Talk:List of oldest surviving ships

Ships not included

• 1st century AD - Nemi ships (mostly destroyed by fire in 1944, but some parts such as charred timber, bronzes and an anchor survived)
• 81 AD-4th century AD - Mainz shipwrecks (only small part of hulls are preserved)
• 9th to 10th century - Ladby ship (very little wood remaining)
• 14th century - Miedziowiec (Part of the hull remains polish wiki article says about 25%.)
• 1655 - HMS Royal Charles (stern plate is preserved)
• 1672 - Kronan (various artifacts like the cannons and decorations are preserved in Sweden)
• 1694 - La Réale (stern decorations are preserved)
• 1756 - HMS Namur About 25% of her original hull frames are preserved at Chatham Historic Dockyard.
• 1757 - Machault (prow, anchor, rudder, and one side of the ship reside in a museum.)
• 1778 - Amphion (part of stern and it's figurehead are preserved)
• 1800 - HMS Implacable (stern decorations and part of the stern are preserved and the figurehead is preserved)
• 1813 - USS Niagara (1813) - (Completely rebuilt)
• 1819 - Souverain (stern decoration plate is preserved)
• 1843 - USS Michigan (a small part of the bow section is preserved)
• 1851 - Radetzky (steamship) - Original destroyed in 1924
• 1853 - Arabia (sank on September 5, 1856. Small part of the stern was recovered)
• 1853 - Fethiye (Some stern decorations preserved at Istanbul Naval Museum)
• 1856 - HSwMS Stockholm (Stern decorations are preserved along with the figurehead)
• 1862 - USS Monitor (sank on New Year’s Eve of 1862. Turret recovered along with some other artifacts)
• 1863 - HMY Alberta (Deckhouse is preserved at the Osborne House)
• 1865 - Aziziye (stern and bow decorations preserved)
• 1865 - Orhaniye (stern decorations preserved)
• 1866 - BAP Independencia (her anchor, one of her cannons and a piece of the deck are on display.)
• 1882 - SS M.M. Drake (sank in 1901, Various artifacts reside in different areas of Michigan like the rudder, anchor and windlass)
• 1893 Britannia - (Replicated with some original parts used.)
• 1893 - USS Oregon (BB-3) (several parts including the mast are preserved as memorials)
• 1895 - SMS Wien (only a small part of the stern is preserved)
• 1897 - HMS Vindictive (a small part of the bow section is preserved)
• 1904 - USS Tennessee (Bow decorations are mounted on a concrete mockup of it's bow.)
• 1906 - Yelcho (a small part of the bow section is preserved)
• 1911 - SMS Viribus Unitis(a small part of the bow is preserved. The anchor also survives to this day.)
• 1911 - Thomas Walters (pilothouse preserved)
• 1912 - HMAS Sydney (1912)(Various parts of the ship survive like the prow, foremast, one of the derricks, a compass stand and a 6 inch gun)
• 1912 - SM U-20 (Germany) (conning tower and gun are preserved)
• 1913 - España (plates of armor survive presently)
• 1913 - Nasookin(upper works preserved as a house.)
• 1914 - Issaquah (Both pilot houses are preserved)
• 1915 - USS Arizona (BB-39) - (Sunk)
• 1915 - HMS E24 (Conning tower is preserved)
• 1916 - HMS E17 (conning tower raised and preserved as a memorial.)
• 1916 - HMS E50 (conning tower raised and preserved)
• 1916 - SM U-20 (Austria-Hungary) (conning tower is preserved)
• 1917 - Irvin L. Clymer (pilothouse preserved)

I am fully open to future consensus on including these ships, the "rebuilt" criteria came from the previous structure and in my opinion is a bit flawed. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 20:13, 5 July 2019 (UTC)

I feel like some ships that were rebuilt but retain part of their original features is fine to add. Ubersonic Gaming (talk) 00:36, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

This list should be updated in terms of what ships are not included Ubersonic Gaming (talk) 22:02, 7 January 2022 (UTC)

Lengths

Shall we standardise on lengths (feet/metres) in whole numbers, for neatness? Those who need something more precise will of course find it in the linked article. Davidships (talk) 09:56, 30 March 2021 (UTC)

Ships that are still debatable to add

Here is a list of ships that should be added but need more verification of whether they meet the criteria of being a survivor.

