Talk:List of largest church buildings

Old

This lists are biased. Just take a look at the Metropolitan Cathedral in Mexico City and you'll see what is big.

Churches and Cathedrals

I want to merge the two tables churces and cathedrals. It's not really neceassary to distinguish in my opinion and many of the "churches" are also cathedrals for example as it is now. —Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:|User:]] ([[User talk:|talk]] • contribs)

I guess that makes sense. Perhaps in the "notes" we could preserve the distinction. Sylvain1972 14:55, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

I fixed it now, looks good. I'm not sure how to preserve the disitinction in "notes" that was suggested above so I leave that to other contributors. —Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:|User:]] ([[User talk:|talk]] • contribs)

I am not sure merging the two is really such a good idea, because I think a lot of so-called "megachurches" have been left off the list but if we put them in the list it would make the list a lot longer. Or maybe we should have a combined church and cathedrals list and also separate lists of just churches and just cathedrals. For instance, according to wikipedia itself, Overlake Christian Church in Redmond, Washington is 250,000 square feet! But having attended that church for a period of time some years ago, I recall that the church was at least a two-story building and the square footage probably includes the large conference rooms on the second floor, whereas many cathedrals are primarily single story so they would seem to suffer in a square footage comparison with a multi-story building. As an aside note, OCC was a truly huge church...the sanctuary was the size of a large concert hall and had an extensive balcony level. The stage had an orchestra pit. I have also seen other churches such as Dr. Charles Stanley's church in Atlanta (forgot the name of the church, it's Baptist), Saddleback Church, Dr. David Jeremiah's church...that are huge. Wherever Joel Osteen televises from must be huge as well, though I haven't been there. the_paccagnellan (talk) 17:18, 30 March 2009 (UTC) This article seems to have become a place to list large Cathedrals and thats it. The reality is that there needs to be a distinction between the older styled Cathedral church's and the modern Mega Church because this particular article has become more of a place for people to see a list of the largest Catholic and/or other traditional orthodox or ancient church Cathedrals and not so much an interest in the actual largest houses of worship in general.--Pantherjad (talk) 05:40, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

St Peter?

Why is St Peter's on this list? Surely it is not a cathedral as the cathedral of the Bishop of Rome is St John Lateran. --Captdoc 21:25, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

What about San Paolo fuori le mura outside of Rome? By Wikipedia's own provided dimensions, the nave alone is 8400 square meters...213.203.132.218 (talk) 23:02, 19 June 2010 (UTC)Wilton

National Shrine of the Immaculate Conception, Washington DC

Though not a cathedral, the Basilica of the National Shrine of the Immaculate Conception in Washington, D.C., is the largest Catholic church in the western hemisphere. It's probably the largest church in the western hemisphere. Rlm0710 17:46, 28 September 2007 (UTC) For the precision St.Paul outside the walls (San Paolo fuori le mura) is (interior dimensions) 131,66 meters long, 65 wide and 29,70 meters high. That is, 8557,9 square meters area and 254169 cubic meters volume. You haven't seen the Metropolitan Cathedral in Mexico City. It engorges this chuch by far. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.25.126.138 (talk) 16:48, 6 November 2011 (UTC)

Regarding the notes on the gross floor area of the lower floor (which in this case coincides with the "footprint surface area"), I think we should refer to the official document: https://www.nationalshrine.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/BNSIC-Architectural-Details-of-the-Basilica.pdf . The area is 129.912 sq. ft.. The Upper Church area is not part of it, because it refers to another level. For example, if the total gross floor area were to be calculated, the areas would have to be added together: 129.912 sq. ft. + 76.396 sq. ft. --Podz00 (talk) 03:44, 24 February 2020 (UTC)

Actually it would be 53,518.16 sq. feet (lower floor) + 76,391.47 sq. feet (Great Upper Church) = 129,909.63 sq. feet total area 2605:A000:121E:C85A:C92B:1C4F:832B:E146 (talk) 18:36, 24 February 2020 (UTC)

The official document I linked says that the gross floor area of the lower level is 129,912 sq. ft., not 53,518.16 sq. ft.--Podz00 (talk) 19:35, 24 February 2020 (UTC)

I have deleted the information on the area of the exterior since for this church there are no covered spaces (i.e. colonnades) outside the closed internal area of the building. In this case: gross floor area of the lower level = building footprint = area of the exterior = 12,069 m² --Podz00 (talk) 02:52, 28 February 2020 (UTC)

The so called "interior area" is calculated using the data from the same floor area or the floor where the altar is located and is possible to calculate the volume. Therefore the Immaculate has 76,396 sq ft (7,097 m²) of "interior area". 62.163.248.168 (talk) 15:09, 28 July 2020 (UTC)

Yes, displaying the surface of the Upper Church (7,097 m²) seems more appropriate to me too (the actual church rises from the upper floor), however the lower level is not entirely underground as if it were a crypt, in fact it is visible from the outside and contributes to some extent to the total volume. --Podz00 (talk) 15:42, 28 July 2020 (UTC)

Hagia Sophia?

Should the Hagia Sophia be on this list? It is persently not a Christian church, but a museum, and from 1453 to 1935 it was a Muslim mosque! I belive it should be out of the main list, even if it could be mentioned somewhere else in the article. 62.169.124.142 12:08, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

Church of the Holy Wisdom

Regardless of its later use, the buildings significance is not as a mosque, not as a museum, but as one of the greatest works of Christian architecture. I am in total disagreement to leaving it off the list.

Amandajm (talk) 06:48, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Igreja da Santíssima Trindade (Church of the Most Holy Trinity) in Fátima, Portugal

I read the new church in Fatima, Igreja da Santíssima Trindade, is now the fourth biggest in the world. Anyone has a good source for this? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.241.248.37 (talk) 12:11, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

Ok, I found info about the church: http://www.santuario-fatima.pt/portal/index.php?id=1303

Sugestion

I think this table should have the capacity (nr of persons) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.187.14.242 (talk) 18:48, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

agreed Lwnf360 (talk) 20:20, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Ţ==Yamoussoukro== I have been searching and I can't find any official reference as to the size of this structure. I do not think that it is the largest church in the world. I believe that the dome is one of the biggest, and that it is certainly one of the largest churches in the world, but from what I have seen and read, the footprint of the area (that is called the 'biggest church') includes several buildings that are not part of the cathedral. I am looking at satellite photos, trying to compare Yamoussoukro and St. Peters, but I cannot get a real idea of the comparative size.

