Talk:List of gothic rock artists/Archive 1

Joy Divison

should be on here. in fact, there is no J section

Nope. They set the precedent for the style, but they aren't a goth rock band proper. WesleyDodds 03:51, 21 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

then why make a big deal out of it, when in fact, you have some bands on there, that are not really goth rock proper to begin with? She Wants Revenge for an example, started out to be goth rock, and is now Indie...Billybob3165 10:54 am, July 31, 2006

She Wants Revenge is post-punk revival/wave revival. Dark yes, but so are the Editors and Interpol. Are they goth, no. So they should NOT be on this list. I will do a "J" section, there are a handfull of goth bands who start with a J.

Justyn1337 19:06, 17 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Evanescence

Are they really a gothic rock band? Folkor 16:50, 19 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Cute, gothy lead singer does not a goth band make. That's why I removed them from the list not too long ago. Evidently, they're back... DeadLeafEcho 18:48, 19 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

It seems to always be an anonymous edit. Crap, this is annoying. WesleyDodds 20:25, 19 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed. So is it common consensus that the band does not belong on the list? Folkor 16:02, 21 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

yes but read the article it all says gothic rock so they have to go somewhere. if they arent gothic rock what are they- i love them but even i dont know. if it isnt on this list then the whole article needs changing genre wise. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Childzy (talk • contribs)

Hmm... I'm not exactly sure what your saying, but I don't think they would fall under Gothic Rock by default. They have sometimes dreary lyrics, but their arrangements and musical style are way too numetalpop (*cough*cliche) to be goth. They would be Alt Rock I guess, moody, but Alt nonetheless. Goth has a pretty recognizable sound that Evanescence's sound doesn't really even resemble.DeadLeafEcho 06:29, 28 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I'd agree with that. Evanescence is clearly influenced by gothic rock but not a part of the movement themselves. Folkor 16:10, 28 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

On the talk page I am actually debating the gothic rock listing. In truth, they are more adequately classified as nu metal or alternative metal. WesleyDodds 21:02, 28 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, but Nu metal is bands like Slipknot, Limp Bizkit, and System of A Down, and Evanescence sounds nothing like them.

Correct, but they sound nothing alike, do they? Slipknot is wannabe-black, Limp Bizkit is all Rappy, and SoaD have a reasonably unique sound. Evanescence really aren't metal, they are pop rocky, and are generally considered to be 'Gothic' for some reason. J Milburn 17:01, 2 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

they are not pop rocky??? what's wrong with you??? I would say some of their songs are goth rock, but not all of them, i can't put them in one catagory, but I love them anyway!!! James

I say they should be added, at least tentitivly, because some of their songs are definately gothic, especially their earlier stuff. Mariofreak 20:00, 2 August 2006 (UTC) MarioFreak[reply]

His point is that "gothic" does not equate to "gothic rock" even if it is "gothic" and "rock" it may not be "gothic rock". Compare Evanescence to Bauhaus or Xymox. Also, gothic rock would never, ever, use rapping. :) - BalthCat 22:48, 2 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I see your point, and I guess you're refering to Bring Me To Life when you're talking about rapping which I guess was made to be more commercial and have a wider audience. So what catagory are Evanescence anyway? Which list should they be in? Mariofreak 10:27, 3 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I might stick them in where you stick Rammstein? I don't know, I haven't listened to them in some time now. All I remember is kinda ... metally stuff with industrial tinges. - BalthCat 05:05, 5 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

They have never been goth

This band is not gothic rock so please stop adding them.

This band is in no way gothic rock. Listen to some actual gothic rock bands and then them. Hear a difference? Yes. So, please stop adding them. Jeeze.....Crescentia 00:39, 27 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Evanescence is emo

i repeat. Evanescence is emo. seriously. or, in any case, it is something very commercial, and something not belonging to any of the first, second, or third generation as stated in the gothic rock article. they're not even british. IleanaCosanziana 02:35, 18 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Um...no they are not. They are nu-metal. Also, bands do not have to be British to be gothic rock. -Crescentia

i honestly don't care what they are. (personally, i find that nu metal can be very easily associated with emo in that they all dress the same, have the same distortion-dull guitar riffs and they all address the same public segment. i mean, let's face it. if linkin park was labeled nu metal why can't i label evanescence emo? it's all the same) they're just not gothic rock. as for the being brit is not a necessary requirement for being goth business, i was *coughs* sarcastic. IleanaCosanziana 11:07, 24 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

--You weren't trying to be sarcastic....admit it.-Crescentia

Evanescence is a goth-influenced post grunge band, they are not goth, emo, or nu-metal —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 74.46.187.214 (talk) 21:34, August 21, 2007 (UTC)

Ayria

Why was she on this list? She is a futurepop artist. I took the liberty of removing her. and making sure she is on the futurepop list.