• 1865 - HMS Vixen (partially submerged wreck)
• 1868 - HMVS Cerberus Beached as a breakwater in 1926. Listed as a historical cultural heritage site.
• 1879 - Solano (partially scrapped and scuttled as a breakwater, some structural components are still visible.)
• 1882 - Wendouree (beached hulk, remains are beached next to the Adolphe)
• 1884 - HMQS Gayundah (beached hulk)
• 1884 - Governor R. M. McLane (Partially submerged hulk)
• 1884 - HMAS Protector (partially submerged hulk)
• 1890 - Eduard Bohlen (beached hulk)
• 1891 - Galilee (bow and stern preserved and hull beached in 1933)
• 1895 - Saratovskiy Ledokol (Sank in 1968, in the process of being raised and will eventually be turned into a memorial. Salvage status is unknown as of 2021.)
• 1902 - Adolphe (beached hulk, remains are beached next to Wendouree)
• 1902 - Swiks (beached wreck, sank on 21 December 1926. One side is still intact)
• 1902 - Cora F. Cressey(beached hulk)
• 1904 - SS Cabrillo (beached hulk)
• 1904 - USS Charleston (C-22) (beached hulk, hull still intact as of 2003)
• 1905 - SS Maheno (beached hulk)
• 1910 - HMAS Parramatta (D55) (partially scrapped, Some parts were used for a memorial included the bow and stern sections and the anchor and mast also survive)
• 1914 - SMS Regensburg (Remains are visible at low tide)
• 1916 - SM UC-61 (Germany) (Beached in Wissant France, remains visible during low tide)
• 1917 - HMS J7 (beached as a breakwater)

Ubersonic Gaming (talk) 01:04, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

The article reads All of the ships listed below include a fully intact or mostly intact hull. A good number of those above come nowhere near meeting that criterion (as well as a number which have already been included). Davidships (talk) 00:13, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

you've got a point. Some ships on this list only survive with just small structural features. this list however was redesigned from an older version of this talk page which I revamped since it was originally for ships that we should add. some of the ships like Un’yō Maru were from an older version of this talk page. Ubersonic Gaming (talk) 19:24, 10 July 2021 (UTC)

Should we add a list of partially surviving ships? It would be for ships that have surviving non structural components. Implacable18 (talk) 03:03, 11 July 2021 (UTC)

I guess, if the ship is reduced to a certain length or just a section(submarine conning towers could count too), then that could work. I'm still thinking on that idea of adding a list of partial surviving ships. With non structural parts, that's somewhat a disupted topic but correct me if i'm wrong. Ubersonic Gaming (talk) 04:48, 11 July 2021 (UTC)

I suppose that all entries here and in the article itself that do not meet the criteria should be disputed - or the criteria should be revised. I am reluctant to just delete entries without a proper discussiion but, for starters, all those of which purely decorative features only are preserved should be removed, eg HMS Royal Charles (1655), French galley La Réale (1694), Amphion, HMS Implacable (1805). Davidships (talk) 14:57, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

Sydney Heritage Fleet

The Sydney Heritage Fleet includes a number of ships, e.g. the Waratah steam tug, 1902, that should be included. https://www.shf.org.au/explore-the-fleet/our-operational-vessels/

Amandajm (talk) 12:46, 1 May 2021 (UTC)

Website with more ships

I found this website with some more ships we can add.

Cool. That means we can find more surviving ships and add them to the list Ubersonic Gaming (talk) 18:11, 7 July 2021 (UTC)

I found another website here but I can't find any info on some of the ships listed.

photos

I wonder whether the page would look better (at least on a PC screen) if there were three photos at the top of the page to the right, to give a flavour of what is covered. At present the Pesse canoe seems rather lost in white space. Davidships (talk) 09:08, 17 July 2021 (UTC)

I agree, three photos could give readers a sense of whats included on the list. I suggest the Oseberg Ship as a representation for recovered shipwrecks and older vessels, and either Tarihi Kadırga, Vasa, HMS Victory, or USS Constitution to represent the age of sail. As for the third image, Im not sure. Implacable18 (talk) 00:04, 5 May 2023 (UTC)