I hope that someone can help establish the real dimensions of this building. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Robstepus (talk • contribs) 11:43, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Hi, I think you mean Basilica of Our Lady of Peace of Yamoussoukro. I had looked into this in the past. The "head of state" (let us say) who constructed it seems to have wanted it to be called the largest at his birthplace. He also got Pope John Paul II to go there with the promise that a large hospital would be built. None was. In fact there is just the stone that John Paul II left there for the hospital. Much of it is empty space and is just given a boundary for the sake of competition. Now that the previous head of state and John Paul II are both in the "other world" I wonder if they see eye to eye. And in a country that is not exactly rich, construction is not likely to be a priority. Anyway, it is not what it was advertised to be.... History2007 (talk) 16:13, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

OK, but why is it not in the list? Alex2006 (talk) 11:00, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

Hello oh, I think that the Cathedral of Saint Paul in St Paul Nashcountryboy (talk) 22:08, 16 April 2019 (UTC)

Irrelevance

I think that trying to make an ordered list is altogether too difficult. The claims made about Yamoussoukro appear to be patent nonsense, so to have it first on the list is inappropriate.

We have here other nonsense like "St John the Divine claims to be the biggest Gothic church in the world". Call it "Gothic Revival", "Neo-Gothic" or "Gothic-style" if you like, but No it is not the biggest genuinely Gothic church in the world.

Why is St. Paul's listed so far down the list, one wonders? Where has Florence Cathedral disappeared to? Why doesn't Winchester Cathedral which is the longest Medieval church in the world get a mention. Where is York Minster?

As for Seville, the latest claim is that its area is greater than that of St Peter's and St Paul's. My suspicion is that this includes numerous accretions, some of which it may be valid to include and others not. Measuring Spanish Cathedrals is very difficult as they are invariably closely surrounded by other buildings which may be accessed off the cathedral itself. The area it covers is huge but even so, I have doubts about the actual church interior being as large as St Peter's.

Amandajm (talk) 07:14, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

What does TK mean?

In the "Volume in m³" column, a number of cells contain just the letters "TK". What do they mean? I can't seem to think of an acronym that would make sense in this context. --92.104.254.8 (talk) 20:04, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

This still needs clarification. — Twas Now ( talk • contribs • e-mail ) 05:51, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

TK is journalismese for "to come"213.203.132.218 (talk) 22:57, 19 June 2010 (UTC)Wilton

GOOD JOB

There are still some problems, but this format makes things much easier to resolve.

Longest cathedral omitted?

There is a glaring ommission for the longest church/cathedral in the world. The St Pius X underground basilica in Lourdes, France has an enthusiastically purported length of exactly 200 metres, but is closer to 191 metres, which still makes it the longest single body of a religious building in the world, since the quoted length of St Peters in Rome includes the supplementary vestibule. Lourdes is therefore a few metres longer than St Peters in Rome. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.145.175.117 (talk) 10:16, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

Conference Center

Should the LDS Conference Center be included in this list? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conference_Center —Preceding unsigned comment added by Redshoes37 (talk • contribs) 15:47, 25 February 2009 (UTC) It is 130,000 m^2.

No. The authors and editors of this Wiki page are not concerned with actually listing church buildings as defined in the article, rather they only want to list "traditional" Church buildings which mostly means Catholic, Orthodox, or Anglican Cathedrals rather than the variety of VERY large protestant buildings, mega churches, or other large religious meeting assembly centers. The reality is that this article needs to become categorized to distinguish between such traditional type cathedrals and newer large religious meeting buildings. While it is worth noting that such an old and notable Cathedral as St. Peter's in the Vatican still remains among the largest, to define church buildings so broadly and then actually prevent qualifying buildings like the Conference Center from making the list via aggressive editing, is not the right way to go about this entry. There needs to be sub-categories among which you can find traditional Cathedrals and newer protestant mega-church religious assembly halls. "Any building which was built for the primary purpose of Christian worship, for any recognised denomination of Christianity" means that St. Peter's is not the largest on the list and that cannot be allowed by the editors!--Pantherjad (talk) 02:56, 23 October 2010 (UTC)

Thank you for your editorial. Built primarily for Christian worship is not that ambiguous. A conference centre might be for other religion-related activities, but is not primarily for worship itself. Oreo Priest ^talk 12:29, 24 October 2010 (UTC)

Unfortunately the term "worship" is as ambiguous as its definition, which does not reflect the intent of this page. As the LDS Conference Center was built primarily to distribute and observe Christian doctrine, thus acknowledging Jesus Christ in its function, the building quite clearly meets all the criteria defined by the page. The idea that the building was built for purposes similar to Christian worship but distinguishable from such arise from a misunderstanding of the building's function and original and contemporary purpose, which is in fact worship. This has been verified in sources and more can be added. John k martin (talk) 07:23, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

https://www.lds.org/ensign/2005/06/news-of-the-church/mormon-tabernacle-choir-getting-acquainted-with-conference-center?lang=eng lists the LDS Conference Center as 21,333 seats, 8.5 million cubic feet which equals about 240,000 M^3 TimRiker (talk) 20:46, 17 February 2015 (UTC)

Okay, on the face of it, it is preposterous to see the LDS conference center listed as the largest church building in the world. No one, except Mormons trying to best Roman Catholics, would make the argument. InFairness (talk) 22:27, 3 May 2016 (UTC)

Our Lady of Guadalupe

This church needs to be on the list. It is huge. History2007 (talk) 16:15, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

Sanctuary of Our Lady of Licheń - width

The official website lists the area as 23,000 m², but gives the dimensions of church as 120m x 77m; this yields a maximum area for the church of 9240 m². Actually, the site says that the main nave with side chapels is 77m wide, but it doesn't say anything about the width of the whole building. Lampak (talk) 10:10, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