Justyn1337 16:18, 8 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Lacuna Coil

There wiki page says there goth metal, but there not on the list, so are they or are they not goth?

'They're' Gothic Metal, not Gothic Rock, as you just said. J Milburn 16:59, 2 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

They are a nu-metal band. Not all nu-metal sounds alike, which I guess gives their silly little fans some credit. --Justyn1337 16:14, 8 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Marilyn Manson

why arent they on the list? what isnt goth about them?

The fact that while they take a lot visually from goth as a subculture, they have nothing in common with goth as a music form. WesleyDodds 11:05, 29 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Heavy Metal

Its getting rather tiresome having to remove Heavy Metal bands from the list all the time. For people adding to the list, Gothic rock is a form of Post-Punk music... it is not a subgenre of heavy metal, so please stop adding metal bands such as Cradle of Filth, Trivium, Nightwish, etc to the list. - Deathrocker 21:46, 2 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

in any case, i think the word ROCK should give the gothic metal band fans some clue to the differences between the music they listen to (it's f***ing METAL, you idiots) and the music gothic rock bands did/do. or at least i hoped it would.IleanaCosanziana 02:42, 18 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Marilyn Manson is an industrial metal/shock rock artist. Not even the Spooky Kids were a goth rock band, they were a garage industrial act. This page is for gothic rock, not industrial metal.

List of muscians of Gothic Rock errors..

Frontline Assembly Apoptygma Berzerk Razed in Black Zeromancer VNV Nation

These are all EBM artists (with the exception of Zeromancer which would be nu-metal with an industrial rock flaire). I am removing them.

Added "J" Section

Feel free to add more. But if I see Joy Division on this I am adding Gang of Four and Chameleons UK to be a bastard. Justyn1337 19:12, 17 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Not Goths

While superb, Siouxsie and The Cure are not Goths. Siouxsie were always punk, even when they were post punk and the Cure - well they wrote 'Friday I'm in Love' - come on!!! Groups like Placebo come higher on the Gothometer than the Cure, who, let's face it have not even been remotely interesting since Disintegration.

i personally find "friday i'm inlove" to be very depressive/gloomy, and, thus, goth. :| for me, placebo invented/influenced (if not are part of) today's emo bands, like My Chemical Romance (especially in attire).IleanaCosanziana 02:47, 18 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

As for joy Division - the term Gothic came from their management and they were a superb group in the context of the time especially, but they were also not Gothic.

Groups like Marilyn Manson and Nick Cave and the Bad Seeds wish they were Goths but they are just moaning grave robbers who have no identity or originality (in my humble opinion). Him is just a soft rock group with a few dark romantic songs and some Goth imagery.

Evanescence, I understand why people think they are gothic, the album 'Fallen' certainly crosses into Goth territory with some of the lyrics - I have no problem with that. It's the image that bothers me - it's cool to be Goth at the moment - even all these US teen punk groups are wearing black. I'm actually in fashion again - clothes I've been wearing for 20 years look designed. We'll have to wait and see how Gothic Evanescence are - the new single is about as Goth as Kylie.

The Banshees and The Cure have yielded Juju and Pornography, respectively, which are pivotal albums in gothic rock. I mean, it's hard to deny that they fit the mold of the genre: [1] [2] WesleyDodds 20:09, 25 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I would still disagree with both The Cure and The Banshees. I love both groups and was lucky enough to see them live on a number of occasions but although they were more than Punk and they fitted into the Goth scheme in a number of areas - more in imagery than anything else, they were just not Goths. What both Smith and Siouxsie Sioux contributed to the gothic scene was the archetypal cliché Gothic image but image and a dark album does not make a Goth - it's much more. Then again, so much of these debates are down to personal opinion. Way back when, If I told most of my gothic friends that I was going to see the Cure, they'd look at me as if I had said that I was going to a Kim Wilde concert - they were not widely accepted as a Goth group in many circles, being seen as a pop group. Robert Smith himself has often said that by the Goths/alternative fans, they were viewed as pop while the mainstream though that they were some strange Goth cult. But I do understand your point as both groups played an important part in the post punk driving force and were part of the scene. And you've got the Death Cult and SDC but what about the Cult?

Beyond "She Sells Sanctuary's" splindly goth guitar lines and a few other items of note from their earliest days, The Cult, unlike its earlier incarnations, was in many ways a straightforward hard rock band. I mean, if you're really insistent that they be included, I guess we can add them, but personally I think listing SDC and Death Cult pretty much covers the goth phases of Ian Astbury and Co. WesleyDodds 03:45, 26 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Removed HIM from the list, due to the overall genre debate on their page. There are a few lines that bands being listed on here need to avoid crossing - for example, Nick Cave has a very gothic tone to his songwriting, but that doesn't mean the Bad Seeds are a goth rock band (not certain that Cave's other project, the Birthday Party, classifies either). The Cure and the Banshees have gone through goth rock phases in their evolution as bands, but does that mean they classify as goth rock now? Perhaps. Burnage13 02:40, 8 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I removed HIM, Jack Off Jill and Ego Likeness because none of them are gothic rock. Crescentia 22:59, 25 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Also, I removed Cradle Of Filth and 69 Eyes.