Ships that need more info to be found on them

This is a list of ships that qualify or may qualify for inclusion, but need more information to be found on them:

• 8000-7000 BC - Kuahuqiao Canoe (resides in a museum in Hangzhou China, however despite being 8,000 years old, information about it's origins are still unknown)
• 2975–2935 BC - Den Solar Boat(s) (Remains of one or two ancient Egyptian boats.)
• 2500 BC - Khufu Second Solar ship (currently in pieces but will be assembled in the Grand Egyptian Museum)
• 320 AD-1250 AD - Butuan Boats (not enough info can be found on them)
• 959? - Strupino monoxylon (only info on it is from a wiki commons image)
• 1300s - Les Sorres X (raised in the 1990s and currently resides in a museum in spain. I can't find enough information about it's history.)
• 1400s - Anaweka canoe (remains of a Polynesian voyaging canoe, currently undergoing conservation)
• 1500s - Bom Jesus (little is known about ships early history and Wrecks condition is unknown)
• 1558 - Stora Kraveln Elefanten (Swedish wiki article says wrecks stern was apparently raised and on display at the Sjöhistoriska Museet in Stockholm, however I can’t find any info on its current state.)
• 1782? - Suppanahong (Originally built by King Rama I in 1782 and apparently rebuilt by King Rama V in 1911, however sources vary and this may be a separate and totally different ship)
• First half of the 19th century - Scale’ Reale (Currently at the The ships pavilion in the Venice Arsenal, it has 18 oars. Image can be found here, and info can be found here.)
• 1800s - Te Winika (Maori war canoe in Waikato Museum)
• 1871 - SMS Maros (After doing some of my own research it seems like Maros was extant as an elevator ship as of 1980 (with her more famous sistership Leitha), possibly under the name FK-202.)
• 1896 - Ossero (Dalmat) (may or may not be currently sunk, I will have to research her current status)
• 1906 - Mary E (capsized in the Kennebec River on July 30 and is still underwater. I’m not sure if or when it will be raised)
• 1914 - USS Edithena (SP-624) (little is known about it's later history)
• 1916 - Eugen Stihi (stricken in 2003, could be turned into a museum in the future))
• 1916 - HTMS Phra Ruang (Formally HMS Radiant, possibly afloat as a hulk in 2000, but final fate is unknown)
• 1918 - El Don (Extant as of 1951)
• 1918 - Sublocotenent Ghiculescu (Allgedly stricken in 2002, Later history is unknown)
• There are about 20 royal chaiques dating from the 1860s to the early 1910s in the Istanbul Naval Museum, more info can be found here.

Implacable18 (talk) 01:57, 28 July 2021 (UTC)

here's a link that might come in handy: http://yenikapibatiklari.com/batiklar-liste Ubersonic Gaming (talk) 00:38, 1 August 2021 (UTC)

Here's a link with more info on Les Sorres X.

I found a wiki page for Les Sorres X here.

References

Ships we should add

This is a list of ships that need to be added.

• 400 AD - Björkebåten
• 700s AD - Tunabåten
• Song Dynasty - Xiaobaijiao No.1 (image can be found here: https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Xiaobaijiao_No.1
• 11th century AD - Wando Ship (Mostly intact hull. On display at the National Maritime Museum, South Korea. I think this is an image)
• 1000-1250 Stockbåten
• 1897 - Howth 17 class Keelboats
• 1910 - Tally Ho
• Ferriby Boats

Implacable18 (talk) 03:43, 1 August 2021 (UTC)

A couple of active former fishing sloops, both built in 1884: Johanna and Westward Ho. Davidships (talk) 21:50, 20 October 2021 (UTC)

Another suggestion: the enclosed lifeboat Uræd, built at Ålesund in 1903, sailed to the USA the following year and preserved in the Ålesund fishery museum - see Ole Brude and NRK report (No); image at c:File:Brudeegget.JPG. Davidships (talk) 23:26, 28 January 2022 (UTC)

About the HTMS Phra Ruang

According to some Google Earth satellite imagery and photos seen of the “Phra Ruang”, I think It’s extant as a hulk since the ship’s name was previously found in past photos in Chumphon Thailand. It’s supposedly used for the PRINCE CHUMPHON SHRINE. Any more info would help. Here’s a link to a blogspot post which has images of the funnel. http://thaigunship.blogspot.com/2010/10/?m=1 Ubersonic Gaming (talk) 21:58, 25 August 2021 (UTC)

