Talk:List of metro systems/Archive 16

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Adding Annual Ridership to the Metro systems

Does anyone object to me adding the annual ridership stats to the metro systems? It is essential information when dealing with public transportation. Staglit (talk) 00:03, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

Considering that this goes hand-in-hand with the merge proposal involving the Metro systems by annual passenger rides article, this move should not be done lightly, or without discussion.

It also matters how it's done. You're putting the Ridership over as the righthand-most column. That is probably not the best way to do this - see, for example, List of North American rapid transit systems by ridership. If we do this, a much better table set-up would likely be the following for columns: Location, Country, Name, Year opened, Ridership, Stations, System length (I'd actually advocate flipping these two columns) & Year of last extension.

Also, there's the whole issue of, 1) how do you indicate what year the Ridership data is coming from? (e.g. see Metro systems by annual passenger rides table), and 2) referencing all of this "new data". And it still has to be done in such a way that the Merge proposal with Metro systems by annual passenger rides is kept in mind.

FTR, I actually think I oppose adding Ridership data to the main table on this page, as I don't think this table needs to get any "squishier" than it already is - my vision for merging this page and the Metro systems by annual passenger rides article is to append the latter as a second table further down this page...

It's possible that no other editors agree with me on that. Regardless, I'd like to see some response from other editors before we make this move... --IJBall (talk) 00:15, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

I actually think that Ridership by Year is more important than System length and year of last extension, but that is another discussion. Staglit (talk) 00:34, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

Ridership data without System length info is pretty meaningless, IMO - that's actually the current main problem with the Metro systems by annual passenger rides list: all of those Ridership figures are provided without the context of the size of the system listed. System size factors into Ridership levels as much as anything does... --IJBall (talk) 00:41, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

I support this merge, and if there is concern for table width I'd suggest merging the "Location" and "System" columns similar to how they are presented in Metro systems by annual passenger rides. I'd simply put the year and citation all in the same column, with the year in parenthesis ie: 123 million (2014). That would mean only one column was added, but two were merged, thus there should be no real expansion of the table's width. Liamdavies (talk) 08:16, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

I think this is the best way to do this. Almost every system has it's locations name in it anyway. Staglit (talk) 22:07, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

A suggestion: It might be worthwhile to work up a "mock-up" of this in someone's Sandbox so we can see what it looks like (and make suggestions) before we try to implement any changes over here. --22:00, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

NOTE: See also parallel discussion at: Metro systems by annual passenger rides Talk page.

• I have made a mock up of what the new chart might look like. Please comment, or edit it yourself!
• https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Staglit/sandbox Staglit (talk) 20:13, 1 May 2014 (UTC)

Yes, I think this is starting to work... I'd urge everyone who's interested to take a look at what is being proposed over at Staglit's sandbox page - if you have suggestions or comments (or complaints), post them here! But, as now proposed, this will be a relatively simple "2-column switch move", so the "revised table (with Ridership figures) will look very similar to the current one - only the "City" column is really being replaced... --IJBall (talk) 22:19, 1 May 2014 (UTC)

I'd leave both on, and in fact would say its a requirement to have both. Not every city is obvious from the system name. MBTA and SEPTA come to mind. I really thing its a terrible idea to remove the city name. oknazevad (talk) 22:42, 1 May 2014 (UTC)

oknazevad: I guess this is a problem, but I suppose that we could always put the city in brackets. Staglit (talk) 22:45, 1 May 2014 (UTC)

Or just leave a separate city column (for sortability) but shrink the width of all columns. As it stands there is a LOT of empty space in some of the columns. We could easily narrow those columns to preserve the separate city column. oknazevad (talk) 23:33, 1 May 2014 (UTC)

The current table columns that look to be the best candidates for (width-)shrinkage would seem to be the City column and the Country column. I wouldn't advise shrinking the System name column much more, and the other columns likely can't be shrunk any more due to References & Notes forcing them to keep a certain width... --IJBall (talk) 01:56, 2 May 2014 (UTC)