I have removed, yet again, Him and Jack Off Jill because both are not gothic rock bands. If you have sources that can prove that both of these bands are gothic rock then please do so, instead of stating that I am vandalizing the page. You can call yourself a goth, but that does not make every band that you listen to 'gothic rock'. Gothic rock is distinct form of music that those two bands happen to not fit into. Crescentia 04:25, 27 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I have cleaned up the list a bit tonight. People keep adding metal bands and darkwave/futurepop acts to the list. There wouldn't be a problem if people would actually read the gothic rock entry and understand what the meaning of the term is. Crescentia 05:45, 2 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Sources

There is not a single source for this article. Ideally, every single band mentioned would have a source, or be removed. This should be worked on. J Milburn 12:24, 4 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

It's a list. Citations for who is and isn't goth is a little much. WesleyDodds 05:40, 5 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Well, I'm sure we could find reliable citations for some of these artists to indicate they are a part of Gothic rock. - BalthCat 06:10, 5 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Are there any rules that say that lists are exempt from requiring sources? Many of these bands do not even have a mention of Gothic rock on their own article. J Milburn 22:44, 12 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

No, but until some one wants to go look up the citations, adding {{fact}} after them all would be tedious, and removing them ultimately unhelpful. - BalthCat 01:35, 13 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I think that citations are especially important for those italicised due to importance. - BalthCat 05:35, 24 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Right, when I find some time, I will get sources for as many of these as possible. It will take me a couple of hours, but will stop this list being as silly as it seems at the moment. J Milburn 15:34, 27 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I have removed The Cruxshadows twice. Their own Wikipedia page describes them as 'darkwave' which is NOT gothic rock. Crescentia 03:43, 27 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

You could do what I do with many other lists. Just check if the Wikipedia article mentions gothic rock. You can then provide a source on the article itself, then the band will unarguably belong here. No fuss, no muss, and keeps the list clean. --Dane ^~nya 14:04, 10 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Cindergarden

Oops, I was in the process of listening to their music on MySpace and was planning to rewrite that edit summary as some bands who do belong don't seem to have articles. (ie: Big Electric Cat) The MySpace itself says "electro / goth / trip-hop" which pretty much means it isn't Gothic rock and so that is the real reason they should be excluded from this list. (They aren't bad though...) - BalthCat 01:24, 13 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

black tape for a blue girl

They do not belong here at all. There is no way that they are gothic rock. J Milburn 15:36, 27 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Seconded. - BalthCat 22:22, 27 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The Cruxshadows

The Cruxshadows should be on this list. They are part of Goth Rock. Don't be picky and say "oh, but there electrogoth" and crap. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.113.182.77 (talk) 00:17, 14 January 2007 (UTC).[reply]

In their wikipedia page they are described as a 'darkwave' band, which means that they are not a gothic rock band. There is a difference between the two. Crescentia 03:41, 27 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

 Also, I see that you have a history of adding them every time somebody else deletes them. Please stop deleting my posts, because that is impolite. Crescentia 03:55, 27 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Nightwish and Lordi and other metal bands are not gothic rock

Somebody added both of these bands to the list and I removed them because on their Wiki pages they are described as metal bands. Since gothic rock is not metal I removed both of the mentioned bands from the list. Please do not add metal bands to the list, since they have nothing to do with gothic rock. Crescentia 20:29, 1 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I would also like to add that gothic rock is a form of post punk music which stemmed from punk itself. It has never had an association with metal. Crescentia 20:31, 1 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Semantic, trivial argument: while it's true goth has nothing to do really with heavy metal in terms of its origins and evolution, bands like the Cult did straddle the line between goth and heavy metal. WesleyDodds 01:30, 7 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The Cult contained, from the outset, members of various post-punk groups and evolved into a hard rock band with metal influences. Lordi, on the other hand, has no connection with post-punk, "positive punk" or gothic rock at all. Gothic rock bands have adopted elements of other genres and even shifted genres during their career, but that isn't a justification for adding any band with spooky or "dark" aesthetic elements to the list.--Halloween jack 20:46, 22 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Removed red linked bands

I've removed bands that have no article on Wikipedia. If a band is notable enough to be on Wikipedia, they should have a page be created, and if not, don't need to be listed. If we allow indiscriminate unverified bands to be listed here, it just screams "promotion!" and over a long period of time, will become purely a place for people to advertise... like some lists I've cleaned up... *shudder* horrible, horrible mess... --Dane ^~nya 14:10, 10 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Please don't add red linked bands. If they're notable, they should have a page. --Dane ^~nya 06:57, 26 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, I'm currently listing the red linked bands in revision 111040400 for request for article creation, so we know if any added bands from there on in are spam, or truly notable. --Dane ^~nya 09:41, 26 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

69 Eyes are not a gothic rock band

Please stop adding 69 eyes because they are not a gothic rock band. They have been deleted multiple times for this reason. They will be deleted again if added.-Crescentia

And why they are not a gothic rock band..? pff... —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Xr 1 (talk • contribs) 17:43, August 20, 2007 (UTC).