I researched the fate of the HTMS Phra Ruang a few months ago, and found that the ship in the PRINCE CHUMPHON SHRINE is actually the 1930s-era Italian-built torpedo boat Chumphon. I also found out that the similar looking HMS Minstrel (a WW2 era minesweeper) is also being used as a training hulk to this day. I also found some images of Rhra Ruang as a hulk with her funnels removed from the 1960s from this website. Implacable18 (talk) 20:30, 26 August 2021 (UTC)

Where did you see the Phra Ruang on Google Maps? It would help if I could pinpoint her location if she’s still extant. Implacable18 (talk) 04:15, 27 August 2021 (UTC)

Allegedly this is where the ship possibly resides. 10°23'58"N 99°16'47"E · 73.1 ft Ubersonic Gaming (talk) 17:42, 31 August 2021 (UTC)

After looking at some photo’s from the Krom Luang Chumphon Khet Udomsak Shrine I have confirmed that the ship at the shrine is the 1930s torpedo boat. However I also found that the shrine itself seems to have a mock-up of a ship with the name Phra Ruang, witch could possibly be the reason some sources say Phra Ruang is preserved at the shrine. Implacable18 (talk) 21:49, 31 August 2021 (UTC)

I found another source which possibly holds key information ⇒ https://stefsap.wordpress.com/2015/12/07/the-thai-navy/amp/ Ubersonic Gaming (talk) 03:56, 19 September 2021 (UTC)

Shipwrecks

The article states that Shipwrecks only qualify “As long as they are restored in some way and also put on display as a museum exhibit”. So therefore it seems the Yenikapı shipwrecks wouldn’t qualify, because none of them have been restored or put display as of 2021. Implacable18 (talk) 14:58, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

What about the shipwreck that was discovered in 2010 at the World Trade Center site. I read that it was relocated to a museum in Albany. Ubersonic Gaming (talk) 21:48, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

As for the WTC ship I can’t find out if it’s been put on display yet, but if it has I guess it qualifies. I’m not sure if any of the Yenikapı shipwrecks will be displayed, and I don’t think any have even finished conservation yet. I think we should take them off the list until they are at least fully conserved. Implacable18 (talk) 22:24, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

Salme ships

I cant find any source saying the Salme ships are preserved. So for now Ive removed them from the list

How is a “Surviving” ship defined?

The article states that all the ships on this list ”include a fully intact or partially intact hull“. However, ships such as Elettra and Amphion have both been broken up. In Amphion’s case only the stern is preserved and in Elettra’s case parts of the ship are scattered across Italy. Therefore neither seem to meet the criteria, for a Surviving ship. Because of this I think we should try to come up with some ground rules that describe a surviving ship. Implacable18 (talk) 17:24, 3 October 2021 (UTC)

I agree. This was raised a little while ago (see section "Ships that are still debatable to add" above), but the active editors haven't yet proposed anything. Let's try again. Depending on the conclusion, the article may need renaming. Davidships (talk) 21:21, 3 October 2021 (UTC)

HMS vindictive would not really qualify in the sense that despite the bow, and two other components are preserved. Ubersonic Gaming (talk) 22:00, 7 January 2022 (UTC)

Templates

Should we replace the “N/A” templates with “Unknown” templates? Implacable18 (talk) 02:08, 7 November 2021 (UTC)

Even though defined at the head of the table, "n/a" remains confusing as the abbreviation is also widely used as "not applicable"; so where it means "unknown" why not keep it clear as that, or "not known" if preferred? It is not needed to substitute for lack of photos - an empty box tells the whole story. If "n/a" is retained, I see no reason for using upper case. (I thought it was just a text entry, rather than a template, or have I misuunderstood something?) Davidships (talk) 18:22, 7 November 2021 (UTC)

Noting that you've changed the question, no need for capitalisation at all. Davidships (talk) 17:01, 8 November 2021 (UTC)

Recent discoveries

I recently stumbled upon two articles about old shipwrecks and maybe we could include them later on(depending on whether they are going to preserved or not).