A reference for the disputed size: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/galleries/largest-churches-in-the-world/church12/ AJRG (talk) 13:30, 13 February 2022 (UTC)

Cologne Cathedral interior volume of 407,000 m³ is impossible

It is impossible that the Cologne Cathedral has an interior volume of 407,000 m³. A building area of 7,914 m² would require an average interior height of 51.4 m, while the main nave has a max. inner height of only 43.35 m, and a max. inner height of the other naves is just 19.75 (calculated based on photogrammetric measurments taken from a nave looking east picture) at an area of 150 % of the main nave (calculated based on a ground plan measurements). Hence, the inner volume excluding the two towers above 20 m is less than 3,165.6 m² x 43.35 m + 4,748.4 m² x 19.75 m = 137,229 m³ + 93,781 m³ = 231,010 m³. Hence, the two towers at roughly 17 m by 17 m (measured on said plan printed on a 1:500 scale) and a combined area of 588 m² would need to be more than [(407,000 m³ - 231,010 m³) : 588 m²] + 20 m = 299 m + 20 m = 319 m tall inside (excluding the spires with relatively small volume), which they are not at 157 m including spires. A volume of 407,000 m³ may refer to the exterior including crypts at best. At a towers' 120 m inner height (based on photogrammetric measurement taken from a cathedral's picture), a cathedral's volume of the interior above ground including the towers would be less than 100 m x 588 m² + 231,010 m³ = 289,810 m³, which is consistent with volumes of similarly structured Gothic cathedrals.--70.107.183.219 (talk) 01:33, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

I agree with your logic, but this is original research, and cannot be really be used on wikipedia. Several sources give the figure of 407,000m3, including the cathedral's own website [1]. This conflict between published sources and logic is unfortunate.

In the past I put in a lot of effort into this article, but I now despair of it. Based on the paucity of sources, and the seemingly random numbers put about in the press, it is not currently possible to get the article up to a good standard. If we use the official figures we get a list that is obviously, logically wrong (based on calculations like the above); if we calculate our own, it is WP:OR. Not a good situation...

MinisterForBadTimes (talk) 07:46, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

There are two language versions of the cathedral's own Web site: in German [2] and in English [3]. The original description Umbauter Raum ohne Strebewerk 407.000 cbm is obviously correct, but its translation Interior area without buttresses 407.000 cbm is incorrect and illogical since it does not make sense to exclude buttresses from an interior for obviously buttresses are not in the interior. Raum refers to 3D and not 2D, hence - to space and volume rather than to area. Raum may refer to area only with the 3rd dimension, like area between buildings, or territory. Umbauter Raum means building volume [4] or cubature, cubage [5]. Exactly, it means built up (embraced) space, but not built over space, since um- means round, around [6]. Everywhere, cubature, cubage refers to space taken by a building meaning its exterior. Hence, adding without buttresses, which is exclusion of parts of an exterior, makes sense in reference to a volume of only the exterior, since they are not part of the interior. In other words, 407,000 m³ refers and has to refer to a cathedral's (exterior) gross volume, which is not surprising considering an implied honesty of the cathedral's management, though the English translation is somehow unfortunate. --71.247.231.74 (talk) 01:36, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

Biggest orthodox cathedral

I've already rased the question on the St. Sava article. The largest orthodox church (by any mean) is Cathedral of Christ the Saviour. Even in volume it is 524,000 cubic metres.--Laveol ^T 11:34, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

Numbers in the referenced site are highly exaggerated. You can see that by calculating volume with dimensions given there. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.198.221.190 (talk) 22:56, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

Sagrada Familia

I've done a rough calculation for the area and volume but adding it to the table seems beyond my capabilities. Area: 90m Long x 45m wide for the nave and apse + 90m long x 30m wide for the transept - 30x30 for the crossing = 5850m^2. Volume: Accounting for 30m vaults -> 90m long x 45m wide x 30m high (nave and apse) + 90m long x 30m wide x 30m high (transept) - 30x30x30 (crossing), accounting for 45m vaults -> 90m long x 15m wide x 15m high(above 30, the nave and apse) + 90m long x 15m wide x 15m high (transept) - 30x30x15 (crossing), accounting for 60 m vaults -> 15m wide x 30m long x 15m high (above the 45m vaults, crossing and apse), accounting for 70 m vault -> 15m wide x 15m long x 15m high (above 60m, apse), for a total of 212,625 m^3. 72.67.53.133 (talk) 06:47, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

Lakewood Church

Lakewood Church in Houston, Texas is by far the largest church that I know of. It puts St. Peter's Basilica to shame. It is in the old Compaq Center sports arena. It is approximately 400,000 square feet or 37,000 square meters. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.98.252.106 (talk) 08:02, 16 November 2011 (UTC)

The definition of church building is somewhat narrow and subject to technicalities: "built for the primary purpose of Christian worship." The Compaq Center was built for sports but later converted to a church. So it was NOT built for the primary purpose of Christian worship, unless you consider re-modeling as a form of building--which is debatable. The spirit of the idea of largest church building ought to be inclusive of any building that is USED for the primary purpose of Christian worship. I have long since proposed that this article be narrowed in its scope to allow for another article that would list protestant "mega-church" buildings.Pantherjad (talk) 05:00, 13 February 2014 (UTC)

There are almost no data about its real size, in their website says 600,000 sq ft (55,750 m²), on some other websites 400,000 sq ft, unless that new measurement is made, making difference between constructed area (which counts all the terrain) and interior area (where the seats are located), it can not be said as being the largest. It is odd that St. Peter Basilica with 15,160 m² of interior area, 21,095 m² with exterior area and capacity of 60,000 people seated, as well as Aparecida Basilica with 12,000 m² of interior area, 18,331 m² with exterior area and capacity of 45,000 people seated, are both smaller than Lakewood. 62.163.248.168 (talk) 15:22, 28 July 2020 (UTC)

The area measured with Google Earth is around 16-19,000 m². 55,750 m² could be the total floor area (all floors)...don't know. However, we should rather consider whether these stadium-like churches can be put on the list (it seems extremely odd to me). --Podz00 (talk) 16:10, 28 July 2020 (UTC)

Why does the article omit Protestant churches?

