Talk:List of fastest production motorcycles

Kawasaki Ninja H2(R) and Lightning LS-218 Removal

I would like to explain why I removed the Kawasaki Ninja H2 and H2R from the list.

The Lightning LS-218 is a motorcycle that went into full production in 2014, reaching an eponymous top speed of 218 mph (350.84 km/h).

The Kawasaki Ninja H2 is a motorcycle that went into full production in 2015, reaching a top speed of 209.442 mph (337.06 km/h). This does not exceed the top speed record set by the LS-218.

The Kawasaki Ninja H2R is a motorcycle that went into limited production , and is not street legal. These two factors lend to the H2R not being considered a production vehicle as defined by the existent Wikipage. As a result, despite the H2R having set a speed record of 250 mph (which has not actually been independently verified), it does not qualify a position on this list, just as the Bugatti Chiron Super Sport 300+ is excluded from the production car speed record list.

Similar to that of the production car speed record Wikipage I believe that it would be best to include such disqualified vehicles into a "Motorcycles excluded from list" section so as to explain this.

DieSonneUnsLacht (talk) 09:42, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

@DieSonneUnsLacht: Someone stated in the notes that the LS-218 used during the test is a modified model. This would not make it eligible for listing.

Do you have any information about it? --Podz00 (talk) 19:12, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

@Podz00: Sorry for this really late reply, haha. Hmm... I see the mention in the notes of the table, but I see no sources attached to it. As far as I can understand from the articles in notes (which aren't exactly gold standard references, but they seem credible enough), the LS-218 that reached 218 mph is indeed the bike on sale. Additionally, the Lightning website itself does quote the LS-218 speed at 218 mph. Actually I should add this to the article.

Also, this isn't exactly evidence per se, but the bike on sale, is called the LS-218 which, if it didn't go at 218 mph, would sound very much like false advertising I imagine. DieSonneUnsLacht (talk) 10:34, 9 March 2021 (UTC)

It is false advertising. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ --Dennis Bratland (talk) 15:24, 9 March 2021 (UTC)

@DieSonneUnsLacht:@Dennis Bratland: Well, the official website itself (in addition to motorcycledaily.com you just cited) says that speed was achieved with high speed gearing and fairing, therefore with aftermarket accessories, of which the fairing is probably not even homologated for road use. For now I would add it among the bikes excluded from the list. What do you think? --Podz00 (talk) 17:51, 9 March 2021 (UTC)

Only if an independent source has tested its top speed. All the citations I see are hearsay from the manufacturer's claims. It should be removed entirely from the list without independent sources. Right? Has this bike ever been independently tested? Not as far as I can tell. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 19:06, 9 March 2021 (UTC)

Isn't the Southern California Timing Association (SCTA) an independent source? (BONNEVILLE NATIONAL CAR RECORDS < last page) --Podz00 (talk) 19:31, 9 March 2021 (UTC)

Ah! I see now. Thank you. So the correct, tested speed is 215.960 mph (347.554 km/h)? We should say 215.960, not 218. I'm comfortable with having it here, in the excluded sub-section, so that we're clear that it's a non-street legal, not bone stock bike. It might be using a gearing and fairing kit the factory sells, but that's clearly not stock or street legal. It's important that these articles are scrupulous about stating the verifiable facts correctly and only using the best sources. The very existence of List of fastest production motorcycles toes the line of the no original research policy, since the rankings don't exist in sources outside Wikipedia. We sould be extra careful we're not letting readers make incorrect assumptions.

Thanks for showing me that. I probably should have looked harder. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 21:26, 9 March 2021 (UTC)

😉 Right, the average maximum speed of the runs performed to set the record is 215.960 mph (with a peak of 218.637 mph). I would say that at this point I can move it to the excluded sub-section, replacing the sources with the original one (SCTA) they refer to. --Podz00 (talk) 22:40, 9 March 2021 (UTC)

• Dennis Bratland - do you have this television advertising in US? --Rocknrollmancer (talk) 20:23, 10 March 2021 (UTC)

• I'm not the one to ask since I'm not a tv watcher but that doesn't look like anything I remember ever seeing. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 01:17, 11 March 2021 (UTC)

• I thought it may be the inspiration for your little illustration above! --Rocknrollmancer (talk) 20:24, 11 March 2021 (UTC)

• Can you explain how the H2R doesn't meet the motorcycle-equivalent of Production car speed record#Production car definition? I don't see any qualifier there for "limited" production. In fact it explicitly allows homologated vehicles. Bri.public (talk) 17:15, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

@Bri.public: Because it's not street-legal, I suppose:

5. street-legal in its intended markets, having fulfilled the homologation tests or inspections required under either a) United States of America, b) European Union law, or (c) Japan) to be granted this status

--Podz00 (talk) 18:26, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

@Bri.public: As Podz said, the H2R isn't road-legal, but actually I think you might be right about the limited production "condition". I'll edit that out. DieSonneUnsLacht (talk) 10:39, 9 March 2021 (UTC)

I've never thought a list containing both street legal and non-street legal vehicles made any sense. Each has their place, but they're not comparable. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 07:28, 13 August 2020 (UTC)

I agree, ideed, the Panigale R should also be removed from the list (tested with a track-only exhaust system), and, if the tested LS-218 was a modified one, the Ninja H2 should be put back. --Podz00 (talk) 09:03, 13 August 2020 (UTC)

I'd support that. We should probably at least link this discussion at motorcycling manual of style talkpage to gain consensus, then include it in the motorcycle MOS. - Bri.public (talk) 20:39, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