In light of oknazevad's concerns, a small 'mockup' of the latest proposal for a table that merges the Ridership figures in with the existing List of metro systems can be found at my Sandbox page. If anyone has questions, comments, concerns, or ideas, about this, please post them here. (On my end, I still don't like how the Ridership figures are presented there, so I'm still interested in other peoples' ideas on that...) --IJBall (talk) 23:56, 7 May 2014 (UTC)

I like it, for the most part. I like the way the columns are all about the same width. The only thing I'd do differently is to move the ridership column to the right end. Maybe go the order: city-country-name-opened-length-stations-ridership-last extension. oknazevad (talk) 03:08, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

For people who want to do a quick 'Ridership per km(/mi)" calc. (e.g. see: List of United States rapid transit systems by ridership) it'd be best if the Ridership & System length columns were right next to each other. The current table already does Stations, then System length - maybe the best order would be City-Country-Name-Opened-Stations-System length-Ridership-Last extension? --IJBall (talk) 03:24, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

That's fine too. Honestly, I'm not so concerned about the column order, other than thinking that city-country-name should be the first three, in that order, then probably "opened" after that. I'm wondering if it makes sense to have they last extension column next to the opened one, to group the similar data points together there. The stations-length-ridership combo makes sense as well. Actually, thinking on that, that's what I like the best: city-country-name-opened-last extension-stations-length-ridership. That way the first three together locate it, the next to give a brief glance of history, and the last three give an overview of size through statistics. That makes the most sense to me. oknazevad (talk) 04:10, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

OK, yeah, that looks good. We'll go from there. --IJBall (talk) 19:19, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

IJBall and oknazevad: Is the chart on Ij Balls sandbox? If so, I could start editing it right now. CTAГЛИT (talk) 21:32, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

CTAГЛИT - yes, an agreed-upon 'test' version of the "merged list" is up at my Sandbox page, and is there any chance you can hold off on any changes to the "merged list" for now?... I am getting really close to finishing up referencing the List of metro systems, and in "fixing" most of the references at the Metro systems by annual passenger rides article. I think it'll only take me another week or two to finish all that up. Once the List of metro systems is all referenced (and maybe a couple more "light metro" systems get deleted from the list...), then I think we can go ahead and "merge" the content. That's next on my 'To Do' List, after getting the referencing done... --IJBall (talk) 22:44, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

I Oppose this motion. Not on principal, it sounds like a great addition. But on practicality. I cannot see how you will be able to collect data from the same year for *every* metro system, some of which are only vague estimates. If you collect data from different years, then the list is meaningless and confusing, since it is meant to be for comparison. Unless some international agency publishes this data in it's entirety and updates it regularly, then I simply cannot see how this is feasible. Mattximus (talk) 20:52, 20 May 2014 (UTC)

I think it will be acceptable to put the year the statistics were from in brackets. And anyway, I'm sure there are other inconsistencies within the table, such as what System Length and year of last extension constitutes as, and what a single station is. CTAГЛИT (talk) 21:34, 20 May 2014 (UTC)

FTR, that was always my objection to the original Metro systems by annual passenger rides list as well. I think when I got there, data for some of the systems went as far back as 2008(!!), and that is still the case for some of the Japanese systems. And, from a practical standpoint, I don't really care for how appending the "year" on to the Ridership data looks (e.g. see: here), though it'll clearly "fit" in the table (which was my original concern...). In any case, I definitely think we should take a look at the full "mock up" before agreeing to merge the lists. But, as I said above, that is now a secondary priority for me - mostly finishing up the referencing on this page goes first. And the latter is going to have to wait until I finish up my 'real world' job obligations this week... --IJBall (talk) 00:12, 21 May 2014 (UTC)