The article's title is "List of largest church buildings in the world". There are a lot of very large protestant churches worthy to be on the list. Why aren't these included in the list? The list seem to deal only with Catholic and Orthodox buildings. Surely you don't think Protestants are not Christians. Alternatively, I suggest a move to List of largest traditional church buildings in the world 122.107.130.111 (talk) 12:49, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

Presence of "CSI Medak" on the list?

Why does this one warrant a mention on this list. Maybe it is the largest church in India, but it is smaller than some parish churches in England! This article is an attempt to compile a global list, so I'm pretty sure thousands of church buildings rank above this one. Let's at least be reasonable about adhering to the criteria (if there even is one) when nominating particular structures to this list. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.61.128.149 (talk) 22:52, 1 December 2012 (UTC)

San Giovanni in Laterano

I roughly calculated the massive San Giovanni in Laterano to be 145 x 63 m or over 9000 m^2, so it definitely deserves a place on this list.

79.0.9.117 (talk) 10:09, 10 July 2013 (UTC) baden

Canada?

Why does Canada rate special mention? There is no reason to include the respective Canadian buildings as they are definitely not notable for their size.

79.0.9.117 (talk) 10:12, 10 July 2013 (UTC) baden

Church buildings: what qualifies?

So even though LDS Church temples are not churches, they are church buildings set aside for worship services by a Christian denomination: would they qualify for this list? The Salt Lake Temple is 23,506 m2 in floor area, the Los Angeles California Temple is 17,709 m2, and the Washington D.C. Temple is 15,000 m2. -- 208.81.184.4 (talk) 17:15, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

I say add them. I was considering adding the LDS Conference Center. I personally think it narrowly fits, but temples totally do. McKay (talk) 14:04, 18 July 2014 (UTC)

If you are going to include arenas, you should also list the Georgia Superdome  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 45.37.80.221 (talk) 00:08, 21 April 2016 (UTC) 

Florence Cathedral

It is missing. 8,300 square meters. Paolotacchi (talk) 14:05, 24 March 2015 (UTC)

Valle de Los Caidos

The Valle do Los Caidos (Valley of the Fallen) in Spain:

Admittedly Controversial, since it is also the Tomb of Francisco Franco, it is still one of the largest Cathedral in the world:

Franco had it built (probably with some slave labor) starting in 1940 to commemorate all who died in the Civil War (though there is a lot of skepticism as to whether it was built just for those of his followers (The Falange) who died.

From the Wikipedia article:

In 1960, Pope John XXIII declared the underground crypt a basilica. The dimensions of this underground basilica, as excavated, are larger than those of St. Peter's Basilica in Rome. To avoid competition with the apostle's grave church on the Vatican Hill, a partitioning wall was built near the inside of the entrance and a sizable entryway was left unconsecrated. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gay Backpacker (talk • contribs) 02:43, 24 September 2015 (UTC)

Cathedral of Saint Paul, Saint Paul Minnesota

Already listed in the list of tallest houses of worship, here is from its web site:

Here is the wikipedia entry for the Cathedral:

It is the third largest completed church in the United States, and the fourth tallest.

The dome of the cathedral is 76 feet (23 m) in diameter and 186 feet (57 m) high. Warm-colored paint and gold leaf were added during a major renovation of the dome in the 1950s

https://www.cathedralsaintpaul.org/architecture

Height: 306.5 ft. Length: 307 ft. Width: 216 ft.

Seating capacity: 3,000

Unfortunately, we don't know whether the width and length are interior or exterior. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gay Backpacker (talk • contribs) 02:50, 24 September 2015 (UTC)

On St Sava again

Ok, I've been trying to get an explanation about it for some time now. Seeing that it is now larger than every single Russian Orthodox church and even the Hagia Sophia, I have to question the numbers present in the table. There is no 8,162 sq m mentioned in the source. As far as area goes, the source mentions that the "floor area at the level of the nave is 3,650 square meters" and that is about it. It is also the realistic number. I will be adding it to the article and move the church to where it should be in the list. Any data on Russian churches would be of help as well. I am absolutely sure that the Alexander Nevsky cathedral in Sofia is not the second largest Orthodox church in the world. --Laveol ^T 14:13, 4 December 2015 (UTC)

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Cordoba Cathedral

How is this not on the list? You can't claim that it is a mosque. Not only has it been a church since 1236, but it was founded as a church long before the Moorish invasion of 711 AD -- 69.86.93.93 (talk) 17:34, 23 April 2016 (UTC)

Hagia Sophia

Why is it that under the "Scope" section, it says that the Hagia Sophia is not listed, yet it is still listed? Should the statement or the church be removed. I feel that because the Hagia Sophia is not a church, then it should absolutely not be listed. Robert1010102 (talk) 01:24, 24 May 2016 (UTC)

Remove #1 entry, Calvary Temple

Removing because 1) No third party sources, and 2) One may examine the satellite photo of the church [7] and measure distances to reveal that the claimed area is a great exaggeration. The main church building is at most 10000 square meters, and the entire campus is at most 50000 square meters in area, which makes the claimed area of 130,000 square meters grossly impossible. Unless some other source can verify this outlandish claim, we cannot have this building listed as #1. Richard Ye^talk 20:59, 11 July 2016 (UTC)

Milan Cathedral

I have strong doubts about the accuracy of the latest source, which claims an internal surface area of 11,700 square meters. Try to measure it yourself with Google Earth: the external surface area doesn't even reach 11.000 sq m. I think that the source which claims 10,186 sq m, that has been deleted, is more reliable. --Podz00 (talk) 00:08, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

Lincoln Cathedral

Why is Lincoln Cathedral not included - its floor plan is over 12000m2?