Maybe, even if I think this is a topic related almost exclusively to this page. It should simply be specified at the beginning of the article that the motorcycles to be included in the list must not only be unmodified production models but also street-legal (currently it's not that clear). --Podz00 (talk) 00:13, 15 August 2020 (UTC)

Why is the street legal H2 not listed? Nasch (talk) 20:44, 21 August 2023 (UTC)

@Nasch Because top speed is limited to 300 km/h. Podz00 (talk) 21:16, 21 August 2023 (UTC)

References

Production motorcycles / MTT Turbine Superbike

Bringing up the topic about production motorcycles, considering that the early 20th century motorcycles in this list had been produced the same way like the MTT Turbe Superbike and that the promise of user:Dennis Bratland "As always, we will create an appropriate list for all these almost-stock, almost-production bikes in due course" has been unfulfilled, i do suggest:
To (re)include the MTT Turbine Superbike into the list, since it meets the production criteria as well as many other motorcycles. Any opinions? --Angerdan (talk) 15:12, 1 January 2021 (UTC)

They're not production. They're bespoke. Also not street legal. You could definitely take the initiative and start a list for these bikes: you can't really complain about other people not getting tasks done when you yourself are just as capable of doing it as the next guy.

I'll tell you the reason I haven't gotten around to it. I don't find this kind of thing that interesting. Making a bike that goes 200 mph and is street legal and is mass produced and doesn't bankrupt the company is interesting. Thousands and thousands of guys have gone in their garage and made one-off bikes that go crazy fast for a few tens of thousands. When a company with budgets of millions equals that achievement, it's not interesting to me. That's just me. Go ahead and start a new list.

FIM 1000 P-P class (aka Production 1000cc class) is another list, with more of a pedigree, that would also catch a lot of the edge cases we've been kicking around. If anyone wants to. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 18:12, 1 January 2021 (UTC)

Migration of the Gentlemans agreement text into article:Sport bike

I suggest to put the text about the List of fastest production motorcycles#Gentlemen's_agreement_to_end_competition into Sport bike. Reason: A list isn't the right place for an longer text. The motorbike article completely misses the describtion about the Gentlemen's agreement. Any comments? --Angerdan (talk) 15:41, 1 January 2021 (UTC)

Yes, Sport bike would be better if it mentioned the topic, at least a little, or maybe a lot, but Sport bike isn't primarily about the top speed of production bikes. The sport bike article is a broad topic covering all aspects of sport bikes, while the subject of top speed can fall under that it's a sub-topic. The main subject of this list is that sub-topic, the top speed of production bikes.

It isn't really a goal of Wikipedia to find one and only one place for all content. Wikipedia:Abundance and redundancy explains some reasons, and WP:Summary style discusses the overall approach.

Here on this list we have some supplementary explanation below the list that gives critical information about why for a period these bikes didn't go above 300kph. The page is miles from being anything like "too long" and so there's no real reason to feel constrained about what can be here, But there's no reason the content can't appear in some form on both articles. The same content is also covered on Kawasaki Ninja ZX-12R and Suzuki Hayabusa, which is fine too. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 18:24, 1 January 2021 (UTC)

Sorting should be chronological

See WP:SALORDER. Lists in reverse chronological order are extremely rare on Wikipedia and they're only for lists that need to be updated daily with new information arriving continuously. It's very hard to find any examples in the same category that aren't chronological and there's no special reason why motorcycles should be completely different from Production car speed record, List of fastest production cars by acceleration, Flight airspeed record, etc. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 18:34, 1 January 2021 (UTC)

Max speed of BMW stock...how?

Not saying it isn't true but if we are being sticklers, then how does the "stock" 2023 BMW S1000RR manage 213 MPH? Everything I see posted claims that the engine is electronically rev limited to 14,600. The stock tire is 79.22" circumference. Even assuming zero frictional losses, that works out to a theoretical maximum top speed of 198 mph, and we all know that frictional losses are not zero.

So, just wondering. What's the explanation for this apparent anomaly? If it is "oh, that special S1000RR bike for the test had the rev limiter disabled" or "well, we fitted a special back tire" or whatever, then doesn't that invalidate it for the same reasons some of the other bikes were invalidated? Just asking. CoolBlueGlow (talk) 23:58, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

@CoolBlueGlow Hi, the tested S1000RR was equipped with the M Package (Pro Mode, motorsport paint finish, lithium battery, carbon fibre wheels, chassis kit with rear ride height adjustment and swinging arm pivot, sport seat) and with the Dynamic Package (Dynamic Damping Control DDC, heated grips, cruise control) which are offered by BMW at the time of purchase as upgrades. The tires used are the Pirelli Supercorsa SP (first day) and the Pirelli Supercorsa SC1 (second day), but I don't know which ones were used for the speed test. Podz00 (talk) 02:27, 2 July 2023 (UTC)

Ah... thanks for the test data and the article. Helps clear it up a little. So theoretical max of 198 is contrasted with real world (including frictional losses and slippage) of 193. That seems plausible. Not sure where I saw 213 mph (my original post) I must have misread or something?

In any case, I would imagine these were exciting rides, taking this or any motorcycle to near the two-hundred MPH mark. Thanks again for the data and the clarification. CoolBlueGlow (talk) 14:56, 2 July 2023 (UTC)

@CoolBlueGlow You're welcome. Actually I hadn't even noticed that 213 mph is not the speed in the list, my mind thinks in km/h :) Podz00 (talk) 17:10, 2 July 2023 (UTC)