Talk:List of fictional tricksters

"Dr Suess" tag

what about cat in the hat or fox in socks? cat in the had show some shapeshifting abilities as does fox in socks by doing things that should be impossible or having little cats in hi hat —Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.139.213.3 (talk) 20:09, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

"Non-referenced and poorly defined list" tag

This list originally developed within the trickster article. Like many in-article lists, it soon became problematic. Many stopping by the article added their favorite "trickster" and eventually the list began to dominate the article. It was discussed on the talk page and my proposed solution was to create a separate page for the list. I did that and someone (rightly) added the tag to it, suggesting the need for better definition. So I have added a reference, with some characteristics of tricksters. Hopefully the list may prove interesting and illuminating for some. However, I have no particular brief as to whether the list should live or die. If it remains, there should be some scrutiny as to whether the tricksters listed meet several of the six traits. I've removed the tag. See what you think. Sunray 07:49, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

I've started going through the list, eliminating names that do not seem to meet the traits of a trickster (e.g., Mary Poppins, Danny Ocean). Several others seem doubtful, mostly cartoon figures like Daffy Duck, the Pink Panther, the Road Runner and Woody Woodpecker. All these characters engage in deception, but is there evidence of other trickster traits, such as shape-shifting? Thoughts? Sunray 16:24, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

Well, Daffy did shapeshift into a plane in The Wise Quacking Duck and A Corny Concerto. He has aloso proven to be very good at disguises several times. I don't know if it adds to he qualification as ambiguous bugt he somehow managed to procreate with a decoy in A Coy Decoy--142.117.146.229 (talk) 21:35, 30 November 2020 (UTC)

The list has been seriously pruned. I used the traits listed and looked for sources. I've added some citations, particularly where there seemed to be some doubt. For example, I found no evidence for Roadrunner, but Wile E. Coyote is related to the Old Man Coyote trickster of Native American lore (and yes, his getting squashed by a boulder and then appearing in the next scene opening his latest package from the Acme Corporation qualifies as shape shifting. Sunray 16:45, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Fictional?

Some of the tricksters, like Eris and Loki, seem to be deities in particular religions (ones that may not have many adherents these days, though). While I don't believe in Eris or in Loki, it doesn't seem correct to call them "fictional". Whether a book is fictional is a matter of genre rather than of the book's truth. Dishonest Soviet "history" books would nonetheless be correctly classified as non-fiction, no matter how large a percentage of them was false propaganda--to lie, to make a mistake and to write a work of fiction are all different. So even if we know that Eris and Loki don't exist, if they weren't created as part of a work of fiction, but rather as part of a sincerely believed religion, it is incorrect to classify them as fictional. There may, of course, be a difficult historical question here and the distinction may at times be vague. After all, something might start as a work of fiction--a fun story told by the campfire--and people might come to believe it's true. Pruss (talk) 21:13, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

Tyler Durden?

What about Tyler Durden/the Narrator in Fight Club? Got the dual personality/shape shifter thing, plays tricks, changes society etc.Zlama 06:09, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

Yup. Durden is ambiguous, a trick-player, situation-inverter, bricoleur... Good call. I would add him. Sunray 16:22, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

Here's a review that talks about the trickster aspect [1] Sunray 16:33, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

How about Hunter S. Thompson? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 18.228.0.36 (talk) 01:03, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

OMG, I've Killed Kenny!

Sorry... But I've tidied the list a little since it was getting a tad chaotic.. I've also taken the liberty of removing Kenny McCormick - as far as I can tell he doesn't meet any of the characteristics specified for a Trickster. He does have a resurrection pattern, certainly, but that's not given as a qualification - and he wouldn't seem to be significantly more Trickster than Kyle, Stan or Cartman by those specifications. - Shrivenzale (talk) 18:56, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Babylon 5 References?

