Talk:List of denominations in the Latter Day Saint movement/Archive 5

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Should a sect be included?

Church of Jesus Christ, the Bride, the Lamb's Wife

The list says that these people are in the Latter Day Saint movement, but reject Joseph Smith as a Prophet and The Book of Mormon as Scripture. What makes them Latter-Day Saints? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Patriot1812 (talk • contribs) 02:20, 6 May 2009 (UTC)

It was composed 100% of dissenters from the Latter Day Saint church so it's usually classified by historians as a Latter Day Saint denomination. Good Ol’factory ^(talk) 03:19, 6 May 2009 (UTC)

Pentecostal Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints

I went ahead and returned Pentecostal Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (PLDS) to the list as they are a sect within the movement. The entry is cited by both Adherents.com and their official site. It appears to have been removed some time back with a note of being "short-lived and not noteable," but I will point out the sect has a longer history and more adherents that other notable sects on the list (e.g., Pure Church of Christ, Church of Christ). That said, they are likely not notable enough to have a Wiki article. An entry here, though, would seem appropriate. Surv1v4l1st ^{(Talk|Contribs)} 16:01, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

I agree. I also think it should not have been removed in the first place.--ARTEST4ECHO ^talk 14:24, 7 June 2010 (UTC)

Agree, as well. The notability and longevity of any particular sect is not the issue, and should not be the issue. As ARTIST4ECHO indicated, it should never have been removed to begin with. - Ecjmartin (talk) 15:11, 7 June 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for the notes. Also agree with Ecjmartin with respect to the focus.--Surv1v4l1st ^{(Talk|Contribs)} 03:27, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

Reliable sources

I have been working a great deal to improve the references in this article and to cite all names in order to remove the "Fake" groups that pop up from time to time. I have run into a road block with the last three. The citations proving the existence of "Reform Mormonism", "Lion of God Ministries" and "Latter Day Church of Jesus Christ" fail to meet WP:RELIABLE as they are WP:SELFPUBLISH. They are too new to be in "Shields" and don't appear in "Adherents". However, I believe they all do exist, so I don't think they should be removed. However, many of the "Fake" groups posted have very nice websites (Like the ULDS the Salt Lake Tribune proved was fake), therefore I don’t think a church website should be considered proof of existence. I would like to find independent sources. Therefore I am asking for help to find a WP:RELIABLE source that can cite these groups.--ARTEST4ECHO ^talk 18:21, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

Latter Day Church of Jesus Christ

I found a cite for "Latter Day Church of Jesus Christ" but I still haven't found any for "Reform Mormonism" or "Lion of God Ministries". Additionally I'm beginning to question if these two actually exists at all. Any help would be apprcated. Once this is resolved I'm going to nominate this list for Featured list status. Any help would be appreciated.--ARTEST4ECHO ^talk 14:22, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

Lion of God Ministry

Apparently "Shield" has this group listed as "Church of Christ (David Clark)" (see), which is why I couldn't find "Lion of God Ministry" or cite it. (see also "Clark, David. The Path Which Leads to the Kingdom of God. Oak Grove, MO: The Church of Christ, 1991"). They must have gone threw a name change. Therefore since I can cite "Church of Christ (David Clark)", I move "Lion of God Ministry" to the notes as an "Also known as" and cited “Church of Christ” as the group name. This is the best I could come up with.--ARTEST4ECHO ^talk 17:08, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

Wightites?

