Talk:List of fugitives from justice who disappeared

Disappeared v. fugitive

@Davidgoodheart: There seems to either be a confusion between the two or an attempt to purposely make the two interchangeable, which is not the case. Fugitive criminals are not disappeared; they are just in hiding. Law enforcement may have information on where they could possibly be (usually based on tips, connections, or information they've gathered in their cases). When someone is considered "disappeared", that's because law enforcement believes the person may have been a victim of either foul play (i.e. kidnapped and killed by someone) or because they absolutely don't have any information about the person. But I have yet to find a source that uses both "fugitive" and "disappeared" interchangeably. I don't know most of the criminals in this list so I cannot comment on them, but Osama bin Laden should definitely not be here. He was a fugitive, and U.S. authorities had spotty information on his whereabouts for years. I don't think there was a source that ever declared him as "disappeared". This list may possibly have to be amended completely. MX (✉ • ✎) 14:17, 16 May 2019 (UTC)

@MX: Hi, as far as I know being in hiding is a disappearance and here is a source saying that a fugitive who you have removed went into hiding 'The narco of narcos' Rafael Caro Quintero now on Top 10 Most Wanted list. Both of the fugitives who I added are wanted by the police. If the person is wanted by the police that means that their whereabouts is unknown which means that they are probably hiding. The other person who I added is currently wanted by the police. You may be right, but I will have to study this further. Davidgoodheart (talk) 20:43, 16 May 2019 (UTC)

Thanks for the response, Davidgoodheart. I'm pinging Akld guy to this discussion too. Before I jump into the terminology, I'd like for you to explain what you mean by "disappeared" and how it differentiates from someone in "hiding" or someone who's a "fugitive". Because in my experience, someone who's disappeared is someone who ceases to exist, or who can no longer be found (meaning impossible to be found; in theory, fugitives are still technically "searchable"). I've seen investigators used "disappeared" when they suspect fugitives were victims of foul play (i.e. kidnapped and killed), but I've never seen this term used for fugitives. Now, a fugitive who cannot be found by the police still has contact with people who work closely with them. Nemesio Oseguera Cervantes has contacts with his immediate inner circle. And Caro Quintero too (in fact, he was interviewed after being released). I don't see how they are "disappeared". They are simply fugitives of justice (and obviously most fugitives are in hiding, but they aren't "disappeared"). MX (✉ • ✎) 21:25, 16 May 2019 (UTC)

A brief history. I created this article about a year ago from fugitive entries that had been deleted from List of people who disappeared mysteriously. At that time, some editors had taken the view that fugitives did not belong in the list and they were deleting them. The edit summary I used was, "Setting up article because the narrowing of criteria at List of people who disappeared mysteriously has resulted in the deletion of many entries." I and others rescued the deleted entries and put them into this article. Questions then arose about whether the name was appropriate. Is a fugitive "disappeared" by definition? If "disappeared" was dropped from the name, leaving just List of fugitives from justice, wouldn't that signify only those currently on the run, ruling out historical cases from hundreds of years ago? That would mean creating another article for those old cases. It would also mean creating another article for those who were captured after being on the run, because they no longer are fugitives. In the end, it was simpler to keep the current name. Added to the bottom of the list is a section for those who had at one time been fugitives, but were captured. It seems to me that you're arguing semantics without considering the effect on readers. In the broadest sense, readers would expect to find in this article, as currently named:

• a list of those who are currently fugitives and presumed to be still alive within a normal life span
• a list of historical cases of fugitives who cannot still be alive, but who disappeared at some stage and were never captured
• a list of fugitives who were captured

I think the current name encompasses all the likely combinations. Deleting entries simply because you think fugitives aren't disappeared is not the solution. Akld guy (talk) 22:36, 16 May 2019 (UTC)

