Talk:List of civil parishes of North Tipperary

Teampall Tuaithe

There are two common Anglicised spellings of the Irish placename Teampall Tuaithe; Templetuohy and Templetouhy. As a quick guide to prevalence, the -uo- form gets 86,900 Google hits today, and the -ou- form 22,400. However there is a considerable overlap as many web pages uses both forms interchangeably. The highly authoritative website logainm.ie also uses both forms; it records the -uo- form as relating to the small town and the -ou- form as relating to the civil parish containing the town. However, the authority of logainm rests on legislation designed to establish the original and authentic Irish placenames, and it is not, so far as I am aware, able to pronounce definitively on the validity of one or another bastardisation of Irish placenames. Google searches for "civil parish" + either form turn up exactly the same number of results. The question is, then, whether Wikipedia should adopt a single spelling for both senses of the name (town, and civil parish) or whether it should use two different Anglicised versions of the same Irish placename to distinguish between the town and the parish. Views invited. Brocach (talk) 23:46, 15 February 2013 (UTC)

What a curious posting. It's a strange mixture of fact, mis-direction and xenophobia. To the facts: the Google citations are interesting but non binding; what matters is verifiabe sources. In my edits, a verifiable source was provided. IMHO, this source is definitive. But I'm open to persuasion on it. I will gladly review any sources that contradict my source in the case of the civil parish (as opposed to the village). To the mis-direction: the references to the village are irrelevant as this article is about the civil parish. To the xenophobia: wiki is not the place to use prejorative words like "bastardisation"; place it at the door with the rest of your Republican baggage before entering this space please. By the way, it's not uncommon for townland/parish/barony names to differ from each other - that's just the way it is.Laurel Lodged (talk) 18:27, 16 February 2013 (UTC)

I quite understand that it may seem curious to you that someone should seek views on talk pages about possibly controversial edits, but as for the rest, I'm no xenophobe, quite the xenophile in fact. Bastardisation is a perfectly ordinary term to use in linguistic contexts, as here when an existing Irish placename is corrupted to conform to the orthography of English. If you deduce from my use of that word in relation to the mangling of placenames that I am a Republican xenophobe, you are perhaps bringing a little too much imagination to the issue.

I don't dispute that the -ou- spelling is frequently used for the civil parish. Equally, you will know that the -uo- form is also used for the parish. Google is not the bible but is, as you say, interesting; <Templetuohy "civil parish"> 1,920 hits, <Templetouhy "civil parish"> 1,920 hits. When there is a prima facie equality of weight for that specific use of the placename, and you will surely accept that it is the same placename whichever spelling is used and whether it refers to the village or parish, there are two options for Wikipedia: either conform to the spelling that is substantially favoured for the village, or find a really good reason to use the -ou- form for the parish and the -uo- form for the village.

My instinct is to go for the simpler solution of having the one spelling serve both purposes, but if there turns out to be a preponderance of authoritative sources saying -ou- for the parish I am also open to persuasion. Much though I admire logainm.ie I don't believe that the Placenames Branch has any authority to determine the "correct" Anglicised version of Irish placenames, as it was created for precisely the opposite purpose of recovering the original and authentic names. It is also possible that logainm.ie is as susceptible as most of us to transposing two letters in a word, as in "prejorative" above. I haven't time to excavate further just now but it's immediately obvious that a high proportion of the web-based sources use the two spellings interchangeably, whether referring to village or parish, so it's entirely possible that there is no definitive official version. Hopefully some others will help us out here. Brocach (talk) 19:09, 16 February 2013 (UTC)

I failed to find "Bastardisation" in the Merriam-Webster dictionary. I'd agree that it's "common" but not in the sense that you meant it. Sources does not mean "web-based sources" (aka search engines), it means actual printed books or legisalation that might happen to be searchable on the web. Looking forward to seeing your sources. Laurel Lodged (talk) 19:25, 16 February 2013 (UTC)

Somebody has kindly created the article Templetouhy (civil parish) which makes this discussion redundant. Laurel Lodged (talk) 18:18, 17 February 2013 (UTC)

How very like you to take an article, change its name without discussion, change its subject without discussion, all while pretending to engage in a discussion here... Brocach (talk) 19:18, 17 February 2013 (UTC)

If only your research was as quick as your eagerness to judgement. You'll find that the new artcile is my own creation. There was no re-naming. I won't wait up for the apology. Laurel Lodged (talk) 20:46, 17 February 2013 (UTC)

Not so. The "new article" on the civil parish, which you call "Templetouhy (civil parish)", lifts material from the pre-existing "Templetuohy" article about the civil parish, which you changed to refer to the village, moving the rest of the civil parish article to the one that you decided ought to refer to the village. You have done this to create a "precedent" for your favoured form, as you did before. All in keeping. Brocach (talk) 00:15, 18 February 2013 (UTC)