Talk:List of most expensive women's association football transfers

WP:FORBESCON

@User:S0091, since you added {{Unreliable sources}} per WP:FORBESCON, I've also flagged the split's source article. Can you please identify which Forbes contributor source violates FORBESCON? There appear to be two, both written by Asif Burhan, who arguably qualifies for the FORBESCON exception as a subject-matter expert per WP:SPS ("whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable, independent publications"; football journalist 2017–22 for Morning Star, itself WP:MREL; cited as a source of first reportage by otherwise IS and/or RS works Optus, Copa90, All for XI, Diario AS, SD Union-Tribune/LA Times). Also, both Forbes contributor articles in the list are published under Forbes SportsMoney, which appears to be a first-party property of Forbes as a news source rather than self-published (cf. SportsMoney Index coverage) and includes Forbes first-party staff (1), making it unclear if the "contributor" byline refers self-publishing or freelance.

I ask this here, knowing that the sources in this specific article can be replaced if necessary, because Burhan's work with Forbes or the Morning Star is also used as a source in many articles (ex. Big Five (association football), Dick, Kerr Ladies 4–0 St Helens Ladies, Selecció Barcelona 0–0 UE Centelles, Vadão, Emma Hayes, 2021–22 FA WSL, 2022–23 FC Barcelona Femení season), and the Alexia Putellas and UEFA Women's Euro 2022 final articles have direct quotes of Burhan's work attributed to him by name. If Burhan is not a subject-matter expert allowing use of his work published on Forbes, many other articles' usage of his work also require re-examination. -Socccc (talk) 18:17, 25 June 2023 (UTC)

Hi @Socccc I debated about this because he is a freelance journalist and there has been debate about what really counts as 'contributor'. At first I was going to add an AfC comment asking about those sources but decided it was better to accept to get it into main space then tag. Thanks for providing some additional clarity about Asif Burhan (there are four by him) and I agree with your assessment so will remove the tag. S0091 (talk) 18:42, 25 June 2023 (UTC)

Breaking out or removing domestic NWSL trades

After doing some research on trades, transfers, and allocation money in the NWSL for Draft:List of National Women's Soccer League transactions 2023, I propose removing internal domestic transactions (trades) between NWSL teams from of this list. They're transactions but not transfers, and the differences are more substantial that just terminology. This distinction is also specific to allocation-money trades between NWSL teams, as transfers with fees from outside of the NWSL operate very differently.

Specifically:

• I propose that the list include transfers of players into or out of the NWSL, but designate via footnote that these transfers are subject to rules specific to the NWSL, and that the NWSL club only indirectly pays or receives any fee, which is in reality paid or received by the NWSL itself.
• I propose that domestic transfers within the NWSL, including those involving only allocation money, are viewed as transactions involving assets that aren't technically currency, and therefore aren't fee-involved transfers per the list's criteria.

Unlike fee-involved transfers:

• NWSL domestic trades don't require player consent.
• NWSL domestic trades can also involve other such non-financial assets that have no set equivalent monetary value, like draft picks, international roster spots, and even the right of an NWSL club to initiate negotiations with a player who isn't already under contract with the NWSL, making the equivalent currency value of the trade effectively incalculable.
• In NWSL domestic trades, no contract changes hands because as a single-entity organization, the NWSL holds all player contracts. Players are employed by the league, not the club to which the league assigns them. Club-specific terms aren't even part of the contract, but are instead submitted to the league, which amends the contract with the club's requests.
• Allocation money are "credits" purchased from the league — they are scrip, not currency. In NWSL domestic trades, this scrip is subject to similar rules as other non-monetary assets like draft picks. Transfers and loans between the NWSL and other leagues are paid with real currency, and by the league, not the club.

For these reasons, no NWSL domestic transfer is meaningfully similar to other leagues' domestic transfers, and listing them alongside transfers muddles this distinction.

Example

To frame this in a relevant situation, should this list include the transfer of Lauren from Madrid CFF of Liga F to the NWSL's Kansas City Current, and if so, how? She's a transfer involving US$100,000 publicly exchanging hands between teams, but under circumstances unusual even for an NWSL transaction:

• North Carolina Courage acquired Lauren's player rights — defined by the NWSL's CBA as "the priority over other (NWSL) Teams to negotiate with a Player on behalf of the League, and/or to direct the League to issue an SPA to a player (emphasis mine). — via discovery.
• Kansas City Current traded US$100,000 in allocation money, among other non-financial assets, to North Carolina Courage in exchange for only those rights.
• Per league rules, neither North Carolina Courage nor Kansas City Current can pay a transfer fee directly to Madrid CFF. The NWSL, the single entity with which all NWSL players sign contracts, performs such transactions using currency paid by teams to acquire "allocation money" credit.
• If the NWSL paid a transfer fee to Madrid CFF, I can't find where it's been made public.