I ran across a page that caught my eye, Lyman Wight. As I read this page it got me thinking that this may in fact belong in this list, but I'm not sure. Were the Wightites an actual sect? They build a temple and joined with the RLDS chruch later. It discuss this in Later church service and Wightite colony in Texas. However, I'm no 100% sure, so I though I would ask for input.--ARTEST4ECHO ^talk 18:29, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

So far as I understand, the answer to your question is "yes". Wight broke with Brigham Young and the Twelve, insisting that Joseph Smith had appointed him on a mission to Texas, and to Texas he would go. He and his followers did all that you said once there, and pretty much vanished (as far as I know) once the remnant joined the RLDS after Wight's death. I believe that Shields classifies them as a separate, distinct sect--indeed, an entirely separate factional group (like the Whitmerites), albeit with only one sect (the main one). It would properly belong in the "Prairie Saints--Other" category, in my opinion. I have always been curious as to what temple ordinances (if any) they practiced, as compared to the Nauvoo church, as well as current LDS and Cutlerite practices. - Ecjmartin (talk) 22:18, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

• Several publications (avaliable thru Google books) list the Wighites along with the Strangites and the Rigondites as being an LDS sect: The Westminster review, Volume 65: [1]The Friend, Volume 29 [2] The Historic Magazine [3] Journal of discourses, Volume 19 By Brigham Young, Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints [4] The Encyclopaedia Britannica, or Dictionary of Arts, Sciences ..., Volume 15 [5] The Mormons: or Latter-day saints. With memoirs of the life and death of ... By Charles Mackay, Henry [6]Prsaucer1958 (talk) 22:38, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

Just for curiosity's sake: which do you all think sounds better: "Lymanites," or "Wightites?" - Ecjmartin (talk) 00:11, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

I think that Wightites sounds better than Lymanites because Lymanites sounds to much like Lamanites. Prsaucer1958 (talk) 00:33, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

I'm not sure which sounds better, but the Lyman Wight calls his group "Wightites", so that this what I would go with. However, the question now is, where dose he fall. Is he a "Josephite" since he "believed the prophetic mantle of church leadership should fall on the shoulders of Joseph Smith's sons" or a "New restoration" church, since he broke with B. Young?--ARTEST4ECHO ^talk 12:07, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

This is all just my opinion, but I would answer "neither." I would put him into the "Other" category, with David Whitmer's group and the others listed there, because:

• (a) Many Latter Day Saints in several different organizations looked to "Young Joseph" to eventually succeed his father (but in their organization, not the RLDS!); hence such a belief, in itself, is not enough to categorize Wight as a "Josephite."
• (b) He was never affliated with the "New Organization"/RLDS church at any time, thus further ruling "Josephite" out;
• (c) I'm not sure how much he could be considered to have ever been affiliated with B. Young, since he pretty much "took off" on his own right away;
• (d) He did found a viable, separate organization (even if that organization ultimately died with him);
• (e) Shields, if I recall correctly, considers his church to be a separate, distinct organization, apart from the other "Prairie Saint" groups.

But like I said, this is all just my opinion. - Ecjmartin (talk) 15:27, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

Very true. I actually didn't even think of "Other", and I think your right. I will add them to the list.--ARTEST4ECHO ^talk 16:24, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

Pentecostal Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints

I know this was discussed here, but I wanted to revisit the issue of whether this apparent sect belongs on the list. I agree the sect does not merit a Wikipedia article because it is not notable. However, I'd go further than that: I don't think we have any reliable source to verify that the sect even existed. The most reliable source we have is a now-defunct web page from the mid-1990s describing a few emails sent by the sect's founder Michael Bethel to David Bowie. Bowie, at the time, was just a Ph.D. student writing material on his personal home page. And since he has long left his university for greener pastures, his page was deleted long ago. We only know that it once existed because it has been stored by archive.org.

I don't think that a few emails represented in the archive of some Ph.D. student's long-defunct personal home page counts as a reliable source. The sect does have an entry at Adherents.com, but this entry merely cites Bowie's now-defunct web page, so it does not appear to be based on any independent research. Moreover, the emailed material presented on Bowie's site is self-published by the group's leader and is self-serving. In addition, the Louisiana mailing address cited for the organization is (at least now) a drive-through Kentucky Fried Chicken, and there is no continuing evidence of the group's existence. My issue is not the size of the organization, but the fact that we don't have a reliable source documenting their existence as a distinct sect. For any sect to be listed here, I think there ought to be at least one reliable source attesting that they existed, and that they were a distinct sect and not just a study group, club, or online chat group. COGDEN 22:03, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