Greatly support it. Your template is excellent, Staglit. I would probably organize the information in the order: name-country-opening year-ridership-stations-system length-last extension. However, this is going to be discussed! :) --Pavlovič (talk) 20:55, 29 May 2014 (UTC)

As anticipated by Staglit, the ridership data article should be merged with this one. His template is neat and clean, and I ask you to officially state your support for this initiative. Mine is a +1, of course. --Pavlovič (talk) 11:39, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

Two things: First, there was no need to start a new section, as the prior discussion is not old, and as IJBall noted, the current work is on improving references. Patience is needed here. This is also not a proper RFC. As such I've moved your comment up to the existing discussion.

Secondly, the column order at IJBall's sandbox is better, for the reasons I stated above; it's a more logical grouping of similar data points. The latest extension date should be next to the opening date, and the other statistics together. So in principle, I agree, but I don't see the rush and think we should make sure it's done right. oknazevad (talk) 15:13, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

I think my template is better, but IJBalls is still very good and will definitely work well, and if it is decided that my chart is inferior, then I will be okay with it. However, I am not as happy about being left out of this project, as I am the one that revived the idea... But oh well. Staglit (talk) 15:35, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

The referencing project is almost done - I anticipate I will finish that by Monday: I just need to take a look at the Venezuela systems, and then go back and look at some of the Asian systems I skipped at the time (namely, Tokyo, Manila, Bangkok, and Singapore, primarily; and also to finally finish off the Seoul 'note').

In the meantime, I don't think there is anything preventing someone from expanding what's at my Sandbox page, or taking what at what's my Sandbox and moving to their own Sandbox page and expanding it there - they certainly have my permission to do so now (at least to start on revising the first third, or so, of this table to include the Ridership stats). On the "column order" thing, I definitely admit that I prefer what Oknazevad and I came up with, because I feel strongly that the 'Ridership' stats should be right next to the 'System length' stats as those two stats correlate most closely... In any case, I think if Staglit wants to start working on adding the Ridership stats to the table, it's OK to start doing that this weekend.

One last thing - while I generally agree with Mattximus' objection above, I don't think it's a strong enough objection to scuttle this project. So let's start putting the new merged table together, and see if there are any suggestions for "improving its look". --IJBall (talk) 16:04, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

I will start working on IJBALLS chart IN MY SANDBOX. I would encourage EVERYONE to help out because it will be a big job.Staglit (talk) 18:56, 7 June 2014 (UTC)

I'll try to help out, when I can, but I've got some other priority Wiki projects that I've been putting off that I'd like to get to in the very near future... --IJBall (talk) 19:31, 7 June 2014 (UTC)

Update

OK, it is now time for all interested editors to take a look at Staglit's sandbox page.

This is a pretty close to a final version of what the merged List of metro systems/Metro systems by annual passenger rides page will look like.

There are a couple of issues to consider:

1. Should the 'system' references and the 'ridership' references be all bundled together (as they are now at Staglit's sandbox page), or should they be split up in to separate sections? (FTR, I think I will advocate for splitting them...)
2. Should the 'system' 'notes' and the 'ridership' 'Notes' be kept separate (as they are now at Staglit's sandbox page), or should the 'notes' be all bundled together? (And I'll advocate keeping them "split" as a they are now...)

One other thing - this version of the table is still "too squished", so I think we should widen the columns (e.g. for proper display in "widerscreen" monitors), and those of us like myself with smaller laptop screens will just have to suck it up. For an example of this, see: List of nearest stars and brown dwarfs – there, the table is, by necessity, quite wide (i.e. wider than a laptop screen). I think we need to do something similar with the 'merged' table for this page.