No more than 8000 m² (around 9500 including the cloisters and chapter house). However, I agree that it should be added. --Podz00 (talk) 23:40, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

I'm trying to find either 1) a reliable source of its size or 2) a reasonable way to estimate its size. Simple math shows it's got a footprint of about 5k square meters, but I don't have any way of measuring internal area. I'll put the rough number in, but please, anyone feel free to improve it with better numbers. McKay (talk) 17:31, 27 August 2018 (UTC)

Google Earth gives me around 6600 sq m of footprint (very rough estimate).--Podz00 (talk) 18:18, 27 August 2018 (UTC)

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Lower Limit

I'm proposing a 3,000 square meter lower limit on buildings. I've come across information that includes hundreds of buildings built on the same plan at about 25,000 sqft (2,300 square meters) (some buildings have a little extension or two and are a little larger. It seems silly to either add all of them, or add "Here's this common blueprint that represents hundreds of buildings." Similarly, if another stamped blueprint larger becomes available, a new cutoff should be made to exclude that. McKay (talk) 16:45, 29 August 2018 (UTC)

Tallest churches.

Tallest would be a good addition to this page. Is Salisbury still the tallest cathedral? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.56.38.96 (talk) 19:39, 17 September 2018 (UTC)

Winchester England

Wondering why Winchester does not appear on the list. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.56.38.96 (talk) 19:42, 17 September 2018 (UTC)

St. Patrick's Cathedral in New York

Wondering why St. Patrick's does not appear on the list. Its area, according to Wikipedia, is 2 acres (about 8000 square meters) although I imagine this is not the interior area. I could not find accurate figures for interior area and volume. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.132.173.66 (talk) 17:53, 5 October 2018 (UTC)

Revamp

I think this is a useful article, but it needs a massive revision. Here are some issues:

We need to decide what the list criteria are. Possible ideas include human capacity, area, and volume. I think area might be the easiest to verify, but it's also subject to debate as the footprint of a building can be significantly different from the actual usable area inside a building. Also, there are a few churches on the list which have overhang balconies on the interior and the like which makes the "area" a questionable measure. Cited capacity may be a better organizational point.

But I think more to the point is that it may make more sense to base this list on sources stating that the buildings are "largest". To that end, I'd like to see if we can get some secondary sources which can identify some of these buildings. I fear that many internet-based works are likely contaminated by Wikipedia's own presentation, so if you can find some that clearly do not have that issue, this would be good too.

jps (talk) 17:28, 5 November 2018 (UTC)

Support @ජපස: revamp - having separate columns for exterior and interior size would improve the article, as would a column for capacity.Jonpatterns (talk) 16:08, 4 February 2019 (UTC)

Support @ජපස: - There are quite a lot of unsubstantiated entries in this list that need a closer look referencing to strong reliable sources. My major concern is that some entries may be confounded by the different understandings of the vague term "area" - be it floor area, footprint area, or even a total lot area (including adjoining fields, gardens, plazas, etc.). I've done some clean-up and tagging recently but of late it has started to feel like nothing more than rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic. I daresay that we will end up major movements among the different entries as we progressively determine the properly-referenced numbers that may cause some upset amongst some of the more passionate editors who would resent any loss in standing of their favoured church, but it will be necessary in order to improve the sad state of the article. Epistulae ad Familiares (talk) 15:38, 25 March 2019 (UTC)

I don't know how good it is to leave two columns or add them, since many of these sources do not specify exactly what type of area they refer to. Usually the sources refer to the "area" as the "building footprint", which should be the parameter to establish the order of the list. If we consider the "floor area" or the "internal area" things would become more complicated, besides the fact that they are in my opinion more difficult to verify and have less sense to express the overall size of a church. The best thing would be to leave a single "area" column and report in the notes column the type of area or other areas if specified, otherwise leave it empty.--Podz00 (talk) 15:04, 2 May 2019 (UTC)

Hillsong Church

Where are the big churches like Hillsong Church and Lakewood Church which holds something like 40,000 people in their stadium... 132.234.228.57 (talk) 14:19, 5 May 2019 (UTC)

I don't think that megachurches properly fall into the category of traditional churches, moreover probably (I don't know exactly) they are not even consecrated.--Podz00 (talk) 04:21, 6 May 2019 (UTC)

I'd be happy to include them with a source about their size. I tried looking for Lakewood briefly. If you can come up with a good source, I'd love to see it. McKay (talk) 08:18, 12 December 2019 (UTC)

Merge?

Would it make sense to merge List of tallest church buildings here by means of simply introducing an new column for that variable for the many overlapping entries? Or possibly the other way around? PPEMES (talk) 12:23, 4 September 2019 (UTC)

No. A good number of the tallest examples have a small footprint. Mangoe (talk) 15:54, 5 December 2019 (UTC)

@PPEMES I think the two dimensions are unrelated, it would create more confusion. For the volume of a church and the footprint it makes a lot more sense (and the wiki page is already so) since the two are somehow dependent. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Podz00 (talk • contribs) 16:59, 5 December 2019 (UTC)

Cathedral of Saint Stephen of Metz ?

What about this cathedral ? 2500 square meter? nave : 15,60 meter.... French Wikipedia. Sorry for my englih language2A02:8428:487:FC01:79FF:6AF0:6435:9660 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 16:59, 21 October 2019 (UTC)

I think it's larger than that, about twice, but I don't know the exact size.--Podz00 (talk) 17:23, 21 October 2019 (UTC)

St Peter's Basilica volume

The volume for St Peter's Basilica is inconsistent with the floor area given. A floor area of 15,160 m^2 and a volume of 5 million m^3 would suggest an incorrect average height of 330 metres. 5 million cubic feet doesn't seem realistic either, giving 141,584 m^3 for an average height of 9 metres; a more realistic value might be if it were a factor of 10 out for an average height of 90m, but I haven't found any reliable sources on the matter that do not quote the erroneous 5 million cubic metre area. 194.230.148.57 (talk) 20:03, 24 November 2019 (UTC)

You are absolutely right, I deleted it. Podz00 (talk) 08:32, 25 November 2019 (UTC)

Reverting larger changes without consensus

I'm planning on reverting (manually, cleaning up) a few changes, unless consensus here states otherwise.