@Akld guy: The only problem is the title is misleading and can be confusing to readers. Fugitive is not the same as disappeared; this isn't about "semantics" only (the FBI has a specific page titled "Kidnapping and missing persons", and another one for "Fugitives". "Disappeared" person falls more under the former). Fugitive criminals like Nemesio Oseguera Cervantes (article I created and deleted from the list) continue to have contact with their associates while being on the run. That doesn't fit the description of a "disappeared" person (sounds more like a fugitive). If we have to create more list articles with fugitives by century, then so be it. Or we could probably narrow down the list a bit more and do fugitives by country. I'm open to those possibilities. MX (✉ • ✎) 03:16, 17 May 2019 (UTC)

@Akld guy: Terrific! Like I said if they are wanted by the police their whereabouts is unknown, so this means they disappeared. What I said made sense after all. Thank you Akld guy for seeing it this way. Davidgoodheart (talk) 23:57, 16 May 2019 (UTC)

• @Davidgoodheart: That's not necessarily true. Police have tips on many of the fugitive's whereabouts, even though they might not know their exact locations. Nemesio is alleged to be in the Mexican states of Jalisco, Michoacán, Nayarit, and/or Colima (see cited sources in the article), and has been nearly captured a few times. Not to mention he reportedly continues to run a large drug empire. That doesn't sound like a "disappeared" person. That sounds like a fugitive. "Disappeared" would be something like this. MX (✉ • ✎) 03:16, 17 May 2019 (UTC)
• @Linguist111: Hello. You might want to take a look at this discussion before adding more material to this article. There are a few things that need to be clarified before we make an exhaustive list of fugitive criminals. Regards, MX (✉ • ✎) 19:01, 29 May 2019 (UTC)

  @MX: Hello, I've been adding these entries because David asked me to on my talk page. If you want to remove them, that's fine by me. Regards, Linguist111^{my talk page} 19:42, 29 May 2019 (UTC)

• @Linguist111: Thanks for the reply. I wouldn't like to start an edit war with him or anyone else (courtesy ping to Davidgoodheart), so I tried asking for clarification after I deleted some material. I like the idea of the list, but the title is misleading/unclear. MX (✉ • ✎) 19:50, 29 May 2019 (UTC)

@MX: While this topic (which you started) is under discussion, please do not delete entries without seeking consensus for each one here. Akld guy (talk) 20:39, 29 May 2019 (UTC)

I haven't since I did my first post here. MX (✉ • ✎) 20:42, 29 May 2019 (UTC)

Now that I think about it, nothing should be added either (to prevent a "well, the list is clearly big and "notable" now, so let's keep it" argument). MX (✉ • ✎) 20:44, 29 May 2019 (UTC)

There has been no consensus to change or restrict the existing criteria, so entries can be added on the basis of the current name. Akld guy (talk) 20:58, 29 May 2019 (UTC)

@Akld guy: There also has been no answer to my concerns above. Ignoring other users is not a way to seek consensus. Nor is this a voting contest either. "Disappeared" does not apply for most criminals here, and that's what I'm trying to get across. MX (✉ • ✎) 14:13, 30 May 2019 (UTC)

Should unidentified individuals (ie: Jack the Ripper or D. B. Cooper) be included?

I noticed Jack The Ripper and D.B Cooper are listed as a fugitives who disappeared. However, as they were never positively identified, they seem to stick out like sore thumbs compared to the rest on the list. I won't delete them, but I thought I would address this issue at the very least. TRUEandHONESTuser (talk) 16:08, 1 March 2020 (UTC)

Proposal

What if unidentified individuals on this list had their own section? You know, like how there's the "Fugitives from justice who are no longer sought" section. I think it would be a great idea! It could be called "Unidentified Fugitives" or something along those lines. If anyone likes my proposal, please let me know. Thank you! --TRUEandHONESTuser (talk) 13:21, 17 March 2020 (UTC)

@TRUEandHONESTuser: A section like that may be way too short because I don't think that there are very many of those. Also just curious, do you know where Akld Guy the editor who creator this article is? He has made ANY edits for a while now. Davidgoodheart (talk) 23:43, 15 July 2020 (UTC)