Under how the list is currently composed, this transaction could be listed like Kailen Sheridan's or Ebony Salmon's, both domestic NWSL transactions also involving non-allocation money assets. But it would be confusing even for an NWSL transfer since, unlike Sheridan or Salmon, the $100k transaction took place before Lauren had even been offered an NWSL contract. KC's allocation money transaction was not a fee paid to Madrid CFF, either, nor was it paid to acquire Lauren's contract from North Carolina, making it not meaningfully similar to the other NWSL transactions on the list, much less other transactions not involving the NWSL at all.

Likewise, if hypothetically it's made public that the NWSL did pay a fee of $100,000 or more to Madrid CFF for Lauren, would she then make the list twice — once for her traditional transfer with fee from Madrid CFF to the NWSL, and then again for the trade of her player rights from NC to KC for allocation money credit? The only currency actually changing hands between distinct entities during the entire transaction would be the transfer fee paid by the NWSL to Madrid CFF.

The list has precedent for something similar in Crystal Dunn, listed twice for a three-way domestic transaction over one day involving a team to whom Dunn never had to report. All of the money involved was allocation money credit, resulting in the league effectively paying itself twice to move Dunn from North Carolina to Portland.

Under my proposal, the Lauren transaction — and Dunn's, Sheridan's, Salmon's, and all other domestic NWSL transactions involving allocation money — would be listed separately, either in another section of this article or in an NWSL-specific article similar to List of largest National Football League trades. -Socccc (talk) 20:32, 2 August 2023 (UTC)

I agree that there are significant differences, both in true financial terms and in the way the trades are socially understood. It seems clear that the NWSL trades should be removed from the list that actually involves money. Perhaps splitting to a list of trades, with the top 10 included in its own section at this list, is the best idea. This probably doesn't need a formal RfC and could be seen as an uncontroversial split given the scope is obviously different (NWSL trades cannot be called "expensive" due to the money not really existing, nor "transfers"). If you want to split them out, I'll go to the history of the overall list to recover some of the transfers included (and bumped off the bottom) before the NWSL trades were added. Kingsif (talk) 20:45, 2 August 2023 (UTC)

@Socccc: Were you planning on splitting out the NWSL content yourself? Kingsif (talk) 22:46, 4 August 2023 (UTC)

I can get it — been a busy tournament. -Socccc (talk) 17:44, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

Allocation money trades since August

I was going to add the trade of Mandy Haught to the list, but noticed it hasn't been updated since it was added and I know there have been other allocation money trades since then. I'll add the report for the Haught trade here, and see if I can find more sources to update the list more completely. (Courtesy ping inactive user @Socccc:, who's been involved). Kingsif (talk) 02:41, 13 December 2023 (UTC)

• 12 | Alex Loera | KC Current | Bay FC | Defender | $175 (thousand) | Immunity from Bay FC in 2024 NWSL Expansion Draft | (15 November) 2023 | [1]
• 5 | 2nd-round (15th overall) pick in 2024 NWSL Draft // Immunity from Bay FC in 2024 NWSL Expansion Draft | Bay FC | Racing Louisville | N/A | $235 (thousand) | 3rd-round (34th) pick in 2024 NWSL Draft[note: The cash asset was alternative allocation money, allowing the club to use allocation money above the league's season cap. It was the first trade to involve alternative allocation money.] | (17 November) 2023 | [2] [3]
• 15 | Mandy Haught | Gotham | Utah Royals | Goalkeeper | $150 (thousand) | Immunity from Utah in 2024 NWSL Expansion Draft | (12 December) 2023 | [4]
• 25 | Immunity from Utah in 2024 NWSL Expansion Draft | Utah Royals | Angel City | $100 (thousand) | 2024 international roster spot | (12 December) 2023 | [5]
• 23 | Facilitation of mutually-beneficial trades with Gotham [or:] 28th and 42nd picks in 2024 NWSL Draft from Gotham // Immunity for Gotham from Bay FC in 2024 NWSL Expansion Draft [note: A three-team deal saw Bay FC acquire Ellie Jean from Gotham and $130,000 from Racing Louisville, in return for giving expansion draft protection to Gotham; the cash from Racing Louisville was used to facilitate the trade between Bay FC and Gotham, and Racing Louisville (which already had expansion draft protection from Bay FC)[6] received Gotham's 2nd- and 3rd-round 2024 draft picks in return.] | Bay FC | Racing Louisville | N/A | $130 (thousand) | None | (12 December) 2023 | [7] [8]

• Bay FC received Ellie Jean and $130,000 in a trade with Gotham and Racing Louisville - Jean from Gotham and the money from Racing Louisville. Gotham received expansion draft protection from Bay FC. Louisville received 2nd- and 3rd-round 2024 draft picks from Gotham. This was a three-way trade and Racing Louisville sending money to Bay FC was part of the deal to send Jean to Bay FC.
• Perhaps two/three connected rows could present this trade?