Here's one: [removed description diff https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_largest_church_buildings&diff=882510552&oldid=882500455] saying "Clean up lead section of list according to WP:SAL", But WP:SALLEAD states "makes direct statements about the criteria by which members of the list were selected". So while the original was too wordy, I'm going to include the direct statements about inclusion. I think we should be consistent about inclusion / exclusion examples, I.e. say something like "The Hagia Sophia in, Conference Center (LDS Church) out", or we exclude both? I'm leaning towards including both for clarity to readers.

On a related note, This church was removed: [diff https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_largest_church_buildings&diff=prev&oldid=857586888] With the comment: "Not actively used as a church".

| 11,600 || || First Family Church || || Overland Park, Kansas || United States || First Family Church || Closed in 2011. Now the Hilltop Learning Center in the Blue Valley School District

But it's clearly in the same category as Hagia Sophia.

I also think we should include an image. This image was removed. Possibly because it's caption is a bit contested, so I'll clean that up.

St. Peter's Basilica, the largest church in the world.

Let me know what you think. McKay (talk) 08:18, 12 December 2019 (UTC)

References

Inclusion Criteria

WP:SALLEAD Says the list leads should make "direct statements about the criteria by which members of the list were selected, unless inclusion criteria are unambiguously clear from the article title". I think it's clear that the inclusion criteria are **Not** clear from the title. We had one, but it was removed. Here's what it said:

The term church is open to interpretation and debate. In this article, it means any building that was built for the primary purpose of weekly public Christian worship.

Earlier (random date in 2013) we had

The term church is open to interpretation and debate. In this article, it means any building that was built for the primary purpose of Christian worship, for any recognised denomination of Christianity. This includes every cathedral (the seat of a bishop), basilica, and other type of church. It does not include temples of other religions, such as mosques, synagogues, and so on. It does include at least one building, Hagia Sophia, that was built as a church and later became a mosque (it is now a museum).

Definition

So, what *should* the criteria be? I've consulted a few dictionaries, and dictionaries defines church as "building [consecrated] for public [Christian] worship" Let's take it apart:

Building

I don't think this word is ambiguous. The Tabernacle of Moses was not a building. The Temple of Solomon was a building. Both would likely be excluded for other reasons, as mentioned below, but I'm just making a comparison.

Consecrated

This word isn't present in all dictionaries, and I think they include it to separate it from homes, or buildings used for other purposes as well (like office buildings). It may not be necessary, but I think it would add value to the list, as it would exclude places like the Astrodome, that have held worship services on occasion. But just because church was held there, doesn't mean it is a church. However, I think it should include the main building of Lakewood Church Central Campus, because while it wasn't built as a church, extensive renovations have occurred, and I think more people would think that it is a church than the building of Calvary Temple, and I don't think people would deny that Calvary's building is a church. That does question the inclusion of Hagia Sophia, but I think we can apply a similar wikipedia principle: Once a topic is notable, it is always notable. I say we put a little note on there describing how it isn't a church anymore, and call it good.

Public

There's a few definitions of "public" as an adjective in the dictionaries, but when the phrase "public worship" is used, I believe the definition of public used in this sense that is along the lines of "of or relating to community interests as opposed to private affairs". This would exclude homes, where *private* worship occurs. The point of public worship, is people worshiping together.

Christian

This isn't required by all definitions, but I think we have consensus that it should be a criteria. The question that remains is who should be included. I don't think there's much disagreement, but we include Jehovah's Witness, Protestant, Mormon, and Catholic buildings. We exclude Zoroastrian, Jewish, Islam, Universalists, Bahai.

Worship

This one is another tricky one. But I think places that are primarily used for sermons or ceremonies or both should be included. This would exclude office buildings or printing buildings owned by religious institutions, but would include assembly halls, [religious] basilicas, and cathedrals, even though they may not be called a "church".

Other Limits

Just going off that criteria, there would be millions of such buildings, so we need a cut off point. I think 3k m² of area has consensus for a lower bound. That might make the list a little large, but I think it's a decent starting point. Anything smaller than that should not be included unless it has a verifiably very large capacity (and in those cases, put a special note explaining the inclusion). I claim that unusually long or tall churches should not be included (unless, of course, they meet the area or capacity requirements), because we already have separate lists for List of tallest church buildings and List of longest church buildings. (maybe we merge them in later, but I think this should get cleaned up first).

Also, I think we need to have a verifiable source for the area for inclusion. I'm thinking *perhaps* we soften that requirement if the building is 1) inherently notable, and therefore 2) has it's own non-stubbed article 3) with a location marker on that to a map, and an area can be discerned by aerial photography. But that is almost Original Research, so maybe not. Maybe we'll never really need that.

What do you think? Anyone have any concerns? Am I missing something? McKay (talk) 04:55, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

I like what you've said here, I think that these criteria would be a good method of gate-keeping. However, given the push back noted above regarding the inclusion of non-traditional church buildings (e.g. LDS Conference Center, Lakewood Church in Houston, etc.) it might be a good idea to break the list down into different categories. For example, you might have a list for overall largest, largest by volume, largest by usable floor space, largest by capacity, etc. As I'm sitting here typing, though, I am having a hard time coming up with a category description which would get at what this page seems to have been originally created to capture because I don't know a good way to describe a traditional church building. It would seem to be an issue of architectural form rather than building function or use. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 168.51.179.254 (talk) 22:54, 16 January 2020 (UTC)

I question the express omission of buildings characterised as “shrines,” even if such a shrine is a place of Christian worship—such as the National Shrine of the Immaculate Conception, which rightfully should be included. Wikipedia’s own article on shrines quotes Canon 1230 of the Roman Catholic 1983 Code of Canon Law to say “The term shrine means a church or other sacred place which, with the approval of the local Ordinary, is by reason of special devotion frequented by the faithful as pilgrims….” In other words, a shrine may be a particular type of church. While some shrines are not churches and some churches are not shrines, there is clearly a large intersection set. Therefore a shrine should not ipso facto be excluded from the list by reason of its having been designated a shrine if it is nonetheless a church. Exeter wanderer (talk) 14:29, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

Munich + Berlin

The berlin cathedral is after infomation from Svenja Pelzel (works in the cathedral) in the ground square area the largest protestant german church, and munich cathedral has innert volume 217 000 m³. Its should be the largest hall church in the world. See: https://www.sueddeutsche.de/muenchen/sz-serie-der-sound-der-stadt-die-stimmen-des-herrn-1.3153222 --32-Fuß-Freak (talk) 13:09, 16 February 2020 (UTC)

The Ulm Munster has a larger ground square area than the Berlin Cathedral, which should however be added to the list.

