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Crannogs

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Why are these being excluded? Wouldn't it be better to include them, but to note that they are crannogs? Brewphilip 19:55, 14 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It may well be. It probably depends on how many crannogs there are. If the are many tens of them they would probably be better off as a separate list (as this list is separate from List of islands of Scotland). I'd suggest starting a separate section for them that can be made into its own list as required. I doubt that many have their own articles, so I suggest avoiding red-linking them all at this stage. Ben MacDui (Talk) 07:40, 15 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I wish I knew how many crannogs there are (even those that are still visible above the water!), but who other than "those in the know" would be aware when seeing them that they were crannogs? I think they should be placed within this list and (if need be) a separate list of them can be set up. Alternatively if the decision is to go with a separate list, it should be clearly shown where any loch already listed also contains crannogs!

The crannogs that I am aware of are Keppinch (or 'The Kitchen') on Loch Lomond; the small crannog at the western end of Loch Earn (near Edinample Castle) and (possibly) Neish Island at the eastern end; there are also a few on Loch Awe - about 20 according to the Kilmartin Monuments site [1] (the Kilmartin Monuments site also mentions crannogs on Lochs Ederline and Leathan! [2]). Brewphilip 09:49, 16 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

You can find crannog sites by registering to use the Canmore database. 95 in Argyll and Bute alone! Lurker (said · done) 10:55, 16 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Islands on Loch Lomond

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LochLomond.net [3] lists the following islands on Loch Lomond:

Aber Isle
Bucinch
Ceardach
Clairinsh
Creinch
Eilan Deargannan
Ellanderroch
Fraoch Eilean
Inchcailloch
Inchconnachan
Inchcruin
Inchfad
Inchgalbraith
Inchlonaig
Inchmoan
Inchmurrin
Inchtavannach
Inveruglas Isle
Island I Vow
The Ross Islands
Tarbet Isle
Torrinch
Wallace's Isle

I'm not sure if they fit in to your criteria (although I don't believe any of those in the list are crannogs). Brewphilip 20:45, 14 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Absolutely. Please add any missing ones, plus the reference. Drop me a note if you need any assistance with this. Ben MacDui (Talk) 07:45, 15 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I have added the missing islands, but don't know how the references are added so will leave that up to someone else! Brewphilip 09:32, 16 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Dow's list includes - Eilean Vow and Inchvannich. Also I suspect "Fraoch Eilean" is better than the "Fraoch" you see on some lists. --MacRusgail 13:21, 19 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Eilean Vow and Eilean I Vow are the same island - I have seen both variations mentioned, but the latter is the one listed on the OS map (NN331127). However I haven't seen Inchvannich listed - so it is either meant to be Inchtavannach or it is one of the unnamed islands (at least on the OS map) on the loch! Brewphilip 10:39, 20 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Dow lists it as "Monks' Island" - presumably this is either, Innis Mhanaich, or "Innis Taigh Mhanaich" (Monastery/Monkhouse Island). --MacRusgail 10:56, 20 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
According to wiki, Inchtavannach is the island of the monk's house from the Gaelic Innis Tigh a' Mhanaich - so I guess this is the island refered to by Dow! Out of curiosity, are you taking your information from a book or website? Either way a reference would be nice! Brewphilip 11:43, 20 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I know enough Gàidhlig to work out what it is, especially when a translation is also presented. By the way, the spelling "tigh" is archaic. "Taigh" is the proper spelling. --MacRusgail 16:50, 25 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry mate I didn't mean to imply that you don't know Gaelic... in fact its obvious that you know a lot more than I do! Anyway, if you think wiki is wrong with the Gaelic version of Inchtavannach maybe you should correct it! Brewphilip 16:27, 30 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
No problem. "Tigh" is one of those words whose spelling has been changed a few decades ago, just because according to spelling rules it should be pronounced "chee", but is actually pronounced "tie". I don't know if the OS has followed suite, their policy towards Gaidhlig has been uneven in recent years. --MacRusgail 19:25, 30 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

References

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I have added a references section to the end of the page, so you can put them in to the text now and they will be automatically listed in that section. I've also made a photo gallery of the main lochs listed, as far as possible. With regard to crannogs perhaps they could be better listed on the existing article about Crannogs? Richard Harvey 10:22, 16 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