Remove - I would tend to agree. If others agree, I'd say delete it, myself. I definitely agree with the "one reliable source" criteria, for sure! - Ecjmartin (talk) 23:08, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

Weak remove - I was one of those that thought that the group belonged. However, you have managed to convince me to switch my opinion, even if it is weak. To be honest I hadn't looked into the Adherents.com listing that deeply (since it's blocked by my work). However, now that I have seen it, (on my home computer) I agree that the Adherents.com listing doses seem to fail to meet the reliable threshold. Given that the Nephite Church of Christ failed to meet the same inclusion criteria, because we could only find self published sources, I don't see why the Pentecostal Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints shouldn't fail for the same reason.

Mind you I do think this group existed, but I think we have yet to prove it was a sect and not just a study group, and should therefore not be include. After all every person who says "I'm the "One Mighty and Strong"" and has one follower would then qualify as a sect.

However, I would like to here what Surv1v4l1st ^{(Talk|Contribs)} has to say before I agree to more then weak remove. He may know more about this group and can provide more information that could lead to it’s inclusion.

I am however concerned that we may have swung the bar to high on which groups to include and which to not include. Before April of this year there was no citations on any of these groups, which is why so many "Fake" groups showed up (like the ULDS). I spent a great deal of time citing them all, but my intention was not to make it impossible for newly formed sect to get included on this list only that sect that were obviously fake could be removed quickly. Not that this means that the PLDS church should be included per say, it just that I am worried we are making it impossible for new sects to be included.--ARTEST4ECHO ^{(talk | contribs)} 13:42, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

Normally an Adherents.com entry is a good source. However, this particular entry does imply that it is based on the now defunct, self-published site alone. While I believe this to have been a real organization, I do see the quandary with respect to sourcing.

We might want to request a comment from John Hamer as he has apparently heard of the sect and may have some sourcing. Also, a check for a filing with the appropriate state (Louisiana) might be helpful. I will do some research in that regard. Thanks.--Surv1v4l1st ^{(Talk|Contribs)} 14:36, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

EDIT: I added a book cite reference to the group. Also, it appears that the sect was referenced in an edition of The Journal of Latter Day Saint History [7]. If we could ascertain the context and the level of editorial oversight for the publication, it might be a valuable addition.--Surv1v4l1st ^{(Talk|Contribs)} 16:18, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

I to would like more input before it is removed. I think we may still have a verifiable source out there given a little time.--ARTEST4ECHO ^{(talk | contribs)} 21:03, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

Does anyone here have access to or at least current contact information for The Journal of Latter Day Saint History? It appears that the PLDS was listed as a sect in one of their publications, so that might be the one source that we are after. I don't, however, have access to this journal. Thanks.--Surv1v4l1st ^{(Talk|Contribs)} 00:00, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

"Nigerian saints" 1953-c. 1959 and c. 1959-1978

According to the 1965 Time article "Mormons: The Black Saints of Nigeria":

...7,000 Ibibio, Ibo and Efik tribesmen in eastern Nigeria, who have gone ahead to organize their own branch of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

Nigeria’s saints owe their knowledge of Mormonism to an itinerant team of Church of Christ missionaries who visited the town of Uyo in 1953 and left behind, among other books and tracts, a copy of Joseph Smith’s Own Story. Fascinated by the dramatic life of the Mormon prophet, Anie Dick Obot of Uyo decided to form a branch of the church in Nigeria, and wrote for more information to Mormon headquarters in Salt Lake City. Mormon leaders sent back books explaining their laws and doctrines, and in 1959 dispatched to Africa Elder Lamar Williams, who was much impressed by the Nigerians’ zeal and orthodoxy. Since then, the Nigerian Saints, governed by Obot and a council of 75 elders, have established branches in six cities.