As for the Munich Cathedral, on the Wikipedia page it is reported that it is the second largest hall church in the world, but I have no idea which is the first and how reliable the source is. --Podz00 (talk) 03:43, 17 February 2020 (UTC)

Criteria for inclusion on this list

It isn't entirely clear which buildings qualify to be included on this list. If we assume that it's "all places of Christian worship", then there are megachurches that should be on this list even though they're more similar to stadiums. There's one Mormon meetinghouse on this list, but no Mormon temples, and it might be that that's because they're not open to the public, but in that case, the article should specifically state that only public places of worship are included. Stelercus (talk) 02:00, 26 April 2020 (UTC)

• I'm going to add a link to List of the largest evangelical church auditoriums, as that kind of addresses your concern. McKay (talk) 19:39, 13 February 2022 (UTC)

Interior area needs to be clearly defined and page renamed

Interior area is not well defined in page nor is it defined well online as a whole. Many consider it floor area, some consider it footprint... What is this page comparing? I would suggest title "footprint" if it is footprint, or "floor area" if it is floor area.

What's exterior area? is it the entire church property? Is it only counting courtyards?

Also, "Large" generally compares volume. A single story building with 10 meter ceilings is going to be much larger than a single-story building with 3 meter ceilings (assuming the same footprint). I would suggest renaming "List of largest church buildings by footprint" or "List of largest church buildings by floor area". Thanks-Dmm1169 (talk) 17:05, 25 April 2022 (UTC)

@Dmm1169: There is actually not much clarity on definitions.

In most cases, "interior area" means the "net internal floor area", and "exterior area" means the "building footprint", which in my opinion should not include internal courtyards.

I agree with you on the volume as the main parameter to consider when drawing up the list, but unfortunately it is difficult to rely on that due to the scarcity of sources. It therefore seems a good idea to use the one with the most data available, which appears to be the interior area. However, I don't know if it's worth renaming the page just for this (the list can also be sorted by volume). --Podz00 (talk) 19:05, 25 April 2022 (UTC)

Podz00. Typically when I hear floor area it means the total square footage of all "living" space, at least in the US. So for example, a garage would not be considered "living" space to a house and if the house had 2nd floor would be added to the square footage of the first for the total floor area.

So is interior area the total floor area of all occupied floors of the religious building? I noticed in the "view history" tab you removed Salt Lake Temple in 2019 because you said it's not really a church and the floor area ≠ the building footprint. This seems to meet all criteria shown for inclusion and this is just one of several buildings for religious services that are not listed, but larger than the St. Peters Basilica. Examples of other large churches include Angkor Wat (Genesis World Record for largest religious structure) and Faisal Mosque. Any reason these aren't listed?

Also, List of largest buildings divides the page into multiple sections: Largest usable volume; Largest footprint; Largest floor area. Should this page be subdivided in similar sections? Thanks.- Dmm1169 (talk) 20:08, 25 April 2022 (UTC)

@Dmm1169: The "floor area" here almost always refers to a single floor, the main one of the church reserved for religious functions, otherwise it would have to include crypts, mezzanines, sacristies, etc... it would be really complicated and there would be little data of this type available; almost certainly none of the interior areas listed here include these spaces. I think this partially answers the question about the Salt Lake Temple.

The other reason for my edit was that this list shouldn't include all religious buildings, only church buildings in the strict sense. For temples, auditoriums and megachurches there are other lists, although this point is somewhat unclear in the description and there are other discussions about it.

Regarding your last question, I don't think there is a need. The list of largest buildings brings together buildings of different types, but here it is very unlikely that a church with an internal area that is among the largest in the world will not also be among the largest in terms of volume and external area (and vice versa). --Podz00 (talk) 23:37, 25 April 2022 (UTC)

Podz00, If it shouldn't include all religious buildings, than the title and criteria really needs to reflect such. If the page is intended to compare floor areas, I would recommend renaming the page "List of Largest Church Buildings by floor area" so the page matches the title. Also, the title is "List of Largest Church Buildings", not "List of Largest Church Buildings Except...". Most sanctuaries in churches I've walked in are, at least to some degree, built like an auditorium, with it being the primary room in most of these buildings. The List of the largest evangelical church auditoriums does not specify floor area, and this page does not address capacity size. The Lakewood Church building used in the criteria example is an auditorium and excluded from the list.

You're correct in the definition of floor area. My confusion in this however is that other lists within Wikipedia, such as List of largest buildings#Largest floor area define it as combined area of all floors and had "footprint" being defined similar to floor area. Consequently, other building comparison pages I've seen have done the some. So when I got to this page, I assumed combination of all floors. Consequently, it may be best to at least briefly define "floor area".

Wikipedia's definition for Church (building) is "a building used for Christian worship services and other Christian religious activities." Should mosques (including the one in the criteria example) and other non-Christian buildings need to be excluded, or should the page be renamed with the words "largest religious buildings"?

The Salt Lake Temple has a combined floor area of 23,506 square meters over four floors. This would mean it would still make the list using simple division, although the actual floor area is not known since the lowest level is significantly larger than the others. It meets all other criteria to be on the list: It was built and used for religious services; its still standing; It's not an auditorium, although similar to other church buildings it has rooms for larger congregations as previously explained.

