Talk:List of equipment of the Hellenic Army

What happend to the page?

Well, my self being an old member here(im the one who added the photos to every system and weapon in the first place) I decided to look to the page and I encountered this:

A total disgrace to the human eyes reaching a climax of another level with all thos who are either iggnorant or dont know how to read properly!

The page has been ruined in the weapons section b ecause of: first of all missing information in accordanance to the General Staff's information on wepaons and photos and secondly uncomfiremd information or

just "showing off" info(like the Patriot missile when it belongs to the air force).

Unreferenced, poorly referenced, or improperly referenced material was removed in accordance with WP:BURDEN. If you would like to blame anyone, I suggest you start with the people that restored unreferenced material in the first place. FDW777 (talk) 12:53, 20 May 2021 (UTC)

Also you will find that material "confirmed by . . . personal experiences" is not permitted on Wikipedia. FDW777 (talk) 12:57, 20 May 2021 (UTC)

Well it seems you dont know how to read proper english. The source was added and still you blindley removed. Dont try to boss around anyone here, why dont you go ahead and do thge same to other wikipedia's as welll ,for example the american. The sorce is clear ARMY.GR and if you continue to isnist I will continue as well. It will become a hell no problem with me but I cant stand people who act without any kind of logic or ability to read the sources. If you want to remove unsourced go and look for each one of them. Removing information is not tolerated by anyone here.

I refer you to #Improperly referenced material removed, again, part 387 below, as well as other sections. FDW777 (talk) 14:41, 20 May 2021 (UTC)

Well people congratulations you just destroyed a whole page . Best source for things is doureiosippos and ptisidiastima for thing that were acquired between 2015-2021 , equipment before that find it yourself . El Greco 45 (talk) 13:00, 21 May 2021 (UTC)

Thank you! Of course there's nothing stopping you adding properly referenced material, but if you're prefer to simply whine that's up to you. FDW777 (talk) 14:27, 21 May 2021 (UTC)

Battle Rifle/Sidearm?

What is the main battle rifle and sidearm used in the Hellenic Army? --Kimonandreou 16:29, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

Now is G3A3 and special forces use M16,for sidearm the army use M1911.It is planed to buy Heckler & Koch G36.Nlkrio 15:05, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

I take it you mean Glock G36? Thanks for the info. BTW, is this the same G3A3 that's built in Turkey? --Kimonandreou 16:01, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

Greek G3A3 is almost the same as the turkish,the turkich has metal χειροφυλακτιρα ενω το ελληνικο πλαστικο

Garry Drougas 04:10, 12 July 2007 (UTC) No mention of the 415 Marder IFV that are being procured? Can someone confirm the number? and when deliveries are scheduled Garry Drougas 04:10, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

you do not mention under aircraft the greek army C-12's? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Deg05 (talk • contribs)

I just read up on the CFE and CFE-II (downloadable from the OSCE Website). Apparently Armoured Mortar Carriers are catagorized as AFVs and NOT as artillery! As I'm new here and don't want to edit the tabels, sp could some one change the AMC from Artillery to Armoured Vehicles? elgreco77 14:07, 4 October 2009 (UTC)

M1 Abrams Greece-USA deal

I added information about the 400 US M1 Abrams offered to Greece in 2011. Here are my sources, one in English the other in Greek. I can give more links that confirm it's true. Please someone add them to the references list! I don't know how.

http://www.defencegreece.com/index.php/2011/10/the-u-s-approved-to-grant-400-m1a1-abrams-to-greece/

http://www.anixneuseis.gr/?p=78583 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Evilemperorzorg (talk • contribs) 12:26, 17 October 2013 (UTC)

Photos

Does anyone know how to upload pics that you have from your phone? El Greco 45 (talk) 12:18, 9 March 2019 (UTC)

Hey @El Greco 45:, I know this was two years ago, I don't even know if you're still active, I don't even know if you already know this, but I think you can't directly (probably just on WikiData but I'm not really sure). However, you can post links of photos from WikiData and they will be turned into a photo, if it's a photo-type file. Thanks for the question! (However I think it would be more appropriate [and fast] to post these kinds of questions at the teahouse.) Aequilaterum (talk) 11:51, 3 October 2021 (UTC)