Queens League

The Queens League has started using a trade system, which the Kings League did last year. It's the same market. The system is comparable in operation to the NWSL system but it uses a virtual economy. I.e. there is no transferable value. The trades are labelled as Euros, but it's basically a non-existent credit with no actual Euro value, only being given a label value to make trades more equal for each team.

However, being the same market for both the men and women, every team got the same amount of (virtual) money: 100 million euros. There's been a bunch of trades, and men's and women's players are being traded for similar amounts. These are in the tens of millions. Is the level of equality worth noting? Is the value worth noting? Should a List of Kings League and Queens League transactions article be made, as with the MLS/NWSL transactions?

References

Kingsif (talk) 00:34, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

Sort currency

What should be the default sort currency for the list? It's unclear and undocumented. Not sure where Jessie Fleming should land, for instance. In GBP and Euros she's #11, in USD she's #13, and none of the values indicate whether they're inflation-adjusted (I assume not). -75.164.218.234 (talk) 20:31, 31 January 2024 (UTC)

Great question. The table as it currently stands (and based on what I and 2 other users have done when adding) defaults to the transaction/reported currency. So if the reports give Fleming's transfer in GBP (I think they do) then place it at #11. Perhaps a hidden note should be added. And no, the values are what they were on the day of the transfer (indicated in the date column). Kingsif (talk) 00:43, 1 February 2024 (UTC)

Just to come back and add, I've done a bit of work on this, including moving Fleming up to joint-eighth. While I find The Athletic a reliable source most of the time, even as recently as with the transfer of Ramírez they had a rather random figure that was inconsistent both with what had been previously reported and what was reported by the majority of sources. Kingsif (talk) 00:56, 1 February 2024 (UTC)

Liverpool

The Guardian:

• Sophie Roman Haug ~£100,000 (2023)
• Olivia Smith (soccer) £215,000/€250,000 (2024)

Kingsif (talk) 16:23, 2 July 2024 (UTC)  Done

Ewa Pajor

I see Pajor is listed as <€400,000 per source, however also reportedly it was €500,000 [9][10].

How reliable is the current source [11]? I can't make sense of whether it is an official-ish announcement, or also another reported figure.

Maybe it'd be worth adding a note that it was also reported to be higher than <€400,000? CNC (talk) 13:00, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

• @CommunityNotesContributor: Better source would be the more-certain of €400,000 from Sport's Maria Tikas, who is all but an actual Barcelona mouthpiece on women's transfers. And they confirmed it was not a club record fee, so it can't be €500,000 (which would be more than the €470,000 listed for Walsh). Article in Spanish.
  Also note that the Goal article is from an MLS journalist; it's not RS for this. They also said she was joining Manchester United for €500,000, so... a source we'd use if there wasn't anything better, but generally only Ameé Ruszkai for Goal is RS for women's football in my experience. ESPN pre-reported about Pajor's release clause so I assume they're just sticking with that.
  Contradictory reports aren't new – two threads up you can see how The Athletic under-reported Fleming's, while see in the notes in the article for how Forbes over-reported Walsh's, at least, based on the majority of quality RS's agreeing on a different figure in both those cases. And that's what we have to look at. Kingsif (talk) 20:52, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

  Fair enough, makes sense. Sounds like you got it covered. CNC (talk) 19:43, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

  Yeah, just RS assessments - in converting and sourcing the full list, I've gotten used to quite a few different sources/writers, although it is probably a failing that some of the entries are reliant on the women's version of Transfermarkt still. If you want to help with the sourcing for those, that would be great! Kingsif (talk) 20:56, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

Kika Nazareth

Team Barça Pod has said that Nazareth's transfer fee was €370,000 – not a strong enough source to update it, but this would fit with sources saying Nazareth and Pajor's fees were about the same, and Pajor's was just less than €400,000. Kingsif (talk) 21:02, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

Discussion at Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard § Soccerdonna

 You are invited to join the discussion at Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard § Soccerdonna. Kingsif (talk) 21:20, 6 July 2024 (UTC)