I know this comment got lengthy. In brief, the main issue I see is that the content needs to match the title and vice versa, and that some things may need to be better defined in criteria due to inconsistencies with other pages. Thanks.- Dmm1169 (talk) 13:21, 26 April 2022 (UTC)

@Dmm1169: The page is intended to compare both floor areas and volumes. The generic title "largest church buildings" makes sense to me since you can decide which parameter to sort the list by.

---

If the list of the largest evangelical church auditoriums does not specify floor area then it could be improved. It is true that the title here does not expressly indicate the type of church, but in the description it is clearly written that the auditoriums are excluded from the list, and in my opinion it makes sense, because, although the function is similar, the type of building from an architectural viewpoint is totally different.

Also, the Salt Lake Temple is indeed a "temple" that has little to do with the architectural features of a proper church. In the Wikipedia page that lists buildings of this type, it is specified that “they are not churches or meetinghouses, but rather specialized places of worship”.

The same goes for non-Christian religious buildings (non- churches) for which other pages should be created if not already there, imho.

---

You're right about lack of clarity on the floor area (interior area), because, for example, churches like Riverside Church in NYC, if you were to consider all the floors, would probably be at the top of the list...rather strange.

The things that indeed really should be better defined on this page are the internal and external area. --Podz00 (talk) 17:34, 26 April 2022 (UTC)

Podz00 I tried to sum up the criteria for inclusion and added the definition of floor area. Hopefully this will help future readers. I removed the prohibition on auditorium churches, but not sure how many will actually be added.

Here in the US, most buildings are measured by the combined area of all floors. Consequently, I tried to find the floor area of Lakewood church which is listed in the example for repurposed building. Several sources stated it has a combined area of 606,000 sf for all 3 levels, but I couldn't find a source that stated capacity or volume. I think either an additional table or column that shows and sorts by combined area of all floors would be helpful. Thanks.-Dmm1169 (talk) 22:28, 26 April 2022 (UTC)

@Dmm1169: Even if the inclusion of auditorium churches on the list is not formally wrong, I find the type of building a little out of place, but that's okay if no one else has objections.

Yes, adding a fourth column with the total interior area of all floors might be a good idea. --Podz00 (talk) 00:06, 27 April 2022 (UTC)

I'm personally not a fan of large auditorium churches, but that's not my place. Megachurches consider their building a church and it does fits the purpose similar to other church buildings-just at a larger scale. I'm sure there's a list of Wikipedia guidelines that were violated by specifically banning them from the list - particularly in the field of neutrality. At the same time, with church being defined as a Christian building, it prohibits Mosques and Synagogues from being on the list. Referencing is still required which will omit some of these megachurches that would otherwise be on the list. Also, there's an overlapping purpose of churches, shrines, and temples in some belief structures so there's still going to be grey area, but not as much as before. Dmm1169 (talk) 02:49, 27 April 2022 (UTC)

Unreliable source + possible reliable source on St. Peter's

The "WorldAtlas" is cited at least twice in this article (this and this), but I strongly suspect this is not an independent and reliable source. The figures listed on that site seem to be probably copied from this Wikipedia list around the time that they were written (spring 2018); e.g. compare them with the March 2018 version of this article. Notice the invariably identical names, numbers, and order, and the near-identical placements of "(interior)" after certain numbers. It also includes some former figures here that were later revised, such as this and the figure of 5,000,000 cubic metres for St-Peter's, which was removed here (see also earlier discussion above) but has since been re-added by citing this website.

Given that it's a random website that doesn't clarify its own sources, I assume it merely pulled its facts from Wikipedia at the time. If so, then citing it here is WP:CIRCULAR.

Relatedly, I came across this source (see p. 241) which gives the volume of St Peter's as 1.6 million cubic metres, which throws the current figure of 5 million further into question. The author cites Scotti 2007 as their source, and while I couldn't find the relevant passage in its Google preview, I see no reason to think the figure is unreliable.

PS: Pinging Podz00, because I noticed that you previously revised the figures mentioned above and you commented on the previous discussion about St. Peter's. Cheers, R Prazeres (talk) 20:08, 11 April 2023 (UTC)

@R Prazeres I agree with you, I wouldn't trust that source. Unfortunately, most non-specialist or tourist websites/books get this kind of information directly from Wikipedia.

There is no doubt that the volume measurement of St. Peter's basilica is 100% unrealistic, while the one in the book you mention (1,600,000 cubic meters) is certainly much more convincing (btw, the first link you posted doesn't work). Podz00 (talk) 23:39, 11 April 2023 (UTC)

Oops, sorry, must've made some kind of copy-paste error in the url, try this link (Smil 2020, "Growth: From Microorganisms to Megacities", p.241). I also recently added it to the article with regards to the interior area of the Seville cathedral ([8]), so if helpful we can just repeat the citation for St. Peter's volume. R Prazeres (talk) 23:51, 11 April 2023 (UTC)

@R Prazeres Oh ok, I hadn't noticed it was the same source. It's fine with me ✔ Podz00 (talk) 00:14, 12 April 2023 (UTC)

Great, I'll go ahead and change the volume for St. Peter's then, and remove these two apparent circular references. R Prazeres (talk) 00:31, 12 April 2023 (UTC)

St. Petersburg’s St. Isaac

This Russian Cathedral is quite large, I wonder why it did not make The list? Thanks, Nerissa-Marie (talk) 01:25, 28 October 2023 (UTC)

@Nerissa-Marie It's already there, look again :) Podz00 (talk) 01:57, 28 October 2023 (UTC)

Ah, with 4000+ square metres inside and 7000 outside… THANK YOU for replying! Nerissa-Marie (talk) 22:13, 29 October 2023 (UTC)

Formating Fix

I'm not sure if it's only on mobile, but for me it says "1. Name (& rest of categories) 2.St Peters bassilica" when it should just be 1. St peters Bassilica Fgzeb (talk) 16:41, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

No entry of major big churches.

There is no entry of Saint John's Cathedral in Lateran, one of the biggest in the world with over 10.000 sq mts, or Metz's Cathedral in France with 3.5000 sq mts. Is a very off list. 2A02:587:5F2E:E0DA:DDFD:8301:D4F:4625 (talk) 09:54, 11 October 2024 (UTC)