Talk:List of humorists

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Organization

You may want to organize these by country. Just my two cents. Rilr 12:04, 6 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia:Notability (comedy)

I've created Wikipedia:Notability (comedy) to help editors in deciding the notability of comedy- and humor-related articles. Please help hammer it into shape. --Chris Griswold (☎☓) 09:01, 15 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Who copied from who and forgot to credit them?? http://www.answers.com/topic/list-of-humorists —Preceding unsigned comment added by 164.100.28.2 (talk • contribs)

Answers.com mirrors content from Wikipedia, therefore the list originates here, and is then shown there. Dreaded Walrus ^{t c} 22:02, 19 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Alphabetical order

Is there any particular reason why these names are alphabetized by first name rather than last name? This seems unusual to me. –BMRR (talk) 01:08, 12 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Seems unusual to me too. I favor re-ordering by last name. --Born2cycle (talk) 18:05, 1 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Hmmm... I wonder if there is an automated way to fix this... or will I have to wait for a rainy day and just do it manually... –BMRR (talk) 18:23, 14 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Done Big thanks to User:Rannpháirtí anaithnid for fixing the alphabetical order! –BMRR (talk) 00:52, 14 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Criteria?

I like this list, but some names are a bit puzzling: I would have thought that Jimmy Carr and Bill Hicks were primarily stand-up comics, they seem a out of place here. Not sure about George Carlin either. Tigerboy1966 (talk) 08:24, 6 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Should Jesus Christ be on this list? 31.185.229.112 (talk) 05:02, 5 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Add Larry Thompson humorist to list

Should not Larry Thompson (humorist) be in the list of humorists? Fleejoseph (talk) 06:29, 9 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Fleejoseph:No need. The Larry Thompson already listed on the page is Larry Thompson (humorist).Shortsword (talk) 13:46, 9 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Walt Disney

I find it hard to believe that Walt Disney is not on this list. Vorbee (talk) 08:54, 21 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

First of all, we have a strict policy of WP:verifiability based on WP:reliable sources; our own opinions absent this are frowned upon as original research. We can't just call Disney a humorist if he is not recognized as such by reliable sources.

This list defines a humorist simply as "an intellectual who uses humor in writing or public speaking", and it's defined at a bit more length in the Humorist page ("A humorist is adept at seeing the humor in a situation or aspect of life and relating it, usually through a story"; "The humorist is primarily a writer of books, newspaper or magazine articles or columns, stage or screen plays, and may occasionally appear before an audience to deliver a lecture or read a piece of his or her work." That certainly doesn't sound like Disney, who was a showman, TV and film producer, even if much of what he produced is considered humorous.

The iconic humorist is Mark Twain, therefore any potential humorist should pass the "Mark Twain test". JustinTime55 (talk) 14:28, 22 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Uncited, indiscriminate list

The article has been tagged as needing citations. None of the names listed here has a citation, proving it belongs on the list. Lists like this one very easily become indiscriminate, in this case by editors not understanding that a comedian (stand-up performer, often actors) is not necessarily a humorist (most famous example is Mark Twain; these are literate people, most often writers.)

Some improvement suggestions:

If citations can't be found, there should at least be short descriptions of each entry, showing why they belong on the list.
It has been suggested that the list be broken up, e.g. by nationality.
Red links definitely shouldn't be put here; there is absolutely no way of verifying if such a name belongs. There is also WP:NOTABILITY to observe. JustinTime55 (talk) 19:27, 17 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

John Neal?

You recently reverted my addition of John Neal (writer) to List of humorists on the grounds that there is "no evidence Neal was known as a humorist." Because he was such an intertextual writer, he is not known primarily (heck, he's a pretty marginal historical figure, though many scholars believe he deserves more recognition) for any one of the genres in which he wielded notable influence, but humor writing is indeed among those genres. For example, he was included in a list of 41 American "satire and humor writers" in American Political Humor (2019),^[1] - a text that is cited in John Neal (writer). Neal also likely influenced his friend Seba Smith,^[2] who is also included on that list of 41 humor writers.

You also noted that I didn't adhere to the chronological order of the list. Sorry I didn't realize! I was looking for alphabetical ordering and didn't find any, so I just stuck him at the top.

I propose putting Neal back on the list (in his chronological spot) and adding a note to the top of the list to the effect of "names are listed below chronologically by birth year" or something like that so people like me aren't confused in the future. What do you say?