With well over a hundred known or suspected crannog sites in Scotland, we's defintely need a separate article. Lurker (said · done) 11:40, 19 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I agree that a list of crannogs should be created separately, but I still think this list should mention the existing of crannogs on those lochs already listed! Brewphilip 11:20, 30 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The sites of suspected crannogs are highly controversial... some present ambiguous archaeological evidence, particularly if they are inland (as many of them now are - there's a possible two or three in drained (formerly marshy) areas of Edinburgh for example.) But such a list would be good. --MacRusgail 19:27, 30 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Images

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I think as many of the images should be linked to the text as possible, to brighten up the list, rather than being put into a gallery at the end. Also I think the image of Inchmahome Priory is relevant as it is a notable institution on a freshwater island. --MacRusgail 12:29, 17 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

To make the page work with images scattered through the text then it it would need to be taken out of a listing format and redone in a prose style. That would defeat the objective of the article which as it title states is a 'List of Freshwater Islands'. Richard Harvey 13:42, 17 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
It's done in other articles e.g. Scottish place names in other countries, List of Scottish Islands, so I think it would be worthwhile doing here. It certainly makes the list a bit less dry and easier on the eye. --MacRusgail 14:15, 17 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I don't have a problem with the photos being in a gallery at the end of the article, but I think as this is a list of freshwater islands then it would be better if the photos actually showed at least one island, not just the water they can be found on! Brewphilip 20:53, 17 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Seven of the images in the gallery show islands on them. The wikimedia commons link I included when I created the gallery gives access to other images, for those wishing to look at them. The article:- Scottish place names in other countries has images down the page and looks rather messy. The article:- [List of Scottish Islands]] which has images down the section where images are listed in a table format does look much better. If this article could be done in table format then I would agree that the images should be placed down the side of the table, but not in its current format. Richard Harvey 21:14, 17 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Can I suggest a compromise? Those that show islands can be put amongst the text, and those that don't can be put in the gallery. I'm not a great fan of galleries (wikipedia variety). As Richard says, many of them do show islands. I also think the picture of Inchmahome Priory is important as it doesn't show any water, but is quite definitely on an island. --MacRusgail 13:40, 18 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The picture of Inchmahome Priory would have been more relevant here instead of the picture of the Lake of Menteith looking towards Port or Menteith. That would then bring the number of images showing islands up to 8, although there are 16 images in total and that in my opinion isn't a high enough percentage when the point of this article is the islands! Brewphilip 09:06, 19 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I agree that the Lake of Mentieth image is not good, but that was all I could locate in the Wikimedia listings. With regard to having loads of images. Perhaps my conception of the articles title is different to others. With the title being that of a 'List' of Freshwater island I assumed that it was designed to act as a quick reference list of articles that would then be accessed, via a wiki-link, to get the information from the article itself, rathr than repeating the information in both places. For example the Inchmahome Priory image is shown on the Inchmahome Priory article. Having had a look at the List of islands of Scotland article then I agree that more images would be suitable if the same article format was used. Laying out text etc is not really my forte. However photo's are and I do enjoy getting out to normally inaccessible places to take as good a photo as possible. If the locations of the various freshwater island were shown I could sort out some time to take a driving trip up into Scotland to get round them. Richard Harvey 12:21, 19 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Loch Tay

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Apart from crannogs, I have counted at least 4 islands on this loch and yet only one seems to be named - Isle of Spar (OS Ref. NN773451). The other islands can be found at OS Refs. NN766453 (with the remains of a castle/manor house); NN588334; and the largest at NN584333! Does anyone know the names of these other islands? Brewphilip13:03 23 October

Collaboration

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This article will need significant changes and improvements if it is to be on an equal footing with some of the other major lists. Ideally we could use the general outline of List of Scottish islands, but the problem with the freshwater islands is that although very numerous, they are mostly very small. Ben MacDui 18:29, 1 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I doubt any sizeable islands exist in mainland lochs/rivers that have not appeared on this list as these areas are relatively well-trodden. However the recently "discovered" existence of Eilean Mòr in Loch Langavat draws attention to the fact that there are clearly numerous lochs in Eilean Siar with islands that don't yet appear here and it is not out of the question a few sizeable islands remain to be found. There follows a simple checklist. Ben MacDui 13:45, 22 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Checklist for possible FLC

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  • Add red-linked islands
  • Alt text
  • Check OS links

Ben MacDui 14:42, 23 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Islands in Shetland

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Very interesting - well done all!

