Talk:List of mammals of Syria

Tiger in Syria ?

Massetti (2009) wrote that in Syria : ".. tiger became extinct in historical times ... archaeological evidence for the occurrence of tigers in the Amuq valley ... within Turkish Hatay." He does not provide any details about this alleged archaeological find. There is NO substantiated evidence that the tiger was ever resident in Syria. In the IUCN Red List account for tiger, Syria is therefore NOT listed among the countries where it was extirpated. -- BhagyaMani (talk) 06:55, 10 October 2020 (UTC)

References

Asian elephant extirpated in Syria, Turkey, Iraq, Iran ?

The Asian elephant was added to the lists of extirpated species of these countries using an article by Çakırlar and Salima (2016) as source. These authors wrote : Asian elephants were not endemic to the region ... their arrival was anthropogenic … were imported into the Levant in the Middle Bronze Age … were a suitable animal for royal and elite hunts … and could serve as royal gifts in and of themselves ... died out in the 8th or 7th century BC. Do you think it is justified to list the Asian elephant as extirpated in these countries? @Nick Moyes, DeCausa, SchreiberBike, Elmidae, and Shyamal: please comment. – BhagyaMani (talk) 07:28, 6 March 2021 (UTC)

I am fairly certain that the term "extirpated" could only refer to the wild and not introduced species. Shyamal (talk) 08:31, 6 March 2021 (UTC)

I think it's ok to indicate that an introduced species was actively removed by human intervention (ie extirpated) just as many established invasive non-native species are when they are cleared fron any given area or region. What is not acceptable is for a handful of wikipedians to unilaterally decide that 'extirpated' is a better term to use than the more passive, neutral and widely-used and less loaded term: 'locally extinct'. Obviously, the status as a long-introduced (Established) species must also be clarified in any such article. Nick Moyes (talk) 09:22, 6 March 2021 (UTC)

I'd also say that if an introduced species has become established (reproducing population) and later disappears again, one might talk about local extinction/extirpation. Obviously something of a duration gradient - introducing rats on an island and removing them 15 years later: we wouldn't call that "local extinction". Losing all dingoes from Fraser Island after 5000 years: definitely local extinction. The elephant issue sounds like several hundred years of populations in the wild, which would qualify in my book. - No comment on the extinction/extipration distinction. --Elmidae (talk · contribs) 15:28, 6 March 2021 (UTC)

Whether introduced or not, this definitely counts as local extinction. Ddum5347 (talk) 18:17, 6 March 2021 (UTC)

Hippo, grey whale

Animalworlds314, you need to follow the sources. As noted, the range of the grey whale as given in the supplied reference does not include Syria. And the reference for the hippopotamus talks a lot about populations that may have been around in the Bronze Age, but also states multiple times that there is no evidence for later occurrence, e.g. "After the Iron Age no postcranial hippopotamus finds are reported from Israel, probably because the species became extinct in the region" and various other passages. The cut-off for including taxa in these articles is generally 1500 AD (otherwise we'd have a hundred Permian fish fossils in there). So please, read sources first, THEN revert. --Elmidae (talk · contribs) 13:22, 2 June 2021 (UTC)

Thanks, Elmidae! As you pointed out, this same source Horwitz et al. (1990) also refers to hippopotamus not being reported from Israel and Jordan after the Iron Age. Neither countries are listed as former range countries of the grey whale in the iucn Red List. But Animalworlds314 nevertheless reverted my removal of both hippo and grey whale in List_of_mammals_of_Israel#Extinct and hippo in List_of_mammals_of_Jordan#Extinct. Please consider to revert. -- BhagyaMani (talk) 14:34, 2 June 2021 (UTC)

No, no, no, no @BhagyaMani:, you can't do it, why would you say that, i would not like that if you just consider him to revert, and @Elmidae: i promise to follow sources as much as i can. I'm sorry all of this but i will cooperate. -- Animalworlds314 -- (talk) 19:48, 2 June 2021 (UTC)

Removed the hippos from both of those lists. The above specific and detailed negative evidence indicates that local extinction happened way back in this regions. Elmidae (talk · contribs) 16:23, 2 June 2021 (UTC)

Oh, and from THIS list again, as well. The same applies - if one source says "previously present but extinct" and another clarifies that extinction happened something like 3000 years ago, then a) these sources do not contradict but complement each other, and b) what they say is that extinction happened too early for consideration here. --Elmidae (talk · contribs) 16:27, 2 June 2021 (UTC)

Thanks again, Elmidae! The grey whale made it into umpteen Lists of mammals of countries bordering the Baltikum and Mediterranean Seas, in most withOUT a ref. I'm in the process of removing these entries. -- BhagyaMani (talk) 16:31, 2 June 2021 (UTC)

Fine, you two Elmidae and BhagyaMani won and i have lost, i hope you're happy that one of you took out the hippo out of every single list that i included. I may say thank you, not in an appreciation manner or way. It may have been a good thing to you two, though not to me. -- Animalworlds314 (talk) 19:48, 2 June 2021 (UTC)

We are not playing games of win and lose here. — BhagyaMani (talk) 20:04, 2 June 2021 (UTC)

Well okay, but you get the fact that i said that you BhagyaMani and Elmidae have erased the hippo on each article that i have included in the past, which in fact makes me look at it as an extremely unholy thing you two have done. I hate to say this and you may not like it, but one: you'll regret for what you two have done, which was taking out the hippo, two: you and Elmidae will be very hyper duper sorry for this one, and three: this has forced me to hate you BhagyaMani and Elmidae and not ever communicate with any of you unless its an important thing. -- Animalworlds314 (talk) 20:24, 2 June 2021 (UTC)

I don't care about your emotions, but about your erroneous additions to pages on my watchlist. -- BhagyaMani (talk) 20:33, 2 June 2021 (UTC)

Look, one of you may have removed the hippo from the list of mammals of wherever countries i included in, like for Israel, Palestine, and Jordan. You can say that this not a reliable source all you like or want but the ref shown below as an demonstration only definitely says it became in these regions (Israel, Jordan and Palestine) during the Iron Age, which is respectively 1,200–586 BCE most likely in written history (I might be wrong, but that is what i assume). You guys might start thinking "Why is Animalworld314 trying to bring back the hippo on one of the lists that we took out it when it should it not be there, that's it, we are going to have to do an intervention", well i can simply state that the hippo still simply became extinct in Israel, Palestine, and Jordan, whether one of you likes it or not, i strongly by all means that the hippo should be brought back without a doubt. By the way, by "intervention" i mean by either kicking me out of the project or blocking me indefinitely, to which i don't want to see that happen to me. If i ever bring back the hippo to the list of mammals of Israel, Jordan, and Palestine (in to which i will), then please i strongly recommend that you do not take out the hippo on each list on your leisure and you will have to learn to live with it or another words have acceptance over that, and that is final and all i have to say. Thank you. --Animalworlds314 (talk) 00:45, 4 June 2021 (UTC)

References