? Finn Rindahl (talk) 09:48, 17 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know how many of the early abbots of Iona are somehow commemorated as saints (I suspect most if not all of them), but at least Dúnchad has an entry for 25 March in the Félire Óengusso, one of the earliest Irish martyrologies. No doubt there are many more saints missing. Take a look, for instance, at the volumes of O'Hanlon's Lives of Irish saints (available from archive.org), a completist venture which lists about five saints on average per feast-day - now multiply that by the number of days in a year! Anyway, sheer numbers aside, the saints of Iona are on my priority list as they should be. Thanks for the reminder, Cavila (talk) 10:53, 17 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
This article, "Seventh-century Iona abbots in Scottish placenames", shows cult evidence for some of them. For the AS list I'm actually dealing with the problem of whether or not to include people venerated as saints [if only occasionally] in martyrologies and resting-place lists but not thought of as such in modern literature. Examples: King Arthur (unprinted 'Catalogus Sanctorum in Anglia Pausantium' in BL, MS Harl. 3776 & Lambeth Palace Library MS 99), Æthelstan (same), Ælfred (same), and so on ... Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 11:16, 17 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
That's useful stuff. In early Irish sources, I don't come across many secular figures such as kings who are also up there with the saints, not even a bishop-king like Cormac mac Cuilennáin I think, though there are a few of them. But there are some whose status as a saint may be fairly marginal vis-a-vis other achievements, e.g. as a scholar or poet. Also, not every saint is lucky to enjoy the full package - a church, a cult, miracles, an extant vita, a feast-day (one which is actually celebrated), relics and shrines - but if secondary sources say someone was regarded or venerated as a saint, that would be sufficient for me I guess. Unfortunately, there's no real modern handlist of Irish saints I'm aware of, though there are many useful resources available (ODNB is convenient as always, as is the index to collections like Studies in Irish hagiography, etc.). Any suggestions for Category:Medieval Irish saints on the Continent? Cavila (talk) 18:24, 17 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Probably unlikely I'd think of any off the top of my head you've not already thought of. I don't suppose St Malachy counts? For the AE sources we're lucky with Blair's handlist ... i.e. we don't have to ignore primary sources claiming something just because a secondary one hasn't noted it. I agree that if someone is famous and not known as a saint, they probably shouldn't be counted as one as far as templates and categories count, though of course in lists with notes columns they can always be italicised with a note adding the detail. As a related problem, I've been noticing a lot of 'Scottish' and 'Irish' saints of the Continent who are clearly not of that origin, with Germanic names and so on. In Scotland and Northumbrian (Bega, Baldred, and so on) there was a similar tendency to invent Irish origins for saints ... an Irish origin is even given in the Scottish Life of St Cuthbert. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 15:24, 18 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Keep an eye out for

[edit]

Pádraig Ó Riain, A dictionary of Irish saints, soon to be published by Four Courts Press (it's scheduled for a release in October 2011). Source: http://www.fourcourtspress.ie/product.php?intProductID=1051. I've got high hopes for this one. Cavila (talk) 13:39, 12 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Catholic Online

[edit]

the Orga Catholic Online is well representated in the Footnotes-Section and also in the External Links. But: WHO IS Catholic online? - They have a telephone number on their site and an email-adress - that's it. They are registred anonymous on "Perfect Privacy LLC" - They have a shop but they don't tell anybody to whom he is paying his money - and the shop has a different url. Nobody knows if this is the same Owner than the original Site.

This Site is more than only suspect under this conditions. Is a anonymous site good enough as a source for Wikipedia? I didn't see this - under this circumstances I even wouldn't buy anything from this anonymous and mysterious website/shop. -- Hartmann Schedel cheers 18:33, 25 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

List of saints of Ireland

[edit]

I note that St. Columbanus is not on this list of Irish Saints. Is there any reason for this exclusion? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.224.194.92 (talk) 21:21, 21 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe because "Columbanus's name is not to be found in the Felire Oengusso or the Martyrology of Tallaght"[1], and Tallaght is used as authority for a "short list" of saints??
Liban (mermaid) aka St. Murgein/Murgeilt is not in the current list either. She does not appear in Tallaght, but is listed in the martyrologies of Gorman (1170) and Drummond (after 1170) that derives from it.[2] --Kiyoweap (talk) 05:17, 2 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

NLIST

[edit]

What is the inclusion criteria for the "Other Holy People" sub-section of the "Venerable" section? What is the measure of "holiness"? Are these list members discussed as a group or set somewhere outside Wikipedia? (As might be expected by WP:NLIST?) Are these list members all notable to the extent that they do/can/should have their own articles? (As might be expected by WP:CSC?) If not, what is WP:LISTCRITERIA? And can it be expressed in the "intro" to that (sub)section? So it is clear what members can/should be included? If not, why do we have that list? (And, notwithstanding the fact that almost NONE of the list members have any references to support inclusion, how do we justify or verify the current members?) Would be interested to hear other thoughts so can gain some consensus on how to improve/support that section... Guliolopez (talk) 17:35, 28 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  • Bump. While I have not heard any thoughts on this issue, and unless there are concerns with the approach, it seems that (at least) we should remove the list members that either have no articles (and so fail NLIST and NN) and those list members where the linked article makes no mention of the subject being considered for veneration/beatification/canonisation/etc (and so falling short even a very broad interpretation of the LISTCRIT we find at the top of the article). For clarity, from the current members, that would leave the top three (Organ/Kelly/Crockett). As these are the only three members with linked articles that mention a proposed or speculated "opening of a Cause". As above, thoughts/input is, of course, very much welcome. Guliolopez (talk) 01:42, 3 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • OK. Not having heard any other thoughts, I have (as above) removed those entries for which we have no articles and/or (where we do have articles) where there is no mention of a proposed/speculated cause for canonisation/veneration/beatification/etc. Guliolopez (talk) 13:56, 6 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:List_of_saints_of_Ireland&oldid=1245538084"