Please post any thoughts back here! --IJBall (talk) 15:53, 18 June 2014 (UTC)

I think that we must either merge all of the notes into one category and the citations into another, becuase it doesn't make much sense having one section just dedicated to Ridership. If so, we should divide all the notes and citations into their own individual sections. Staglit (talk) 21:29, 18 June 2014 (UTC)

Why doesn't it make sense to have a separate section for Ridership refs & notes? Having just one massive 'Notes' section, and then one massive 'References' section, makes it much harder for people to pick out the references (or 'notes') dedicated to 'systems stats' vs. references dedicated to 'ridership'. Not only will this be a huge wall of text (look at the current 'References' section at your sandbox page!) that will be intimidating to readers, I also think it'll end up being a discouragement to editors who want to update system stats and (esp.) ridership figs (by looking through the references). AFAIK, there's nothing in Wikipedia's WP:MOS that "prevents" or "disallows" the use of multiple references sections. In this case, I think 4 sections - Notes on systems & statistics, Notes on ridership figures, References on systems & statistics, and References on ridership figures, would be strongly advisable... P.S. If other editors agree with this, I'll do the "heavy lifting" to implement (coding) the 4 sections at your Sandbox page. --IJBall (talk) 21:39, 18 June 2014 (UTC)

Very well, but I still think that subividing the sections more would be even better. (Perhaps Ridership, Length, Stations and Other, but that really depends on how many there are of each, I'm very busy and haven't got much time.)Staglit (talk) 22:00, 18 June 2014 (UTC)

First off, thanks for sharing your thoughts!... As to your suggestion, in general (i.e. in most cases), it's the same reference for both Length and Stations, so subdividing those in to separate 'Reference' sections likely wouldn't work well. Opening dates and Last extension dates are often separate references from the Length/Stations refs, but in a number of cases a single reference will actually yield up all of Opening dates, Last extension dates, Length and Stations for a particular system. This is why further subdividing a References on systems & statistics into Length, Stations and Dates reference sections will be difficult, and perhaps not as useful... Ridership stats, OTOH, I think are from separate references from the 'System' references in nearly all cases, so a division between these is much more useful. But, on my end, I'm not sure I am going to do anything substantive on this, at least for a few days, as I want to see if we draw any more comments here before proceeding. --IJBall (talk) 22:26, 18 June 2014 (UTC)

Great design overall! I guess, though, that the images on the right should have a meaning. Having Beijing, NYC and London makes no sense as they are not the three most heavily used, or most extensive networks in that order. I think we should decide which systems to feature, as many have a lot of rights to appear on the page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.55.89.120 (talk) 19:05, 26 June 2014 (UTC)

Explanation for images: Shanghai = longest metro system; New York = most stations; London = oldest metro system. After the ridership data is merged in, we can discuss which three system's images would be the best to display, though I am of the opinion that one of those images should always be the London Underground as the oldest metro system... --IJBall (talk) 19:57, 26 June 2014 (UTC)

Fine, but I think this choice should be explained in the respective image captions. I would also add Beijng, as the most heavily used. --82.55.89.120 (talk) 00:04, 27 June 2014 (UTC)

Is it about time that we finally merge the articles using the sandbox material? :D — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.55.89.120 (talk) 13:08, 1 July 2014 (UTC)

Project is still "in progress". It's almost done - there are just a few more things that I'd like to do first, and then we'll replace the current table with Staglit's version. I'm hoping to get all that done in the next couple of weeks – this coming weekend will likely be the "big push" on my end to finish up what I think needs to be done... --IJBall (talk) 13:36, 1 July 2014 (UTC)

Update #2

Last chance(!) for all interested editors to take a look at the List of metro systems/Metro systems by annual passenger rides 'merge' project at Staglit's sandbox page – the project is extremely close to being done now, and I'd expect that we're within a week of the version at Staglit's Sandbox page replacing the bulk of the current List of metro systems article. This is pretty close the last chance for interested parties to offer comments and suggestions before the Ridership data gets merged into this page, and the Metro systems by annual passenger rides article is pared down to a REDIRECT page. So: last call! --IJBall (talk) 02:25, 5 July 2014 (UTC)