first article: https://www.cnn.com/2021/11/05/us/canoe-wisconsin-lake-mendota-scn-trnd/index.html

second article: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-10087485/Mysterious-40ft-long-shipwreck-Royal-Navy-warship-discovered.html Ubersonic Gaming (talk) 00:19, 12 November 2021 (UTC)

Multiple ship entries

I recently replaced a multiple ship entry I removed a few months ago with four separate entries for each ship. My question is if multiple ship entries be allowed, or should the list only have singular ship entries? Implacable18 (talk) 03:25, 13 December 2021 (UTC)

Sorry - missed this question. I think that a "group entry" is entirely appropriate if the vessels are generically similar and they are (or likely to be) covered by a single linked article. For example, the four Cairo Dahshur Boats, the Mainz Roman ships, or even the perhaps-borderline Skuldelev ships. It does not matter whether each ship has its own image, as more comprehensive material will be at the target article. Davidships (talk) 12:54, 28 December 2021 (UTC)

New inclusion criteria

I have come up with some possible new criteria for including ships:

1. A ship must still be a ship - A ship will qualify for the list if it has not been broken up/destroyed. If a ship was damaged or cut up but later rebuilt (such as Cutty Sark) it still can be included. An example of a ship that wouldn’t be included is Andrea Provana. An exception to this could be ships like the Newport Medieval Ship and Sparrow Hawk which are both going to be reassembled in the near future.

2. Shipwrecks must to still resemble ships - Shipwrecks such as Alkedo or Mary Rose would qualify, but shipwrecks such as Mainz 4 or Ship A that are barely recognizable as ships and have little remaining material would not. This matter may need more discussion as it seems subjective

3. A ship must have enough info on it to be included - Ships with no known information in three or more categories (such as length of current location images would not be subject to this) should be added to the needs more info list on the talk page before the actual article.

Here is a list of ships that will be removed:

• Ship A (Very little of hull remains)
• Mainz Wreck 4 (Very little of hull remains)
• Mainz Wreck 2 (Very little of hull remains)
• Mainz Wreck 1 (Very little of hull remains)
• Haithabu 1 (Very little of hull remains)
• Batavia (Very little of hull remains)
• Andrea Provana (Only conning tower and a small part of the hull remains)

This needs more discussion and I am open to any more ideas on possible criteria. Implacable18 (talk) 06:34, 27 December 2021 (UTC)

I guess the Andrea Provana would have to be removed despite having its tower and lower hull intact Ubersonic Gaming (talk) 17:06, 27 December 2021 (UTC)

Size of List

Whatever the criteria, the list should be made to be more exclusive rather than inclusive. This list is at a whopping 259,155 bytes which causes it to run slowly for some readers (see WP:SIZE). I would even suggest a split of lists by era as this is what reliable sources go by. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 18:31, 27 December 2021 (UTC)

I agree that a split in the lists would be wise, sooner rather than later. Suggest keep all the explanatory material in this article, together with the "Oldest surviving by category" section. Then, perhaps three, daughter list articles: Prehistory-18th century / 19th century / 20th century. Would that be enough to reasonably satisfy size considerations? Davidships (talk) 01:56, 13 January 2022 (UTC)

I was thinking we could split the list into two, and put the WWI era ships in a list called something like “List of surviving WWI era ships” this would bring the list down to about 230,000 bytes (keep in mind my math may be significantly off). Implacable18 (talk) 03:01, 13 January 2022 (UTC)

After we do this we could see how we could divide it into different lists from that Implacable18 (talk) 03:03, 13 January 2022 (UTC)

I don't find "WW1 era ships" a helpful concept at all - it implies that a ship had some involvement with that war just because it was built between two arbitrary dates; and conversely surviving ships actively engaged in that war would not appear if they were built before whatever date is chosen for its beginning. Just a simple cut-off date or two is much simpler, easy for all readers to navigate. (I have taken the liberty of inserting a heading at the changeof subject) Davidships (talk) 20:19, 14 January 2022 (UTC)

Hmm. I think that could work. But won’t that list be for ships that only ‘served’ in the First World War? Ubersonic Gaming (talk) 19:11, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