Church chiefs are somewhat at a loss on how to deal with their new African converts, especially since the Nigerian government will not give resident visas to any missionaries from the U.S. “This is quite a unique situation,” admits Hugh D. Brown, Mormon first counselor. One problem now is that in the absence of supervision from Utah the Nigerian Saints appear to be deviating somewhat from strict adherence to revelation. Some Nigerian Mormons practice polygamy—forbidden in the U.S. church since 1890—and the converts already seem to have established their own black hierarchy, priests and all.

Then, the Wiki article "Anthony Obinna" says, "Obinna organized an unofficial congregation of the church while waiting to be baptized a member of the church. In 1978, after the LDS Church lifted its restriction on black people holding the priesthood, Mormon missionaries travelled to Nigeria and baptized Obinna..."

Which group would such Nigerians, then the third-largest branch of Mormonism, be classed with (or perhaps as a type of "breakaway" from), during these two periods, prior their first member baptisms into the mainstream LDS fold? first as Prairie Saints/RLDS, then as Brighamites/LDS? or ---?--Hodgson-Burnett's Secret Garden (talk) 17:10, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

Update: According to BYU Studies vol47 (2008), the number of adherents were 15,000 in sixty congregations.--Hodgson-Burnett's Secret Garden (talk) 17:38, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

Source (E. Dale LeBaron): "African Converts Without Baptism" (1998): "in the 1960s there were more than 60 congregations in Nigeria and Ghana, with more than 16,000 participants" ... " in June 1966 LaMar Williams turned over 15,000 names and addresses of unbaptized African converts" ... "Within one year there were more than 1,700 [LDS Church] members in 35 branches in West Africa"--Hodgson-Burnett's Secret Garden (talk) 17:58, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

• This 2004 book by Dr. Emmanuel A. Kissi "tells the history of Latter-day Saints in Ghana from 1961 to 2002." However, to quibble a bit here, according to Wikipedia's own style manual page regarding the Latter Day movement, prior to 1978, these unbaptised "Latter Day Saints" may perhaps better be said to have been "members of independent Latter Day Saint movement congregations" in Ghana?--Hodgson-Burnett's Secret Garden (talk) 19:05, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

According to Jerald and Sandra Tanner's Salt Lake City Messenger, issue 36 (1974), a Mormon denomination in Nigeria was founded(/re-named) as Grace and Truth Church in 1973.

On August 7, 1963, we [the Tanners] called the Mormon Church offices asking if there was still going to be a mission to Nigeria. ... Estimates for the number of 'Nigerian Mormons' who would have been involved ranged from 10,00 to 25,000, nearly all of whom were Biafrans." (Dialogue, Spring 1973, page 45) ... On Feb. 10, 1966, Hugh B. Brown, David O. McKay's First Counselor, wrote a letter in which he stated: "We are just now wrestling with the problems in Nigeria, where some five thousand people have applied for baptism...."

... By 1972 the number of Nigerians converted to the doctrines of the Mormon Church had grown to over 20,000. Anie Dick Obot was the leader of this group. In a letter dated July 1, 1972, Obot stated: "I am the Bishop in charge [of the] Church of Jesus Christ Latter-day Saints in Nigeria, and we are 48 congregations with the total membership of 20,698."

Not long after Obot wrote this letter he became disillusioned with Mormonism. In a letter dated Dec. 21, 1972, Obot stated: "... I am no more with the Organisation of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and I will never go back to that group."

...In a letter to [Lamar S.] Williams dated Jan. 23, 1973, E. E. Akpan of Nigeria [wrote], "We are the group Bishop E. A. Attah led to join with you, but now seeing the truth revealed to us about the mormon teachings we have decided in our General Conference of 18th -21st Jan., 1973, to adopt the name above." The name which they adopted was "Grace and Truth Church."

--Hodgson-Burnett's Secret Garden (talk) 21:10, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

My bad. Appears that Grace & Truth church may be completely Evangelical? link

Christian Ministry Of Reconciliation (Grace & Truth Church) grew from a humble beginning in 1973 to a congregation of about 1,500 members. Rev. John Ogu

--Hodgson-Burnett's Secret Garden (talk) 21:23, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

Kim Burningham's letter to the ed. of Sunstone, July/Aug 1973 link:

Bringhurst claims that the "initial impetus" for missionary work in Nigeria started with O.J. Umordak’s request in 1946.