Dugan Murphy (talk) 16:24, 10 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Why didn't you put this into the List of humorists talk page instead, so that other editors can establish a consensus as to whether this improves the article or not? You have declared on your talk page that your agenda is essentially to promote John Neal. I'm not so sure he's a sufficiently notable humorist, outside of academic circles.

If you have a reliable source that says he was a humorist, you need to include it.
Do we include Seba Smith as a humorist, too? Where do we draw the line?
Chronological is the most logical order for the list. I don't think it's necessary to explicitly say this in the article. JustinTime55 (talk) 16:54, 10 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@JustinTime55: Thank you for moving this conversation to this talk page. Though my Wikipedia account is 14 years old, I just started using talk pages, so I'm still figuring out the customs. As to your other points:

Sure, I can include the above reference in listing John Neal.
Since you brought it up, yes, I think Seba Smith deserves to be on the list too. My understanding is that he is considered the grandfather of Maine humor storytelling, with a direct lineage of influence leading to Tim Sample, who is on this list. [This newspaper article from 2018] sums up that lineage. I would be happy to add Smith with this and/or another citation. My experience with list articles on Wikipedia is that they are expansive and never complete. This article rightly excludes comedians, who have their own list, but my sense is that if a person is noteworthy enough to warrant a biographical Wikipedia article and is also noteworthy as a humorist, they should be included, even if the average person on the street corner would not recognize their name and even if that person is noteworthy for other occupations.
I don't think it's necessary to reorder the list by name, but I do still think that a note about the chronological order would be helpful to future editors. I like the simple note at the top of List of comedians. But that's not super important to me.

I propose that if a person is noteworthy enough to warrant a biographical Wikipedia article and there is at least one reliable source naming that person as a humorist, they should be eligible for inclusion on this list. @JustinTime55: Do you have different criteria to propose or a modification on mine? I'm also curious to hear from any others who are interested in this article. -Dugan Murphy (talk) 18:20, 14 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I'm trying to go by the WP:Notability guideline as I understand it, and the WP:Listcruft essay. I guess I don't care so much now whether he's included here or not; but I'd still like to get a consensus from others, but all we seem to be hearing is crickets...

This was my thought process:

I confused myself and thought we were in the list embedded in the Humorist article, and didn't realize this is the the stand-alone (more inclusive) list.
I checked Neal's page, and could not find any statement there that he was considered a humorist. If you consider your source reliable enough, why didn't you add it there?
As I understand the GNG, "significant coverage" is required ("more than a trivial mention"); "multiple sources are generally expected".
Note only some of the entries are filled in with one-line descriptions and put in chronological order. The rest of the list is just a large list of names that anyone could have added; some were comedians and not humorists. I tried to start combing through the list but didn't get very far.
I wouldn't care so much if you want to put Neal back here (with your citation, please), but I believe the list embedded in the Humorist page needs to be much more selective and should not include him. His notability (as a humorist) seems to be limited to academic circles, rather than popular reputation.
If you include your source, I wouldn't object so much to putting Neal back here. JustinTime55 (talk) 19:40, 14 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@JustinTime55: In that case I'll add Neal back in and add Seba Smith as well, with citations. I agree that Neal is not notable enough as a humorist to be included in the Humorist article. Noticing now that this list is partially chronologically ordered and partially alphabetical as you mentioned, I see why I was confused at my first posting. -Dugan Murphy (talk) 22:18, 14 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

References

^ Baumgartner, Jody C., ed. (2019). American Political Humor: Masters of Satire and Their Impact on U.S. Policy and Culture. Santa Barbara, California: ABC-CLIO. p. xvi. ISBN 9781440854866.
^ Kayorie, James Stephen Merritt (2019). "John Neal (1793-1876)". In Baumgartner, Jody C. (ed.). American Political Humor: Masters of Satire and Their Impact on U.S. Policy and Culture. Santa Barbara, California: ABC-CLIO. p. 86. ISBN 9781440854866.

[1] Baumgartner, Jody C., ed. (2019). American Political Humor: Masters of Satire and Their Impact on U.S. Policy and Culture. Santa Barbara, California: ABC-CLIO. p. xvi. ISBN 9781440854866.

[2] Kayorie, James Stephen Merritt (2019). "John Neal (1793-1876)". In Baumgartner, Jody C. (ed.). American Political Humor: Masters of Satire and Their Impact on U.S. Policy and Culture. Santa Barbara, California: ABC-CLIO. p. 86. ISBN 9781440854866.

[1]

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