What do you mean by ships that only ‘served’ in the First World War? Served in what capacity? What if they served at other times (before and/or after)? I thought that this article was to list all surviving ships (=water craft) that still survive, basically arranged chronologically (with other sorting options, though these are not all really functional - eg multiple names for same ship type). I don't see the point of pulling out random ships from the list according to some criteria which unrelated to their age, or to any of the other fields that have been established. Davidships (talk) 01:39, 22 January 2022 (UTC)

Red links for non notable ships

Im not sure if we should put red links for ships that are not notable enough for their own article per WP:N. An example would be the gondola at The Venetian hotel. Implacable18 (talk) 02:04, 1 January 2022 (UTC)

I remember creating articles with the red links and those articles were translated from different language versions of Wikipedia. I plan on converting a red link into a proper article. Ubersonic Gaming (talk) 19:16, 1 January 2022 (UTC)

Red links without citations

I was looking through the list today, and noticed there are a lot of ships with red links that lack citations. I think we should try find sources for ships needing them soon and possibly delete some material that has no source. For example I can’t find anything on the internet about the fishing boat “Frifararen”. Implacable18 (talk) 04:39, 8 January 2022 (UTC)

Here, for starters: Frifararen Davidships (talk) 12:57, 8 January 2022 (UTC)

I’ll try to help Ubersonic Gaming (talk) 22:43, 12 January 2022 (UTC)

MS Mount Washington

It seems large parts of the MS Mount Washington’s hull are from the 1888 steamboat Chateaugay, however her upper works, a 20 ft hull section, and her engines are all from later dates. I am unsure if she should be included. Implacable18 (talk) 04:51, 5 February 2022 (UTC)

Perhaps the test is "If the hull from Chateaugay were sitting onshore would it be included?" As the old 203ft iron hull seems to be essentially complete (albeit with the later midships addition), it would seem to qualify. Davidships (talk) 10:37, 5 February 2022 (UTC)

Salish, Haida and Kwakiutl canoes at Pacific Northwest museums

• all canoes in collections database
• Handout on canoe 1-1963 and replica acquired "late 1800s"

Burke Museum in Seattle has an index of 18 Pacific Northwest canoes that date to c. 1900 at the latest. I think there might be more at the Makah Museum, displaying objects that were buried in a 1750 landslide, but all I could find right now was a pair of replicas. ☆ Bri (talk) 22:39, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

Ships with no evidence of current existence

Is there a reason vessels with no evidence of the current existence (or even existence within the last 30-50 years) are retained on the list instead of the the "Debatable" category on the Talk page? Examples:

• Speeder (motor vessel)
• Susan May (skipjack)
• Katherine M. Lee (schooner)

Fairlane221 (talk) 03:29, 12 March 2023 (UTC)

The List Probably Shouldn't Include Canoes

So, I've returned to Wikipedia after awhile and decided to start working on this article again. I was going over the entries, and I feel including every old canoe expands the scope of this list too much. So, I propose that we remove canoes from the list, but I want some more opinions. Another semi-related issue is that the list needs a new main image(s) since the Pesse canoe has been removed. Implacable18 (talk) 04:26, 4 May 2023 (UTC)

I think if they are notable as determined by reliable sources, then they should be here. See #Salish, Haida and Kwakiutl canoes at Pacific Northwest museums. ☆ Bri (talk) 05:05, 4 May 2023 (UTC)

Re-added Butuan boats

Of the eleven ships in the Butuan archaeological site, 3 have been recovered (Butuan Boats 1, 2, and 5) with the rest still unexcavated or in the process of being excavated (Butuan Boats 4 and 9). Note that these are not shipwrecks, but boat burials.

The list criteria is quite vague. As of now, only Butuan Boat 1 is still on display at the National Museum of the Philippines in Butuan. Butuan Boat 2 is currently fully in storage, but was previously on display at the National Museum of Anthropology (Manila). Both of these ships have been displayed partially assembled at one time or another. You can see the images (sadly we don't have them in Commons yet) in the sources provided ([1], [2], also [3]), which are more substantial than some of the entries here. I assume both still fit the criteria, even if Butuan Boat 2 is in storage right now, as it would be nonsensical to remove and re-add ships every time a museum decides to change up the exhibits.

I removed Butuan Boat 5 because it has only ever been displayed piecemeal, due to mistakes in conservation that warped the wood pieces.  OBSIDIAN†SOUL 20:34, 16 June 2024 (UTC)