He submits evidence for this statement by citing the Council Meeting minutes in the Adam S. Bennion papers. Much of the remainder of that section of the Bringhurst article uses Time, 18 June 1965, as its source. This is where the confusion enters. A careful reading of the Time article reveals a different origin for interest in the Church in Nigeria than Bringhurst claims. Time focuses on Anie Dick Obot’s investigation and subsequent foundingof a church. From my vantage point, Bringhurst’s conclusions and evidence do not jive.

In fact, I find Bringhurst’s treatmentof this material somewhat superficial. What of the Time claim that 7000 members had joined Obot’s "Mormon" Church? (Lester Bush, Dialogue, Spring 1973, suggests that there may have been as many as 25,000 members of these self-professed Mormons. Bringhurst only speaks of one--Umordak.) Is there some relationship between Umordak and Obot? What about Ambrose Chukwu’s role in the whole story? ("They’re hnporting [sic] Ungodliness," Nigerian Outlook, March 5, 1963, p. 3.) Bringhurst either skips over lightly or ignores all of this. Was Time in error? How does the jigsaw fit together?

--Hodgson-Burnett's Secret Garden (talk) 21:43, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

According to Bringhurst, it is the Bickertonites that did the most to spread interest in Joseph Smith in this area of Africa. link

[In 1978] ... The Cannons and Mabeys also visited the neighboring country of Ghana. They found enthusiastic grass roots interest in Mormonism in both countries. Those black Africans interestedin the Church were mainly Christians who had, in many cases, already learned about Mormonism from tracts and from friends and relatives who had been converted. In some cases,these native blacks had formed their own unauthorized branches of the "Mormon Church." When the Cannons and Mabeys visited these branches, they were enthusiastically received because of their status as official representatives of the Church. Thus by the time they returned to Utah in November 1979, over 1700 Nigerians and Ghanians were on the rolls of the Church.³⁹

Such grass roots response was alsonoted by Garth Mangum, another Utah Mormon who visited Nigeria under the auspices of the State Department in the summer of 1980. Mangum found that the Church enjoyed its greatest strength in "the small towns and villages which are quite isolated" but had only limited support in the large cities such as Lagos.⁴⁰

 ...

as Mormonism continues to expand in sub-Sahara Africa, it must preserve the uniqueness or "orthodoxy" of a number of beliefs and practices which makes it appealing to black residents in this region.... The Church’s ability to maintain the purity of these beliefs is apparently becoming more difficult in the more remote, isolated areas in Nigeria and Ghana--areas where the Church is currently enjoying its greatest appeal. Since many of these Mormon concepts are similar to those found in traditional indigenous African cults and in independent Christian denominations,⁴⁶ there is a tendency for isolated African Mormons to deviate from accepted Mormon doctrines and modes of worship and lapse into African ones.⁴⁷

This problem is compounded by the small number of adequately trained native leaders. While men such as Anthony Uzodimma Obinna and Cyril Mbata in Nigeria and Joseph W.B. Johnson in Ghana have provided extraordinary local leadership, the Mormons could use many more such leaders.⁴⁸ In fact, according to one observer, West African mission leaders have implemented a "go slow" policy or "moratorium" on baptizing new members "until they can get the native leadership trained.⁴⁹

A second problem is the competition that the Utah Mormon Church faces from two rival Mormon groups---the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and the Church of Jesus Christ (or the Bickertonite Mormons). The Bickertonites have been active in this region since the 1950s, particularly in Nigeria and Ghana. According to its own figures, this group has 3000 members (42 branches) in Nigeria and 200 members in Ghana. The Reorganized Church, active in Africa since the early 1960s, claims 2500 membersin Nigeria....

