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May 2011 note

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The list is fairly complete. However, I have not yet found the Anderson River basin size, or any discharge stats for the Horton and English rivers. Twelve rivers still need images. I haven't found a source for the split of the Kootenay length or the Saint John length between Canada and the United States. There may be other problems that I'm not seeing. Any help with any of this would be appreciated. Finetooth (talk) 17:38, 30 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I might add that this list closely resembles List of longest rivers of the United States (by main stem), a featured list. Finetooth (talk) 20:06, 30 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Errors in The Atlas of Canada

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Shannon. You are right about the Atlas mixing the columns for the Saskatchewan and South Saskatchewan. It just looks like a typo to me. Also, the length in the Atlas for the Red River to the head of the Sheyenne River does not look correct to me. I went with the main stem length cited by another source; it's a bit longer than the number cited in the Atlas. Another apparent inconsistency in The Atlas involves counting the long upstream tribs for some rivers but not others. I hope that the Ruth Patrick quote in the lead is enough to cover these "close but no cigar" situations. Finetooth (talk) 21:12, 30 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, I had one question regarding the Slave River. Does it belong on the list? Considering that the Mackenzie is measured from the mouth to furthest source, and so is the Peace, shouldn't the Slave? (I'm considering making a map for this article, in the style of list of longest streams of Oregon except with numbered labels.) Shannontalk contribs 23:19, 30 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Ah, yes. Good catch. Looks like it should be 2,338 km (Slave main stem of 415 km plus Peace to the head of the Finlay, another 1923 km). I'll add it later today. The map sounds like a great idea if you have time to do it. Finetooth (talk) 23:50, 30 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, I mistyped - considering making a map - actually I've been working on it before that. ;) I could have it done by later today. I might also make one for the U.S. list, if I have time. Shannontalk contribs 00:16, 31 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Slave data added; list renumbered; lead updated. I look forward to the map. Finetooth (talk) 03:02, 31 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Got it uploaded jus'now – it's at Image:Longest_Rivers_of_Canada.jpg. I'd say putting it as a large centered image at the bottom, but it's up to you. I might start one for the U.S. article later today. Shannontalk contribs 22:12, 31 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Large centered at the bottom sounds good since that worked for List of longest streams of Oregon. The red link above needs fixed somehow. I looked for the image on your talk page but didn't find it. Wow! You have done a lot of maps of rivers all over the place. I just finished reading a book about kayaking on the Yarlung Zangbo River, which I see you've done an excellent map of. I've been wondering if I can find basin, length, discharge, and coordinate data for rivers in countries other than Canada and the U.S. and, if so, wondering which would be a good candidate for another list like this one. Any ideas? Finetooth (talk) 00:57, 1 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Countries outside the US... I don't think any other country has decently complete data regarding this kind of stats. Of course, there's an old Soviet stream-discharge database that appears pretty complete, but I'll have to fish out the link for that. Mexico seems like a closer candidate; of course there are all those IBWC gauges, and then there might be some on River Discharge Database for the rest of the country... Shannontalk contribs 22:27, 1 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
On a further note I believe that the Pend Oreille (measuring about 900 km if including the Clark Fork and Flathead) should be included, though only about 2 miles of the river are in the country (and a good portion of the North Fork Flathead is in Canada as well).
The map looks good, but I wonder if it would be possible to use names instead of numbers. The numbers are apt to change. Also, readers may find it inconvenient to scroll to see which number goes with which river. I think you are probably right about the Pend Oreille. Another good catch. I'm traveling, as you suspected, and I've been without an Internet connection since early Wednesday. I have one now, but things won't be entirely back to normal until tomorrow (Sunday); then I'll look up stuff about the Pend Oreille. I found what I think is a pretty good Mexico list here on pp. 36 and 37. I don't know what IBWC stands for; can you enlighten me? Looks like Mexico will be next, though the Soviet list might come in handy later if you've got it. Benke and Cushing have some data on Mexico, so between one thing and another I think that's what I'll try to do next. Finetooth (talk) 22:55, 4 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I hasten to add a thank you for the map and your other help. Finetooth (talk) 23:19, 4 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
IBWC stands for International Boundary & Water Commission, they have pretty good data for the southern Rio Grande/Colorado basins and such. I found the Russian list here. Will add the Pend Oreille onto the map soon as possible, I hope. Shannontalk contribs 01:24, 6 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

<outdent>Added Pend d'Oreille at position 38. Numbers from there to the bottom are changed. Finetooth (talk) 20:38, 6 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

