Talk:List of foreign nationals detained in North Korea

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Matthew Miller

Responding to a revert: Although North Korean media initially claimed that Miller shredded his passport and requested asylum, during his hearing the prosecutors reversed themselves. They now say that the asylum bid was a ruse, and that Miller's real intention was to commit 'hostile acts', which might include attempting to report on the country's human rights situation.TheBlueCanoe 00:50, 22 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Miller was not arrested for planning "hostile acts" since the authorities claimed to have learned of them after his arrest. According to every account the only reason he was arrested was for causing some sort of ruckus at the airport. I purposely titled the last column of the table as "Likely reason for detention" and not "Criminal charge" because the official story is usually non-nonsensical, non-existent, or unspecific. – Zntrip 03:36, 22 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

You're differentiating between the initial reason for detention and the reason for ongoing detention. But how do you expect readers to know that? The table does not list "initial cause for detention." It's just "likely cause." No one--not even the nonsensical North Korean authorities--believe this guy was seeking political asylum.

I'm not totally inflexible on this, but stating that he was seeking asylum in North Korea is patently misleading. If you have alternative suggestions I'm open to hear them. TheBlueCanoe 15:01, 11 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I think readers would better be served by a table that lists what prompted an individual to get arrested rather than what the individual was charged with subsequently because usually people are held on unspecific or undisclosed charges. I'd be happy to rename the last column "Initial cause for detention" or something along those lines. With regard to Miller, would you be open to "Unruly behavior upon entering North Korea"? – Zntrip 17:25, 11 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Your "Unruly behavior" proposal does seem like an improvement. Whatever his actual motives, there does seem to be agreement that he did something quite deliberate to get arrested. Shall I let you make the change?TheBlueCanoe 03:38, 30 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Sounds great. I'll go ahead an make an edit. – Zntrip 02:50, 31 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I'm coming late to this, but perhaps a better way to say it what is cited on Millers page. It reads "Acts hostile to the DPRK while entering...under the guise of a tourist."^[1]

"Unruly behavior" is kind of vague and not really a "legal" type term. Just my opinion.--- ARTEST4ECHO ^(talk) 19:50, 31 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

^ Fifield, Anna (14 September 2014). "North Korea sentences American Matthew Miller to 6 years of hard labor". Washington Post. Retrieved 14 September 2014.

Likely reason for detention

For the "likely reason for detention" column, I'm not sure that it is sensible to simply repeat what North Korean authorities allege verbatim. Saying that someone was detained for "committing a crime" or "hostile acts" is meaningless and unspecific. We are able to use our judgment as editors and give concise summaries without resorting to quotes. – Zntrip 02:39, 12 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The official reason might be "nonsensical, non-existent, or unspecific", but equally media commentary might be speculative and biased. And editor's judgement is only a personal opinion. In some cases the "likely reason" is highly debatable.--Jack Upland (talk) 07:21, 13 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

A lot of media commentary has suggested that North Korea was taking American hostages, but this is clearly false, given that in late 2014 every US prisoner held at that time was released. It would make more sense to note the regime's pronouncements rather than parroting grandiose prognostications that are rinsed out in the news cycle.--Jack Upland (talk) 20:57, 17 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

And again North Korea has released all American prisoners...--Jack Upland (talk) 13:16, 16 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Americans or US citizens?

Please correct either the lemma or the text. --141.87.216.106 (talk) 08:48, 23 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Worthwhile? POV?

I'm not sure this page is worthwhile. When it was created in 2014 there was a view that North Korea was collecting American prisoners, and there was speculation that they were going to be used as bargaining chips. This has proved false. The exclusion of non-Americans such as Australian John Short (missionary) seems arbitrary.--Jack Upland (talk) 06:53, 13 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

In addition, there are many more Americans detained by other countries.--Jack Upland (talk) 08:30, 22 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The POV tag I added was removed without a reasonable explanation. This clearly was not "drive-by tagging". It doesn't appear the editors who support this page can justify it coherently.--Jack Upland (talk) 03:32, 18 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

You might not find the explanation to be reasonable, but that's irrelevant. It's not in line with established practice to keep the {{POV}} template on an article without an active discussion about POV issues on the talk page. What's more, the thread you started when you added the template was focused on scope of the article, rather than any specific POV problem.

Lastly, you are free to improve the article yourself if you feel so strongly. Or AFD it if you think it's inappropriate. Parsecboy (talk) 19:33, 18 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

It is a POV problem. The article implies that the DPRK has a specific policy of detaining Americans, or even is collecting hostages. This is not a neutral interpretation of the facts. The only useful purpose of this article is to establish that this idea is false, because there is currently only two Americans in detention, who will probably soon be released.--Jack Upland (talk) 19:39, 19 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Jack, I'm not sure how the existence of a list implies anything about the policies of the DPRK. Short of zapping the article, is there any other change that would address your concerns? Maybe like renaming to "List of foreign nationals detained by North Korea"? TheBlueCanoe 19:07, 22 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I think it would be better to have a list of all foreigners detained.--Jack Upland (talk) 21:40, 22 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I'm on board with that proposal. How do we go about changing the name of the page? Does it require a more formal process, or should we just move it (barring any objections, of course)? TheBlueCanoe 22:59, 23 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Apparently a formal move request only needs to be initiated if there is reason to believe the proposed move would be contested. So, does anyone oppose the proposal to move this to List of foreign nationals detained in North Korea? Or are there alternate suggestions for a title?TheBlueCanoe 15:29, 26 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Page has been moved. Now to begin the task of expanding the list accordingly...TheBlueCanoe 01:38, 20 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Hyeon Soo Lim qualifies.--Jack Upland (talk) 03:53, 20 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