It's odd to me that there is so little mention of the RLDS and Bickertonites in these two countries of such "spontaneous" interest in the Book of Mormon. Did some members of these two denominations switch to the LDS Church, or were the groups that did do so completely separate from either RLDS- or Bickertonites-founded congregations, I wonder?--Hodgson-Burnett's Secret Garden (talk) 22:44, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

• Walking in the Sand, Kissi (p xxvi): "Feb. 1964: Joseph William Billy Johnson received a copy of the Book of Mormon and converted. He started a "Latter-day Saint" congregation in Ghana" ... 1976: Johnson went to Monrovia, Liberia to find "The Mormons" but instead found the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ o0f Latter Day Saints. No further contact was established. Johnson's Cape Coast group split. The Apostolic Divine Church of Ghana was formed by one of the splinter groups, but it lasted only a few months."--Hodgson-Burnett's Secret Garden (talk) 18:17, 15 April 2011 (UTC)
• JMH v17-18 (1991) p237: " ... the Biafran war... " [Nigerian-Biafran War, 6 July 1967–15 January 1970] " ... had wreaked havoc with the various congregations of African Latter-day Saints. Some people drifted away, sometimes reaffiliating with other churches. ... Lacking their English-speaking leaders, many of the non-English-speaking members also drifted. Some Nigerians joined the Reorganized Church.... "--Hodgson-Burnett's Secret Garden (talk) 18:44, 15 April 2011 (UTC)

Inclusion

I agree that these groups need to be included. To be honest, I'm not 100% sure what you are asking, so forgive me if I'm off the mark.

My best thought is to break this into two groups. The reason I say this is that it is mentioned on the Wikipedia articals that the RLDS and Bickertonites had influenced in these areas. There own websites mention this. Therefore I would create a "Break-off" from the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints to include the Apostolic Divine Church of Ghana mention in the "Walking in the Sand" link since it was influenced by them.

The second group would be those 'Independent' branches formed by Obot. My best thought is to create a new section, along the lines of "Independents" under the "Rocky Mountain Saints" or to rephrase the 'New Restoration' definition to include this group. The way it is defined now doesn't quite fit, but it's close. However, I would put them under the "Rocky Mountain Saints", since most of the links you have provided suggest that Obot contacted the "Utah" Mormons and, at a minimum, asked for guidance.

Church name	Organized by	Date organized	Split off / Continuation of	Current status	Notes
Independent Latter Day Saint congregations in Ghana	Anie Dick Obot	ca. 1953	Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saintsf	Extant until around 1978	Independent Groups of Nigeria’s congregations formed after LDS missionaries visited the town of Uyo in 1953. Obot decided to form unauthorized branches of the church in Nigeria and wrote for more information to LDS headquarters in Salt Lake City, Utah. The LDS Church sent back books explaining their laws and doctrines and dispatched Elder Lamar Williams. However, due to Nigerian government visas restrictions and the absence of Church leadership, these branches deviated somewhat from strict adherence to the LDS Church doctrine. This included some practicing of polygamy and establishment their own black priesthood hierarchy, both of which were prohibited at the time by LDS Church doctrine.

As to "Grace and Truth Church", I'm not sure what you were saying about this name.

As to Kim Burningham this was a letter to the editor, so I don't know how much of a WP:V source it is. However, this could be included by changing "Organized by" to "Various leaders including Anie Dick Obot and O.J. Umordak"

What do you think? This of course is just a "First" attempt, so by all means improve away.--ARTEST4ECHO (^talk/_contribs) 17:08, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

I have attempted to create the "Walking in the Sand" groups. Tell me what you think

Church name	Organized by	Date organized	Split off / Continuation of	Current status	Notes
Independent Latter-Day Saint congregations in Ghana	Joseph William Billy Johnson	1964	Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (with LDS and RLDS influences)	Extant until around 1978	Upon receiving a copy of the Book of Mormon, Johnson and converted and started an "Latter-day Saint" congregation in Ghana" independent of either the RLDS or LDS churches In 1976, Johnson went to find "The Mormons" but instead found the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, however, no further contact was established. Upon the announcement of the Official Declaration—2, allowing those of of African descent into the priesthood, Johnson was among the first Baptized into the LDS Church.
Apostolic Divine Church of Ghana	Cape Coast group of the independent Latter-Day Saint congregations in Ghana	1976	Independent Latter-Day Saint congregations in Ghana	Extant for only a few months	The Cape Coast group of the independent Latter-Day Saint congregations in Ghana schismed when ongoing contact was not established with the LDS or RLDS churches in 1976. Some of the individuals in this group formed the Apostolic Divine Church of Ghana, however, this sect it lasted only a few months.