@Davidgoodheart: I see. To answer your question, I have not seen any activity from Akld Guy in a while myself. --TRUEandHONESTuser (talk) 12:25, 2 September 2020 (UTC)

Country section

When listing each fugitives country: are we listing the country they were born in or the country they are a fugitive from? For example: Alexis Flores and Bhadreshkumar Chetanbhai Patel currently have the United States list as their country - which is the country they committed the crime in and is the country they are wanted in. However, Flores is from Honduras and Patel is from India. So what country should be listed in this article? Inexpiable (talk) 22:31, 14 October 2020 (UTC)

Given the language used in the description, specifically, "people who disappeared or evaded capture while being sought by law enforcement agencies", I would think it most appropriate to reference the country seeking apprehension Kilgoresparrot (talk) 08:57, 6 April 2021 (UTC)

phantom murders

this really should not be here. A DNA contamination of several crime sites is neither a fugitive nor a disappeared criminal.

WHAT?

Why was this page re-combined. The page is now over 600,000 bytes! I noticed there was a deletion nomination, but now this article needs to be split AGAIN! I really hope somebody sees this because half of these requests end up getting ignored. Blubabluba9990 (talk) (contribs) 19:48, 4 August 2021 (UTC)

It takes forever for this article to even load! But now it can't be split again since apparently "they are all fugitives". Blubabluba9990 (talk) (contribs) 19:56, 4 August 2021 (UTC)

@Blubabluba9990: I figured why let that section go to waste. It should also increase the article's views as well. And yes "they are all fugitives" and that's why it should remain. Davidgoodheart (talk) 20:19, 4 August 2021 (UTC)

@Blubabluba9990 It looks like someone is acting in good behavior. You've been going all over Wikipedia destroying articles in the name of shrinking them. Stop it. Ergzay (talk) 15:22, 16 October 2021 (UTC)

Graziano Mesina

Graziano Mesina was arrested in december 2021 in Desulo, Sardinia. You might want to remove the entry. Kind Regards. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.56.103.24 (talk) 18:01, 2 January 2022 (UTC)

Alahverdian

Why is the entry still in the table? I see it was heavily edited after his arrest, but shouldn't it be removed?--Ymblanter (talk) 17:09, 15 January 2022 (UTC)

Remove Hong Kong political activists from the list

The question I pose is simple: Should the Hong Kong political activists wanted in Hong Kong (Sunny Cheung and Ted Hui) be removed from the list?

I argue that they should be removed. This list is mostly murderers, fraudsters, and terrorists, and it seems odd that these two people have been added, since the crimes they are accused of in Hong Kong are actually rather mild. If they are added, then it makes sense that hundreds of other political asylum-seekers (not just those pertaining to China, but to Russia, etc. as well) would also be added to the list. I feel that this detracts from what the focus of this list is, which is listing notorious criminals, not political refugees.

NateNate60 (talk) 04:03, 12 April 2022 (UTC)

1950's

Were there just no fugitives who escaped during this decade...? Across the whole earth? EmilySarah99 (talk) 05:59, 27 October 2022 (UTC)

1880's

I think Jack the Ripper should be listed here, unless someone can explain why not. Kidsrock91 (talk) 17:51, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

• @Kidsrock91: Because a fugitive is someone who has escaped. Never getting identified and caught is not the same thing as escaping. —Kaliforniyka^Hi! 18:34, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

  Thanks Kidsrock91 (talk) 16:48, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

Five Confederate prisoners of war

The list contains five prisoners of war who escaped during the aftermath of a train wreck. Are POWs actually "fugitives from justice"? Joyous! Noise! 17:05, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

Mahmoud Mahmoud Atta

I removed his name because sources in his main article say that he was released from Israeli prison. His whereabouts seem to be unknown, but it's not like he's fleeing from justice, at least for this crime. Joyous! Noise! 21:22, 28 April 2024 (UTC) .