See [1]. According to this, "Six foreigners, including Kim and three South Koreans, are known to be detained in the North." It also says, "North Korea...has used detained Americans in the past to extract high-profile visits from the United States", which refers to the theory I mentioned above. There is a theory (advanced in the media) that American detainees are treated differently from others. That's why I objected to this list. No one thinks North Korea is trying to wring concessions from Australia or Canada, so they are excluded from consideration. It is an improvement for this article that it no longer excluded non-US citizens. But we don't have a list of foreigners detained in Thailand.--Jack Upland (talk) 10:44, 29 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Any good leads on how we could get a full accounting of Japanese and South Koreans detained in North Korea? I realize a full historical record will be hard to come by, but we might be able to find something reflecting the current situation. TheBlueCanoe 13:45, 30 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Not sure. Apparently Rupert Wingfield-Hayes would also qualify.--Jack Upland (talk) 07:01, 9 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

This might help with South Koreans: [2].--Jack Upland (talk) 08:36, 15 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

More information on Kim

See this.--Jack Upland (talk) 09:39, 23 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

South Koreans?

Are they holding no known South Koreans? Tom W (talk) 18:35, 23 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

See the link I provided above.--Jack Upland (talk) 20:06, 23 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The list of Koreans that has been added since contained an error: A Korean (김정욱) was listed twice with two different Romanizations. The difference in "date of detention" in that list was the difference from his real detention (disappearance from the public/no contact to friends etc.) and the date NK made his detention public.

--Helmut w.k. (talk) 03:23, 23 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I assume you are saying that Choi Chun Kil is Ko Hyon Chol? This indicates that the journalist at NK News can't speak Korean, which possibly explains her using North Korean forms of the names (without hyphenation). I will change this after confirmation.--Jack Upland (talk) 09:34, 23 March 2018 (UTC) Sorry, I just saw your edit to the page. Thanks for your correction.--Jack Upland (talk) 21:54, 23 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Sandra Suh

I have corrected the details for Sandra Suh, which had somehow been mixed up with those of Hyeon Soo Lim. But as Suh was apparently not detained but deported, does she really belong in this list anyway?--Muzilon (talk) 10:17, 20 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Well, she was detained, and then deported immediately. It depends how you define detained for the purposes of this list. As I commented above, Rupert Wingfield-Hayes could also qualify because he was also detained and immediately deported. Overall, this list is problematic as the grounds of inclusion or exclusion are arbitrary.--Jack Upland (talk) 11:43, 20 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Release of the three US citizens?

The media is reporting that the three Korean-Americans have been released. If this is true, their biographies will need updating.--Muzilon (talk) 00:00, 3 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

No, the report says they have been "released" from a labour camp. However, it sounds like they are still being detained by the North Korean government. But now in a hotel, and release is imminent.[3]--Jack Upland (talk) 08:50, 3 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Reason for detention

I have removed the "likely" from the "reason for detention" header. Quotations from North Korea are not necessarily likely. In fact, many learned commentators consider North Korea's reasons to be unlikely. But we can agree they are reasons, even if they are only purported reasons or speculated reasons.--Jack Upland (talk) 08:57, 17 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Warmbier

The fact that Warmbier died after being released is not a reason for his detention. Is it possible to make this a footnote or locate it somewhere else.--Jack Upland (talk) 09:01, 17 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I've shifted that sentence to an endnote.--Muzilon (talk) 09:22, 17 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks.--Jack Upland (talk) 09:25, 17 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Russian and South Korean fishermen detained

I'm not sure how to fit this into the tables.[4]--Jack Upland (talk) 06:04, 28 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Travis King

Is it too soon to include Travis King as we don't know for sure he's detained yet? Jack Upland (talk) 03:42, 20 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Since the lead says the list excludes military defectors (assuming that is how he should be classified), should he be included here at all? Muzilon (talk) 07:18, 23 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I missed that. I think the introduction excludes him. I've removed the entry. We can revisit this if the information changes.--Jack Upland (talk) 02:49, 24 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Not officially categorized as a military defector as of now, I believe we should include him in the list until it's confirmed that he did indeed defect U2You Too (talk) 15:32, 26 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Well, I don't agree. He was clearly on active military duty.--Jack Upland (talk) 04:44, 27 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

There being no response, I have removed him from the list.--Jack Upland (talk) 04:34, 28 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

There seems to be an edit war as to whether King should be included here or not. At any rate, I have added the date he was expelled from N. Korea. Muzilon (talk) 01:15, 22 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure what to do about this. King keeps on being added in despite what it says in the introduction. Should I just let it be?--Jack Upland (talk) 03:46, 22 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I've bitten the bullet and deleted King from the table again, although I have let his name remain in the See Also section. As he has now been formally charged with desertion by the US military, this seems to confirm that he was deemed to be on "active military duty" and should therefore be excluded from this list under the criteria specified in the lead. I suppose this can go to WP:DR if the same IP editor keeps inserting King's name in the main table. Muzilon (talk) 03:57, 22 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks.--Jack Upland (talk) 02:19, 24 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

[WP_09142014-1] Fifield, Anna (14 September 2014). "North Korea sentences American Matthew Miller to 6 years of hard labor". Washington Post. Retrieved 14 September 2014.

[1]