I disagree with the listing of the Vorlons from Babylon 5. I don't feel that they truly meet the criteria, and if they do, then all of the races known as "First Ones" in the series must be added. Ninja housewife (talk) 13:18, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Change of name of list

The list has recently been pruned and re-focussed on fictional tricksters, which is, I think, a good thing. However, the name of the list was then changed to "List of tricksters in fiction." That didn't seem right to me, and I restored the former name. The main article on the Trickster essentially focuses on mythological tricksters in oral tradition and literature. The purpose of the list, originally, was to provide an extension of the main article, covering popular culture. While most of the tricksters in popular culture are fictional, a case could be made that there are other figures in popular culture who were seen as tricksters. The current name of the list leaves that possibility open. Are there other views on this? Sunray (talk) 01:13, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

That was the reason I chose the wording "<x> in fiction", rather than "fictional <x>".

That way, fictionalised accounts of real people, or fairy tales, or other folklore, myths and legends could be included if wanted.

Also, "modern day" is arbitrary and subjective, and so needs to be removed from the title regardless.

That said, I welcome your further thoughts. - jc37 02:14, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

Folklore, myths and legends are primarily covered in the main article. The focus of this list was (and is) tricksters in popular culture. I take your point about using the term "modern day." Perhaps a better name could be found. But I think it is broader than "tricksters in fiction." What about actual tricksters - people who play the role of trickster in popular culture? If such people exist, should they not be covered by this list? Sunray (talk) 02:39, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

Well, unless you can source an example of someone who can shapechange or turn invisible or do things which defy explanation (among other things, see the sources for more info), I'm not sure that real people will be an option. Being a "trickster" (as defined by the sources) is just a bit more than merely being a prankster. That and there are, of course, WP:BLP concerns. - jc37 11:54, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

Yes, of course we have to follow WP:BLP and that is an important way of maintaining order on this list. Someone living would have to both make the claim that s/he was a trickster and demonstrably meet several of our traits. However, I was thinking of the role of the trickster in religion and spirituality. The shaman has been seen by Jung and others as a trickster figure.[2] In southwest Native American spirituality, there is a shamanic tradition, combined with the use of peyote. Are there modern day shaman/tricksters? Sometime ago, I added Timothy Leary to the list, based on this reference.[3]. If you look at the this reference[4] with respect to Hynes and Dotys' traits, you will see what I mean. I am suggesting that the trickster is not only relegated to fiction. Sunray (talk) 18:55, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

I think that you're attempting to conflate two different ways that the word "trickster" is used contextually.

And to include Wile E Coyote or Harvey in the same list as Timothy Leary is to confuse the reader at best, and really, to mischaracterise the semantics (denotative and connotative) of how the word/label applies in each instance.

I'd suggest two separate lists, but I'm not sure if there would be other people who could be added. (Perhaps individuals known/presented by Carlos Castaneda?)

So now I'm even more convinced that an "in fiction" list should be separate. (It also would have the benefit of better categorisations...)

Perhaps just remerge Timothy Leary back into the text at Trickster? - jc37 20:25, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

I don't think that there is sufficient material for a separate list. How about we: a) create a new section for non-fictional trickster figures in popular culture, and b) agree on the name for this list. Sunray (talk) 22:25, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

Well, as I mentioned above, by limiting this list to "in fiction", we allow for categorisation among the various fiction related articles. (Which helps navigation, etc.)

We also avoid needing to deal with BLP concerns in this article.

We also make this list a bit more "focused", and not merely an aggregate of things which have been called a "trickster".

And on the other hand, Timothy Leary (and the references thereof) would seem to be appropriate information for the main trickster article, with explanations thereof. And honestly, lack of clarification in the main article weakens the arguement for inclusion here at all.