Removed more red links

Cleaned the page of red links and added a few words at the top of the article to discourage any more. In the case of the two Polish ones I added yesterday (God's Bow and Dance on Glass), I did intend to do articles for them in the near future, so I'll put them back when I have. A1octopus 12:14, 13 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Self reference and sources

This should not be a list of bands with articles on Wikipedia, as this is a self reference. Instead, it should be a list of notable gothic rock bands in general, although, I admit, removing redlinks would be advisable. Also, even if you are not going to provide references for the country of origin or the fact that a band is of this genre, there really should be references for the 'influential' bit- if the bands are influential, then someone will have written about that somewhere. J Milburn 21:26, 18 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Before the red linked bands were removed it was a huge mess. People would add bands that didn't even have a webpage so it was impossible to find out if they were gothic rock or not. There has to be a standard. Also, in my experience of editing this page, if a band doesn't have a page in Wiki they most likely aren't even gothic rock in the first place. Most of the non linked bands that people add are metal.Crescentia 14:09, 22 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Red Flag are not a gothic rock band

They are/were a synthpop band and not gothic rock. Gothic rock is guitar based music, which they are/were not. So, please stop adding them.Crescentia 19:55, 13 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

So I have noticed that bands Like Second Skin (band), Screams For Tina and Ex-Voto have been removed. I myself have added 2 of them as well. I thought this was an educated group once I saw that bands like My Chemical Romance and Slipnot have been excluded and Synth pop bands like Cruxshadows. I thought this was a pretty proper list. the above mentioned band have been around since the early 80's with the exception of Second Skin that started in the early 90's, these band have played with Chisitain Death, I saw Screams for Tina at Helter Skelter in LA in the begining, Second Skin with Shadow Project and then with sex Gang Childern, Ex-Voto with 45 Grave... all of them unforgettable tours. These bands have been listed in Mick Mercer the Hex Files: The Gothic Bible, I believe Arron's photo from Second Skin appears in it? But these bands have been in Gothic Beauty,Zillo,GOTHIC magazine (Germany),Carpe Mortum,Elegy,Brown Book,Sonic Seducer,Blue Blood, and even trendy magazines like Alternative Press with thier Gothic Issue that featured The Sisters,The Mission,Siouxsie,the Nephilim,and 2 of the above mentioned. If the main purpose of this list is set around guitar based Gothic Rock how does the Sisterhood make it's way into the list? Beacuse Andrew " I am not a Goth " Eldritch had a hand in it? All you have to do is google any of the above and you will find Bands like Second Skin dates back to the earliest Goth comps as well as Ex-Voto, Screams for Tina was on the first Real Goth Comp "the Whip" I really think you should not let your personal likes and dislike cloud history if this is to be a true list of GOTHIC bands.Others that are over looked are Usher House,Red Temple Spirits,and Love like Blood.As far as Verifiable listings the proof is there when you ignor bands that have been on Several of the more important GOTHIC lables like Cherry Red,Cleopatra,Metroplois,Apollyon,Palace of worms,Celtic Circle,Equinoxe records, and Strobelight I wonder if anyone is looking into these or just mindlessly deleting bands they either don't care for or have not heard of in their click. 67.106.241.158 18:08, 30 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Sopor Aeternus

Is the project gothic rock at all? I thought it was more of a symphonic "dark ambient" type of deal.

Today I put some more bands in the list,the is no J and i have a band called Judith is USA gothic band. Don't delete Sabrina, this is not the 80's disco. It's a usa gothic band www.sabrinamusic.com

And if you want to check gothic bands then goto the sites of the best gothic recordlabels like ressurection records,grave news and nightbreed.

I deleted all of your band inclusions for the following reasons- 1. Some of the bands did not have a Wiki link. To be included a band must have a substantial Wiki link. If it has no Wiki link it gets deleted because that keeps the list clean. The top of the article says that all entries need a good Wiki link. 2. Many of your entries were Wiki links of things other than bands. Two Witches was a Wiki link to a drawing of two witches rather than that of the band. 3. A few were not gothic rock. Please be more careful the next time you add bands.Crescentia 22:56, 15 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]