I added a first attempt. I changed my mind about listing one in the "Rocky mountain saints" section, but this is just a first attempt.--ARTEST4ECHO (^talk/_contribs) 15:18, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

I like it, ARTEST4ECHO. Good work!--Hodgson-Burnett's Secret Garden (talk) 06:05, 7 September 2011 (UTC)

Elijah Message

The denomination of the name The Church of Christ – also billing itself "The Church with the Elijah Message," publishing the The Voice of Joy and associated with the website http://www.elijahmessage.com, with its headquarters at 221 W. Lexington, Suite 40, Independence, Missouri, and with members in the U.S., Germany, the Netherlands, Belgium, England, Central & South America, India, Kenya, Uganda, and Rwanda – is which group? CCEM? or another one?--Hodgson-Burnett's Secret Garden (talk) 15:45, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

Per this April 21, 1998 FindLaw page re Rolfe v. Parker:

The Rolfe-group contends that the contest was between two factions within a not-for-profit Missouri corporation disagreeing over which group of individuals was the duly elected and qualified officers of the Church [viz, the CCEJ], and this issue was not a “purely ecclesiastical” matter. [... ...] The Parker-group, however, contends that this dispute is an ecclesiastical matter. They maintain that whether an individual receives a calling to a priesthood position in the Church is subject to ecclesiastical, not corporate, law and, therefore, “callings, ordinations and removals” of priesthood positions are not within the subject matter jurisdiction of the civil courts. They argue that the Church is ultimately governed by a Quorum of Apostles, and that the board of directors and the executive and administrative committees serve only at the will and pleasure, and under the authority, of the Quorum of Apostles.

How many adherents should now be classified as belonging to the CCEM (CofChristwiththeEM) and how many as belonging to the CCCEM (ChofChrist-theChurchwiththeEM)?--Hodgson-Burnett's Secret Garden (talk) 16:10, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

• A 24Nov2009 messageboardpost lists four distinct EM denominations:

1. Church of Christ With The Elijah Message, Established Anew in 1929
   608 Lacy Road, Independence, Missouri
   www.ccem1929.com
   Periodical: Voice of Peace
2. Church of Christ with the Elijah Message The Assured Way of the Lord, Inc.
   201 West Lexington Ave #10, Independence, Missouri
   www.johnthebaptist.info
   Periodical: The Greater Light The End Time Messenger
3. Church of Christ With The Elijah Message, Inc.
   P O Box 520465, Independence, Missouri
   http://elijahmessage.net/ Blog: http://www.elijahmessage.net/blog/
   Periodical: The Assured Way
4. Church of Christ, The, "The Church with the Elijah Message"
   221 West Lexington #40, Independence, Missouri
   http://faturnace.com/Periodical: Voice of Joy

Did entry #2 immediately above split from entry #1, and entry #4 from entry #3? or---? --Hodgson-Burnett's Secret Garden (talk) 16:54, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

To be honest, I'm still as confuses are you are. However, I posted the same type of question at Template_talk:LDS_sects/Hedrickite#Clarification_on_the_Fettingite/Draves_sequence_of_events. This may help.--ARTEST4ECHO (^talk/_contribs) 14:26, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

LDSA

LDSA: Latter-Day Saint Anarchist latter-day saint and a tribal anarchist — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.214.228.11 (talk) 07:10, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

If you supply a WP:V source then we would be more than happy to add it to the list, or you can add it yourself.--ARTEST4ECHO (^talk/_contribs) 14:22, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

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