As for a name, I'm open to suggestions. - jc37 10:06, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

With respect to categorisation: Perhaps I am missing something but I don't see a problem as long as there is a section of the article on tricksters in fiction. I've already responded to the concern about BLP. As to the main article, perhaps there should be a section on the shaman/trickster, although I doubt that the Timothy Leary case should be included there, The only place it might fit would be in a section on "tricksters in popular culture" (I say "might" because it only seems relevant to Leary's place in modern history). As to a title for this list, I could see it as "List of tricksters in popular culture." Sunray (talk) 07:39, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

I don't strongly oppose List of tricksters in popular culture, though I'll warn that our experience in the Comics project at least is that such pages ("x in popular culture") often find themselves AfD targets.

As an aside, is your main reason for opposing setting the inclusion criteria of this list page to "that which appears in fiction": Timothy Leary? - jc37 18:41, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

I had thought of it as an example. However, I cannot come up with any other examples right now, so I don't think it can stand on its own as a reason for not renaming the list to "List of tricksters in fiction." In other words, you have convinced me. I will move it back. Thanks for your patience. Sunray (talk) 02:57, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

No worries. And thank you for the civil discourse. (Something unfortunately not always seen these days : ) - jc37 03:09, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Removed

I've removed examples of childhood antics, con artists, and fictionalised folklore. - jc37 02:43, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

Moved from main Trickster article: "As villains"

In some fiction, villains come in the form of physically unintimidating characters who seek to defeat the protagonist using cerebral, yet whimsical methods. They are typically non-deadly in their intents and may only seek to humiliate or outwit the protagonist. Often such villains lean towards comedy, and conflicts with them are generally resolved non-violently. They may be recurring characters, such as members of the Q Continuum in several Star Trek series. In comics, The Riddler is often presented as one of the less violent members of Batman's rogue's gallery. Others, like the Trickster, The Joker, and Loki, can qualify as trickster villains, but can also lean more towards malice than clever whimsy.

There is also a trickster in The Sarah Jane Adventures, a spin-off of Doctor Who, where the trickster and his brigade try to change time-lines in order to create chaos which they feed on.

On the CW's TV show Supernatural there is a villain known as "The Trickster" appearing in seasons 2, 3, and 5. In the show tricksters are said to be known for "deadly pranks" often things that seem funny but in reality are not. They use their tricks as "just desserts" for their victims. It's also said [in the show] that tricksters have a sweet tooth. Later in the show, however, the Trickster was revealed in the show to be the Archangel Gabriel, who used the Trickster persona to hide and to indulge certain personal preferences. Gabriel was killed by Lucifer in the show, and he left pertinent information in death via video that allowed the brothers to ultimately defeat and cage Lucifer.

In the PC game series Thief by Looking Glass Studios, the former enemy of the Hammerites is Trickster, a satyr or devil-like creature.

In the TV show Teen Wolf, Kistunes are trickster spirits who are known for being mischievous and playing tricks on others. In the second half of the third season, the main antagonist is a Nogistune, a kitsune spirit who tends to play deadly tricks and feeds of the pain and suffering it causes. --Jules.LT (talk) 12:38, 8 October 2014 (UTC)

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The character 'Nobody', from the 1973 spaghetti western movie 'My Name is Nobody'.

For those who have seen this film, I was wondering if 'Nobody', played by Terrence Hill, would be classified as a trickster. I'm not going to add 'Nobody' to the list if you guys think he doesn't. Anyway, for anyone who hasn't seen it, here is the link to the movie...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rWVXLy_fJGk

58.164.19.147 (talk) 05:08, 12 November 2019 (UTC)

Early Daffy Duck from Looney Tunes, the Aracuan Bird from The Three Caballeros and Screwy Squirrel from Tex Avery's cartoons

I suppose that all of them (Daffy more so in his early cartoons) fit most aspects of a trickster. They are examples of the "screwball" type of trickster who plays tricks on others for their own amusement, and have shown to be masters of disguise many times. Please tell me if the three can be put in the list.--142.117.146.229 (talk) 21:16, 30 November 2020 (UTC)

Do you have references characterizing them as tricksters? Dimadick (talk) 12:25, 1 December 2020 (UTC)