I was skimming this and was surprised to see only a small handful of entries for Shetland - I distinctly remember driving past one at Brindister just yesterday and noticing it! It has the residue of fortifications, & may be a crannog, or just a natural island which was fortified and then allowed to decay. It's on the Canmore database here, which is ambivalent on the point.

Other examples... I've gone through the whole South Mainland 1:50,000 map, and a portion of another sheet, and found about two dozen so far, all unnamed. I wouldn't be at all surprised at 1-200 in total. Those which are in Canmore:

  • Loch of Brow - possibly connected to the shore. "situated on a small island which is connected to the shore by a passage of stepping-stones and a roughly laid causeway (...) now 2ft beneath water level" - Canmore.
  • Burga Water (out towards Sandness) - possibly as many as four, two on Canmore: 1; 2 - and another in an unnamed loch just to the SE.

There's also the question of whether or not the Broch of Clickimin - now connected by a causeway - counts as an island or not. Even if it doesn't, there is a small island in the loch just to the NE of it which probably should... Shimgray | talk | 18:08, 2 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

You are quite right that there are numerous islands not on the list. There are two notes of relevance in the article 's subsection:

  • "Crannógs are excluded as they are both artificial and very numerous. There are at least 600 of these small prehistoric structures in Scotland."
  • "There is a significant difference between the OS treatment of freshwater and offshore islands. See for example Loch Snigiscleit at grid reference NF802254. If the islands here were offshore it is virtually certain that there would be three substantial named islands and probably half a dozen smaller ones. There are several examples - Loch Druidibeag has two named islands and about a dozen un-named. It is not clear whether this because the OS only chose to list a few larger ones and those identified by RCAHMS, or if for some reason the local Gaels did not give names to smaller islands in lochs. The latter is unlikely although these islands offer much less of threat to fishermen and thus there is less of an imperative to be aware of them."

The reference to Loch of Brindister is interesting in that both issues emerge. On balance it sounds to me like a natural island with ruins on it, although as you suggest it is not clear. However even RCAHMS don't provide a name. There may be a local one for some of the examples e.g. "Broch of Loch of Brow" or similar, but these might be hard to find a reliable source for. Without a name for the island it is hard to see how they can be included. I suppose "un-named dun" could be added, although the list need only include notable islands, and (especially given the comprehensive OS coverage) a geographical feature that does not have a name might not be genuinely notable - in our era at least.

Re Broch of Clickimin - I think you are probably right - assuming we can reasonably infer that the name refers to both the island and is ruins. Ben MacDui 11:59, 4 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sceptical about excluding crannogs. We don't know where they all are, nor which ones they all are. But most are islands.--MacRusgail (talk) 20:11, 4 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
There are so many of them they really merit their own list - especially as there are few that might be considered larger or more notable than the others. The lack of names is also a problem and I think it is better to exclude those that are clearly artificial. The list is unlikely ever to be completed if they are included. Ben MacDui 09:43, 5 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Mmm. Reading over the article, it does seem as though we've an implicit "named islands only" rule as well as the explicit "natural islands only" one; however, the only time we discuss the distinction between named and unnamed in the main text is where we talk about the Outer Hebrides, and that sentence implies everywhere else has very few islands and those are predominantly named. Perhaps it would be best to explain the focus up front in the lead, and adjust the wording accordingly, to avoid this sort of confusion? Shimgray | talk | 20:47, 4 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I agree the text could do with some improvement and both the crannog and naming issue might well be better in the lead. Ben MacDui 09:43, 5 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Now done... Ben MacDui 17:04, 10 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
As I say, not even the archaeologists know which are crannogs... And just to confuse matters even more, a lot of crannogs may have used some kind of natural island as their base. Not easy at all. I've no problem with including crannogs. Most are, however, small.--MacRusgail (talk) 18:08, 7 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It is tricky. On the one hand a crannog is defined as being artificial, on the other various clearly natural islands (e.g. The Burrian on Rousay) are identified by RCAHMS as crannogs - and included in this list too. I suspect there are very few crannogs that are both purely artificial and that have a name, so in practice there may be little or no difference between the two approaches. Ben MacDui 17:19, 10 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I have now listed all the crannogs that have articles, or those that I know are already red-linked at List of islands of Scotland (five all told). Ben MacDui 12:29, 25 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
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