It's possible that the Pend d'Oreille is longer if measured to the headwaters of the Flathead. Not sure. It's not easy to find reliable sources for all the sections. The same problem occurs with the Red River, which may be longer if measured to the headwaters of the Sheyenne. Finetooth (talk) 20:45, 6 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The revised map looks great. The placement is just right. Thank you so much. Finetooth (talk) 18:55, 8 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The accompanying map is missing a label for the Saint John River in New Brunwick & Maine. Reade (talk) 20:57, 14 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Good catch. Shannon, if you're watching this page, do you want to add a label? If not, I probably can. Finetooth (talk) 00:36, 15 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Reade: Shannon has now added the label. Finetooth (talk) 18:40, 16 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The lengths shown often include up stream rivers. For example, the length for the MacKenzie includes the Slave and Peace Rivers. Seems a little deceptive as the river is NOT named the MacKenzie until after Great Slave Lake. 2001:56A:F414:D300:BCF4:91C6:A957:6D7F (talk) 04:03, 28 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

St. Lawrence

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I don't know any source (other than this one) that says the St. Lawrence River begins at the St. Louis River and contains the entire course of the Great Lakes. No doubt, the basin it drains begins back there, but the St. Lawrence River is virtually always said to have as its source Lake Ontario. MrArticleOne (talk) 01:55, 28 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

E.g., nobody says that the Mississippi River's headwaters are in Montana, even though the Missouri River begins there and empties into the Mississippi. They form one drainage basin but they are almost universally considered, by convention if nothing else, separate rivers. MrArticleOne (talk) 02:02, 28 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]
What to count and how to count it are somewhat arbitrary decisions. J.C. Kammerer of the United States Geological Survey says, "River lengths or river-length data are affected...by the precision of various techniques of measurement, by the scale of available maps or aerial photographs, and by somewhat arbitrary decisions. For example, the length may be considered to be the distance from the mouth to the most distant headwater source (irrespective of stream name) or from the mouth to the headwaters of the stream commonly identified as the source stream." His basic count for the Mississippi goes north into Minnesota rather than up the Missouri into Montana, but his count for the St. Lawrence goes across the Great Lakes into Minnesota. You can see the whole of Kammerer's document here. Since the article is about rivers in Canada, I used the Atlas of Canada as the main supporting source for the data given. Finetooth (talk) 16:31, 28 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I think that this sort of thing has to take into account conventional expectations/understandings, and there is no conventional expectation or understanding that the St. Lawrence begins in Minnesota, regardless of what the Atlas of Canada says. MrArticleOne (talk) 20:57, 28 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The language used for other components of the system also resists characterizing the whole thing as the St. Lawrence. First, there are the Great Lakes, which (in my experience) are not considered parts of some larger river; they're lakes (the law even treats them as inland seas, rather than lakes). Next, there are various other components of the watercourse that are themselves called separately named rivers. Thus, Lakes Superior and Huron are connected by the St. Marys River, Lakes Huron and St. Clair are connected by the St. Clair River, Lakes St. Clair and Erie are connected by the Detroit River, and Lakes Erie and Ontario are connected by the Niagara River. Is it really all the St. Lawrence River? I think not. MrArticleOne (talk) 21:19, 28 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Yep. Counting from the mouth to the ultimate headwaters struck me as odd at first, specifically in the case of the St. Lawrence. However, common sense and personal experience aren't reliable sources, and I came around to seeing that river lengths are measured by the experts in more than one way. The problem that I see in the Atlas of Canada is that it is not entirely consistent internally, but I have not found anything better. Other sources give lengths for particular rivers, and I'm sure you can find multiple reliable sources with differing measurements for the St. Lawrence. As far as I can tell, no Canadian rivers set is more complete than the set in the Atlas of Canada. If you can find a better one or a better organizing principle for this Wikipedia list, please go for it. Finetooth (talk) 16:04, 29 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I have no problem with the organizing principle being the editorial judgment of the collective Wikipedia editors. If a couple of smart people with a refined sense of these things such as ourselves both agree that this is kind of a wacky, counterintuitive way of doing this, then absent some clear and definitive definition to the contrary (such as from the International Hydrographic Organization) I don't see any reason why we cannot inject some discretion into the editing and make it reflect conventional understandings. MrArticleOne (talk) 20:10, 29 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Conventional understandings are not the same as reliable sources. One way to handle the differences among reliable sources for each river would be to use notes to explain the differences. I have no interest in doing that, but I don't mind if you want to give it a shot. Finetooth (talk) 20:41, 29 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]
It isn't something I care enough about to take that initiative. I commented here in the hopes that editors more invested in this article than me might be inspired to make a change. MrArticleOne (talk) 22:07, 29 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

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