Talk:List of historic places in Southwestern Ontario

Kincardine local historic sites

Kincardine sites are covered in this document, which includes links to local law listings of each one. I just tried adding two sites, the Madison House (Kincardine, Ontario) and another one, but am having trouble using the municipal item column. Any tips? Help! --Doncram (talk) 18:09, 9 July 2018 (UTC) P.S. This topic comes up due to ongoing Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Madison House (Kincardine, Ontario). --Doncram (talk) 21:39, 9 July 2018 (UTC)

This article is not the right place for that information, as it appears the only Kincardine place on the Canadian Historic Register is here: [1] SportingFlyer talk 18:23, 9 July 2018 (UTC)

The CRHP database is likely incomplete. I'm fairly certain (based on a recent pass through the entire database to update these lists) that there are probably a number of heritage designation authorities whose listings are not represented in it. Bruce County and/or its subdivisions may well be one of those. If these lists are defined to be only of things that appear in the CRHP (which is what the lead says), then the Kincardine listings should not appear here until they appear in the CRHP. Magic♪piano 18:45, 9 July 2018 (UTC)

They say as much on the website, but I can't find anything that shows any other property in Kincardine is on the register after a couple searches. I do note here that Kingston has 120 properties on the national register and over 1,000 on the local register, further emphasizing the Kincardine sites should be left off until shown they are on the register: [2] SportingFlyer talk 18:55, 9 July 2018 (UTC)

Okay, this seems like a useful discussion, what to do about locally listed properties that are not explicitly listed in the CRHP database. I may post a notice at wt:CANADA. Some thoughts:

• I hope we can agree this is simply an editorial question, about whether to include local listings into the existing system of lists, or whether to have separate list-articles for them. About the Kincardine ones, there is sufficient online documentation, including links to the specific town resolutions/local laws for each listing, to be sure that this is a legal system, and IMHO it is clear the list of Kincardine listings is a Wikipedia-notable topic. Either there will be a separate list-article for them, or they can be included into the Bruce County list-article section.
• Magicpiano has observed there are other local lists left out. CRHP listing doesn't necessarily convey any benefits to a local government, and authority to designate local historic places is already fully delegated to local governments, and we have this Kincardine example, so I suppose there may be numerous other examples. Based on treatment of local historic site lists in the U.S. and elsewhere, I think that any local registry is pretty obviously merits Wikipedia coverage as a list-article. If there is a complete list of the local listings available, I think any editor could list them all out. But the existing system seems good and could be comprehensive and incorporate the Kincardine items, perhaps requiring a new column.
• About Kingston, SportingFlyer points us to source mentioning "Kingston's rich history and culture endures and is kept alive by our treasured heritage properties. To give members some perspective, about 120 buildings in Kingston belong on the national register of historic places, and more than 1,000 are listed on the city's municipal register and designated under the Ontario Heritage Act." In List of historic places in Kingston, Ontario which might have 120 items (it is not numbered and I am not counting), I notice that "Market Square Heritage Conservation District" in Kingston is just one CRHP listing, as a historic district, apparently under Part V of the Ontario Heritage Act:

• Kingston's webpage: "At the municipal level, there are two types of designations under the Ontario Heritage Act – Part IV and Part V. Part IV designations refer to individual heritage properties. Part V designations refer to a grouping of heritage properties known as a Heritage Conservation District."
• Based on defined bounds of the district and Bing satellite view, I would guess there are 50 to 100 buildings in that Market Square Heritage Conservation District, probably each included into the municipal register. Other CRHP listings in Kingston may have several buildings, but there are no other wide historic districts defined, AFAICT. So I presume there are then 700 or so scattered places listed in the municipal register not itemized on CRHP.
• About other Kingston local listings, Kingston's webpage: "Section 27 of the Ontario Heritage Act allows municipalities to list or inventory properties of cultural heritage value that are not designated under Part IV or Part V of the Act. These properties are not afforded the same level of protection as a designated property. While a Heritage Permit is not required for alterations to the property, owners are always welcome to seek staff advice. An owner of a "listed" property is required to give Council 60 days notice of their intention to demolish a building (or portion of a building) on the property."
• I assume less is available about these, so maybe no one should want to create a list-article itemizing them. Hmm, here is Kingston's list of them all, 124 pages long, with only one column "Name/Notes" having a tiny bit of info available for many of them.

• What is available for each of the Kincardine places is a lot more than is readily available for Kingston's municipal listings. It seems worthwhile to develop a Wikipedia list for the Kincardine ones, separately I guess from List of historic places in Southwestern Ontario, in order to include descriptive information into them. Then maybe consider merger back, if the SW Ontario list-article can be modified to include descriptive info in a column? --Doncram (talk) 20:09, 9 July 2018 (UTC)