Lack of references

Rather than edit warring to add back unreferenced material, editors might want to spend more time adding references to the vast amount of material that's still in the article and that can be removed at any time. FDW777 (talk) 06:56, 2 May 2021 (UTC)

Support : In this article most of equipment numbers are without sources and over exaggerated. I tried to explain, but instead of caring, they continue to exaggerate and revert the article. Cengizsogutlu (talk) 09:31, 2 May 2021 (UTC)

The unreferenced material that you removed is mostly accurate. I believe only the 120mm mortars is actually incorrect, as they were never ordered. You can find a list of available main equipment here. It is clear that a lot of the older equipment is in storage and not in active service. --Xristar (talk) 11:18, 2 May 2021 (UTC)

Per WP:BLOGS, that's not a reference. I'm not interested in assertions that material is accurate, I'm interested in proper references. I've given you an opportunity to actually add them to the article instead of me simply removing the remaining unreferenced material (which would be the majority of the article) straight away, which I'm fully entitled to especially considering the article has been tagged as needing additional references since October 2020. If you don't want to take that opportunity that's fine by me, I'll just move straight onto removal. If, however, editors are prepared to stop arguing here and actually add references to the article I'm prepared to wait. FDW777 (talk) 11:37, 2 May 2021 (UTC)

See WP:HOWCITE please. Wikipedia is not a defense industry forum site or a painting book, please add information from reliable sources. Cengizsogutlu (talk) 14:35, 2 May 2021 (UTC)

Unreferenced material removed

Per #Lack of references above, I have removed all the unreferenced material since editors have continued to try and edit war back into the article even a small amount of unreferenced material. Per WP:BURDEN, anyone wishing to restore any of the material must provide references for it. FDW777 (talk) 20:54, 3 May 2021 (UTC)

Removal of various pieces of equipment

I’m not an editor of this page but I have realized a lot of the equipment in use by the Hellenic Army has been removed from this page. For example, Greece is the operator of the largest Leopard 1 fleet in the world and Leopard 1s are no longer listed. Greece also operates M48 MOLFs on the Aegean islands and any mention of self propelled artillery is completely gone. These are just a few of many inaccurate removals I have noticed. Can anyone explain why this happened? Am I missing something? Heartland Monarchist (talk) 03:00, 4 May 2021 (UTC)

Per #Lack of references and #Unreferenced material removed it was removed as unreferenced. The removal of a small quantity of unreferenced material was repeatedly reverted by two editors despite me suggesting they might wish to spend their time adding references to the large amount of unreferenced material still in the artice. Since nobody showed any interest in doing so, and continued to edit war over the first removal, I simply removed all the unreferneced material per WP:BURDEN. FDW777 (talk) 06:59, 4 May 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for the reply. As I previously mentioned I’m not an editor of this page so I don’t know what is referenced and from where. However, your edits paint an inaccurate image of the Hellenic army. The same can be said for including unreferenced material of course, but I am only speaking for pieces of equipment such as the Leopard 1s and M48s which are operated in very large numbers, can be seen in many photos and have become almost synonymous with the Hellenic army. It should be recalled Greece has a tank fleet of over 1300 and your removal makes just over 300 accounted for. Additionally, Greece also operates a large number of M113s and the M1911 is that standard issue handgun for conscripts. There are also Chinooks, and Hueys. These can all be seen in the 25 March 2021 parade in Athens. I would suggest you revise your edits and perhaps invest your time into further research on the topic rather than mass deleting and telling others to do just that. Heartland Monarchist (talk) 01:02, 6 May 2021 (UTC)

Heartland Monarchist. Although I do agree with you, FDW777 is correct. WP:BURDEN is as it is. SIPRI is a good source but it does not account for a lot of equipment donated as Foreign Military Aid. For instance, there are probably more than 2000 M113s, but according to SIPRI there are only 1069. I will investigate further the trade registers to help as much as I can. ViktorHetman (talk) 18:43, 6 May 2021 (UTC)

