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Talk:List of islands of Hainan

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Paracel and Spratly

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Pdfpdf removed Paracel Islands and Spratly Islands‎ with the edit summary "...The south China Sea is NOT part of Hainan. For that matter, neither is Sansha..."

Category:Islands of Hainan has Paracel Islands and Spratly Islands‎.

I suggest adding them back, but in the see also section per discussion at Template talk:Islands of Hainan#What this navbox should contain and where it should be placed

Thoughts?

Anna Frodesiak (talk) 22:43, 31 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

As previously discussed, neither the Paracels nor the Spratlys are "Islands of Hainan". If you want to add Paracel Islands and Spratly Islands‎ to the see also of List of islands of Hainan, I don't see a big problem, but I also don't see any point. The Paracels are part of Sansha, not Hainan. Pdfpdf (talk) 07:09, 4 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Pdfpdf. I'm confused. Paracel Islands says "administered" by Hainan. Spratly Islands says "Prefecture-level city" is Sansha, Hainan. Please help me understand. Best, Anna Frodesiak (talk) 00:44, 6 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Anna! As I previously said, I'm happy to try to help, but I can't promise to solve the problems of the universe! ;-)
One of the reasons that you're confused is that it is confusing - to everyone, not just you. Like I said previously, I'll have a go at an explanation, but I expect that you may want me to clarify some things, so please ask, and I'll try to do so.
Very, very short answer: The problem is separating fact from propaganda. To expand:

First issue is that a lot of this is political and thus subjective, so distinguishing fact from propaganda is an important step, but how to do this is not always obvious. So let's start with me imperfectly trying to separate the facts from the opinion:

  • (fact) Hainan is a big island off the south coast of "China" aka the PRC
  • (opinion) I prefer to refer to the "China" as the PRC, because (fact) the ROC (Taiwan) is also referred to as "China", so (diasmbiguation) I use PRC & ROC rather than "China". (I acknowledge that others are less pedantic than me! ;-)
  • (fact) "Hainan" is also the name of some level of PRC administrative entity. (Note that en:wikipedia does NOT disambiguate between the Island and the administrative entity.)
  • (fact) Sanya is a city on the south coast of Hainan (Interesting place - have a look at the page. BTW: I often manage to confuse myself with "Sanya" v "Sansha".)
  • (fact) Sansha is the name of some level of PRC administrative entity. (opinion - and not just my opinion) "Sansha" appears to be some sort of artificial construct of the PRC.

So there is a need to distinguish between geographic features and their names, and political/administrative features and their names.
And there is also a need to distinguish between "Islands of Hainan Island" (whatever that means), and "Islands of Hainan Political/Administrative whatever" (and whatever that means), and also the (facts - plural) that there are five other countries claiming the areas that PRC is is asserting to be "theirs", but that no-one else on the planet (including the International Court of Justice in The Hague) is recognising as "theirs". <pause - I will continue later> Pdfpdf (talk) 10:47, 7 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
My apologies - It's late, I'm tired - I will continue later. Pdfpdf (talk) 12:52, 7 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Pdfpdf. Thank you! That clears up a lot. Okay, so if I'm getting this right: We can have categories that say those islands down there are part of Hainan to help people search, but adding to articles that those islands are part of Hainan is misleading. The main reason is that they are not part of the province, but claimed as part of the admin. Since that is controversial, stating that in articles without a good explanation, is a bad plan. Since List of islands of Hainan does not go into that, and is not a good place to explain all that, it is best not mentioned there. Just leave it out. Now, I've copy edited the lead to now say "...There are many islands directly off the coast of Hainan Island, the southernmost province in China. This article lists them. There are also groups of disputed islands located hundreds of kilometres away that are within Hainan, the administrative area, but not actually part of Hainan, the province. Those islands are not within the scope of this article..." I hope that makes it clear to visitors. By the way, I live in Haikou, the capital of Hainan. Many thanks again for the wise explanation. If I am getting it wrong, please say. Best, Anna Frodesiak (talk) 03:02, 8 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Anna. I'm impressed with your concise summary, and I like the way you have identified the issues in so few words. I also like the fact that you have incorporated this into the article - a task I personally would never have embarked upon through fear of stepping on too many delicate toes. Good job. Well done. Thank you. Pdfpdf (talk) 11:08, 8 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for the very kind words, Pdfpdf. And thank you for helping me understand things better. I know how you feel though about stepping on toes. People often seem to start with their heels quite dug in. A couple of open ears and a bit of an open mind is always good. Best wishes, my friend, and thanks again. :) Anna Frodesiak (talk) 11:22, 8 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
What a lovely response Anna. Thank you! Pdfpdf (talk) 11:32, 8 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

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