@Heartland Monarchist: the material can be added back if referenced, and thank you to the editor adding some back. I would have been happy to leave the material in the article for an appropriate length of time (as I said above, If, however, editors are prepared to stop arguing here and actually add references to the article I'm prepared to wait) were it not for the disruptive actions of two other editors, who repeatedly added back material in violation of policy. FDW777 (talk) 18:51, 6 May 2021 (UTC)

Regarding not sure if it was smart to delete entire items from the list (see edit summary in article history). It is smart, because it has a positive effect. Rather than an unreferenced article that people don't trust as being accurate, items get added back with references and people are satisified that the article is correct. FDW777 (talk) 21:51, 6 May 2021 (UTC)

Thanks, lads. My confusion was just based on the absence of pieces of equipment that Greece has been known to operate in large numbers. I now understand the reasoning. Cheers. Heartland Monarchist (talk) 00:28, 7 May 2021 (UTC)

NoMoreBu11. As you can read above, it was an appropriate measure. Nonetheless, I have to disagree with you regarding certain quantities of equipment, such as Leonidas II, M901/M901A1 ITV, M577A2, 9K33 Osa, and Bell UH-1 Iroquois. We may discuss it in a separate section. ViktorHetman (talk) 00:59, 7 May 2021 (UTC)

Will you please stop destroying the this page by removing weapons that have been used for decades ?! You don't always need references for any kind of military equipment , check bloody videos from YouTube involving the hellenic armed forces or pictures via Google and social media . You can't delete things just because they don't have a source link , while they are numerous proofs of the equipment . Simply check out the 2020 parade . El Greco 45 (talk) 11:42, 7 May 2021 (UTC)

El Greco 45. Yes, you do, even on Wikipedia. As I said before, I may not agree with FDW777's choice of deleting the majority of the equipment (it could have stayed and editors could have an easier job of adding references), BUT given the circumstances it was a necessary, albeit drastic, measure with a positive effect. The same happened on the List of equipment of the Cypriot National Guard but as you can see the problem has been partially solved. I assume you know Greek, thus you can use Army.gr (Γ.Ε.Σ.) and Πτηση και Διαστημα as reliable sources. I can help you with that. ViktorHetman (talk) 12:58, 7 May 2021 (UTC)

Youtube is not reliable source WP:NOYT also stop adding EKAM (Special police) equipment on Hellenic army equipment. Is it so difficult to find citations? Just CTRL+SHIFT+K and put reliable source? WP:WHYCITE WP:HOWCITE Cengizsogutlu (talk) 02:02, 9 May 2021 (UTC)

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Improperly referenced material removed, part 18

I already fixed one broken reference, see here. Someone had simply copied the text from a refernces section on another article, resulting in this. My fix actually made it work, resulting in this. Broken references in article can be see here. Quite obviously broken. I have no intention of fixing any more issues like that, I fixed one, I'm not fixing them if people persist in adding them. However, there's a more serious problem than that, added by the same editor and can be see here. This is the claimed reference for the M4 carbine and M4A1, and is here. Obviously another completely broken reference. This is copied from the M4 carbine rifle, and can be seen at M4 carbine#cite note-astymonia2004-94. However, all this proves is that the citation is false and the editor responsible has not checked any of the references. They have assumed that any gun article with "Greece" listed as a user means Hellenic Army, but there is no evidence this is the case. As "Greece Ministry of Public Order Press Office: Special Anti-Terrorist Unit" makes clear, this is a reference for equipment used by the police, not the army.

Unless any of the additions are verified by an editor in good standing, I regard all the copied additions as potentially improperly referenced and I am removing them. FDW777 (talk) 17:08, 9 May 2021 (UTC)

References

As noted above, there may be some entries that can be added back. I'm happy to discuss any of those, please do so per WP:ONUS rather than add back without discussion. Thank you. FDW777 (talk) 17:26, 9 May 2021 (UTC)

In totally unexpected news, the editor responsible has continued to edit war to add policy violating content.

• 21:27, 9 May, reference is a personal website in violation of WP:SPS.
• 21:30, 9 May, reference is a personal website in violation of WP:SPS. Furthermore, it does not even reference M16A2/M16A3/M16A4 assault rifle. The only mentions of M16 variants on the page are M16A2 5.56mm Assault Rifle and (Left) Raider with M16A2 and attached M203 Grenade Launcher so even if it was a proper reference (which it isn't) it doesn't reference the addition anyway.
• 21:30, 9 May, first reference is broken, second reference is a personal website in violation of WP:SPS. I've already told you, I'm not fixing your broken references any more. Stop copying the text from the reference sections of other articles since it doesn't copy all the information needed.
• 21:36, 9 May, first reference is broken, second reference is a personal website in violation of WP:SPS. See 21:30 diff above regarding broken references.
• 21:47, 9 May, first reference is a blog in violation of WP:SPS, second reference is a personal website in violation of WP:SPS.

Removed. FDW777 (talk) 13:48, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

proelasi.com is a blog written by some random person, see WP:BLOGS. I'm getting increasingly tired of policy violating content being added to this article despite this discussion. Should it continue, I will be asking for admin intervention. FDW777 (talk) 20:18, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

Improperly referenced material removed, again, part 387

Seriously, am I supposed to accept this in any way references that the CZ 75 is used by the Hellenic Army? I'm not even picking through all the unreferenced additions, I'm simply reverting the whole addition. I am happy to discuss any items that can be added back, but as stated above "personal experience" is not acceptable. See WP:NOR, and obviously WP:BURDEN as well. FDW777 (talk) 13:32, 20 May 2021 (UTC)

I see what happened now. Reverting to 29 April version is not acceptable, do not do it again. FDW777 (talk) 13:37, 20 May 2021 (UTC)

I will even start the discussion on this for you. Where on this link is the CZ 75 mentioned at all? Also I see you repeatedly claimed this home page was a reference. Where is the HK MP5 mentioned at all? The only mention of the MP5 on the entire site is this page (which you didn't bother to link to) which doesn't even say it's in use by the Hellenic Army, nor Standard issue SMG with multiple variants active. The only thing it reference is that it's apparently made, presumably under licence, by Hellenic Defence Systems. FDW777 (talk) 13:54, 20 May 2021 (UTC)

As of CZ75 I literally used it a couple of years ago. Either way I wont bother doing any changes. One famous person once said, 2 things are infinite, the universe and the human stupidity, although I doubt about the first one. GOOD LUCK, Im not using my precious braincells into arguing with someone both irrelevant(yes you are irrelevant here, because there are people working in the Hllenic Army who know better) and hated by the whole editing community of this page. You have my sincere regards. — Preceding unsigned comment added by SomeRandomHellinas (talk • contribs) 14:56, 20 May 2021 (UTC)

Per WP:PRIMARY, Do not add unsourced material from your personal experience. I've already explained this, but you ignored it. FDW777 (talk) 15:13, 20 May 2021 (UTC)

Question: Are army photos using certain guns considered "viable" for source because the WP:BLOGS does not mention anything about photos as a point of reference. For example, if I find photographs of a Greek soldiers using per say the G36 or the M4 rifle or any other rifle does this count as a source? Because it just so happens I found photos in the web of these that provide enough info about the type used, the type of troop(army, special forces etc) and even if they are used in wide numbers through the unit type. Or a parade, does it count as a source, with link etc? — Preceding unsigned comment added by SomeRandomHellinas (talk • contribs) 10:56, 21 May 2021 (UTC)

Do you have any examples of the photo(s) you'd like to use? FDW777 (talk) 14:27, 21 May 2021 (UTC)

Yes indeed, I will send the link to a site containing many of them: http://greekmilitary.net/greektroops.htm It seems to contain photos of troops utilizing rifles such as the G36, the M4 carbine and even Fammas, with clear distinction of troop type(based on camo used some of them are reserves,some others special forces and others the army itself and the patches as well). From that point on I wonder whether or not these photos can be used as sources because they depict the actual usage of some rifles or weapons in general. Also interesting point in photos, they seem to be collected for educational purposes(thats what the terms say in the page) and they all carry the same watermark. Lastly, many articles are out about exercises including similar photos that clearly show equipment use from online newspapers exmaples:https://www.kathimerini.gr/society/561347239/eidikes-dynameis-allazoyn-selida-i-k-paroysiazei-ti-nea-domi-toys/ etc. — Preceding unsigned comment added by SomeRandomHellinas (talk • contribs) 15:22, 21 May 2021 (UTC)

greekmilitary.net is some random person's website, see WP:SPS. I don't understand what kathimerini.gr is supposed to be referencing. If you are suggesting that we identify equipment by looking at pictures, that's not permitted. FDW777 (talk) 15:29, 21 May 2021 (UTC)

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Petition to Semi-Protect?

I'm not autoconfirmed yet, but I know what that means and I know what semiprotection is from the policy and also what I've seen on some articles. However, as I've seen being talked about on this talk page and from the edits that have recently been made to the article, it's clear this page is a pure target of vandalisation. I think we should semi-protect this, just so that we avoid any potential vandalism-only accounts or IP adresses intentionally or accidentally disrupting the page. You may specify your opinions below, thanks! Aequilaterum (talk) 11:46, 3 October 2021 (UTC)

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A gallery of images is not a reference

Specifically this page. FDW777 (talk) 21:10, 28 March 2022 (UTC)

Disruptive editing part 1,001

Of the recent additions.

Reference ":22" does not exist. The many additions supposedly referenced by this are unreferenced.

Reference ":23" does not exist. The many additions supposedly referenced by this are unreferenced.

HK GMG, M79 grenade launcher, M203, MK19 Mod3, M1 mortar, M35 2½ ton cargo truck, MAN SE, KrAZ-255B, Steyr, Tatra, Unimog have no reference at all.

This is basically a home page, and references nothing at all.

Nothing in the addition has a reference, I have removed it all. FDW777 (talk) 06:49, 30 March 2022 (UTC)

The infantry weapons page (feel free to check the other pages) contains a single, unidentified pistol. Despite this, the Colt M1911A1, Glock 17 and HK P7 M13 have been added. In the absence of a direct link that references each claimed item (and not just the pistols, I regard all items as being probelematic until proven otherwise), I regard any use of this reference as fake. FDW777 (talk) 16:08, 30 March 2022 (UTC)

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"M4 carbine"

Wouldn't it be more accurate to describe the Greeks as using some sort of CAR-15 rather than the M4, at least in terms of quantity? Most images I've seen of M16-type carbines in Greek service have them with fixed carry handles/rear iron sights (specifically the M16A2-type carry handle of the Model 727 CAR-15 and similar) rather than the detachable arrangement used on the M4:

Example 1

Example 2

Example 3

Example 4

Example 5, behind the guy with the Minimi

Example 6... I'll stop now...

Standalone image of a CAR-15 with M16A2-type carry handle for comparison

Carry handle-equipped M4 for comparison

- Dvaderv2 (talk) 21:18, 6 September 2022 (UTC)

I am not sure what you mean. The M4 carbine was developed out of the M16 and originally had the same fixed carry handle and sights as the M16. The large majority of Greek M16 rifles and M4 carbines were bought around 2000 in a single order (note: there are older variants as well in smaller quantities, bought in the '80s and '90s). They all have fixed carryhandles/sights which I suppose was the standard at the time. They are designated M16 and M4 in Greek service. By comparison, trying to remember from my own experience in the Greek military the marksman's rifle which lacked the fixed handle but had a rail for an optical sight had a separate designation, R0 9xx something. I think the Greek M4 are a standard variant of M4, nearly identical to the M4 that the US was using at the time ('90s-early 2000s) and not directly related to the CAR-15. Xristar (talk) 18:41, 18 September 2022 (UTC)