Talk:List of castles in Cheshire

Clunky text

Good list, but I think the intro needs some improvement. For example:

"Castles were introduced to England by the Normans – although there are a few sites in the south-east pre-dating the Norman conquest – and were owned by the social elite." If there are examples which both predate the conquest and are not Norman (in Herefordshire there are some castles which did predate the conquest but were in fact built by Normans), it's just inaccurate to say that they were introduced by the Normans. "The social elite" is pretty weak - they were built by feudal lords.

"Due to its border with Wales, Cheshire played an important part in defending England against the Welsh." Would it not be clearer to refer to the Welsh Marches, the palatine Earldom and its nationally important location and role on the border, and the role of castles in defending the area (not "England") against Welsh incursions?

"Many castles were built along the border as a means of defence, and 8 of the 20 castles in Cheshire are near the Welsh border." Weren't they all (not "many") built, at least in part, as "a means of defence"? What does "near the Welsh border" mean? - in national context the whole county is "near" the border.

"Castles along the border were constructed when the Norman advance was slowed by Welsh opposition." Again, this seems weak - what is meant by "along the border"? Were they all built by the Earl or by local lords? What precisely is meant by "the Norman advance"?

And, probably most important, when were they built? Were they all built during the phase of "Norman advance", that is immediately after the conquest in the 11th/12th centuries, or in later centuries? If later, they would surely have had some quite different (in some cases more specific and local) purposes, and the introduction - by treating the "Norman" period almost as a single undifferentiated phase when in fact what is meant here is a period of several centuries - fails to provide any substantial historical context, in my view.

Sorry, I don't mean to quibble too much, and it's not "my" area (hence my unwillingness to tread on anyone's toes by editing it myself), but I do think there's plenty of room for improvement to the text here. Ghmyrtle (talk) 14:00, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

No need to apologise, you've raised some good points.

• Social elite" has been changed to "fuedal lords", more succinct. I've changed it to "popularised" by the Normans; although there were a few examples of castle before the Norman invasion, they were the exception rather than the rule, and IIRC were mainly in the south-east so were heavily influenced by the Normans anyway.
• While the Marches are of course relevant (hence the link in the see also section) I thought that the term was a bit vague. It's not a well defined area, although Cheshire does fall within it. It was Cheshire's border with Wales which made it strategically important. While the Cheshire castles did defend the region, they were also part of nationally important defences so I don't think saying "important part in defending England from the Welsh" is incorrect, it's not implying Cheshire was the only defence.
• Fair point, I've removed "as a means of defence" as it's implicit. In this context near the Welsh border means within about 3/4 miles of the border, so I've added that.
• They were all built by feudal lords (it's mentioned earlier in the article that castles were owned by feudal lords). Hopefully the border issue should be addressed by the previous point. I would have thought it was clear that the Norman advance was the attempted conquest of Wales (now clarified in the article).
• Addressing when they were built, I've added "The castles in Cheshire were built over a period of several centuries, with the earliest in 1070 and the latest in the 15th century. Most, 12 out of 20, were built between 1070 and the end of the 12th century. Of the three castles in Cheshire known to have been built after the 13th century, they are either tower houses or fortified manor houses; this type of structure was more important as a feudal residence than a military structure and reflects the national trend of castles after the 13th century being used as a symbol of authority rather than primarily military". Hopefully this explains that the later castles were less important as military structures.

If there are any other problems, or you feel the above issues still haven't been addressed fully, please do comment as I'm trying to get this list as good as possible (it's currently at FLC). Nev1 (talk) 15:14, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

Peckforton Castle

The list omitted substantial Peckforton Castle and so I added it, citing several references. User:Nev1 disputes the entry, stating

"The above list is based on Salter's The Castles and Tower Houses of Lancashire and Cheshire, which in turn is based on Cathcart King's Castellarium Anglicanum, a comprehensive bibliography of the castles in England and Wales. Peckforton Castle is not included in either because it is not a castle; for the definition please see castle#Defining characteristics. If Cathcart King and Salter don't include Peckforton Castle, neither should Wikipedia. Yes, I realise that some consider it the "last serious fortified home in Britain", although whether Tollemache was meant it as a serious fortification is speculation, but there are other factors which mean it is not considered a castle. Please do not re-add Peckforton to the list. Thanks, Nev1 (talk) 00:23, 22 May 2010 (UTC)"

When we consult castle#Defining characteristics, we find that it provides a sourced definition:

the definition of a castle accepted amongst academics is "a private fortified residence".

Peckforton Castle was built as a private fortified residence by Baron Tollemache and so qualifies. The date of its construction seems irrelevant. Shall we say that the Palace of Westminster is not a palace because it too was constructed at the same time, in a similar gothic style? As for Castellarium Anglicanum, this is not accepted as a definite authority. Please see The Decline of the Castle — a more recent work which explains the transition of castles from being purely military in function, to becoming an architectural style in which traditional forms were used as a form of display, designed to impress.

But we are not here to debate the finer points of castleology; we are here to inform. Our list has a simple title, "List of castles in Cheshire" and, to meet the needs of our readers, we should aim to be general and comprehensive, rather than following a single source narrowly and slavishly. Numerous sources consider Peckforton Castle to be a castle and so it belongs in the list. The date and nature of its construction are clearly stated in the list and so the reader should have no difficulty understanding the nature of the place.

Colonel Warden (talk) 08:44, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

I'm familiar with Thompson's book, and good as it is he doesn't provide a comprehensive list of castles. Castellarium Anglican is considered as close to definitive as you can get in castle studies, as demonstrated by the wide ranging use of it in compiling maps, graphs, tables etc. The reason for following a single source is the problematic nature of defining what a castle is, such as whether fortified manor houses are considered castles. In an effort to be as inclusive as possible, Cathcart King keeps his criteria for inclusion as wide as possible; by following his work we remove possible accusations of WP:SYNTH and WP:OR. This list has a simple title, but because there is not a simple definition of castles, it's better if Wikipedia's editors leave deciding what goes in to people who know what they're doing; hence the reliance on Salter and Cathcart King. Please do not re-add Peckforton. There is however a compelling argument to include Peckforton in the see also section because of its name. Nev1 (talk) 14:36, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

Nantwich Castle

I've found a couple of reasonably reliable sources that put the construction date at "before 1180":

• Garton E. Nantwich, Saxon to Puritan: A History of the Hundred of Nantwich, c 1050 to c 1642 p. 8 (Johnson & Son Nantwich; 1972) (ISBN 0950273805) -- referenced to Clark GT Medieval Military Architecture of England, vol. 42, p. 55 (L&C Antiquarian Soc)
• McNeil Sale R. et al.. Archaeology in Nantwich: Crown Car Park Excavations (Bemrose Press; 1978) -- I don't have this to hand, but it's the record of the excavation that uncovered the ditches referred to in the PastScape reference.

I think this estimate derives from the first documentary record of 1288, which states it passed from William Malbank, 3rd baron of Nantwich, to his daughter Philippa. This is stated in:

• Lake J. The Great Fire of Nantwich, p. 135 (Shiva Publishing; 1983) (ISBN 0 906812 57 7)
• Hall J. A History of the Town and Parish of Nantwich, or Wich Malbank, in the County Palatine of Chester, pp. 22–24 (2nd edn) (E. J. Morten; 1972) (ISBN 0-901598-24-0)

Lake gives a date for this of around 1160–70; Hall gives the 3rd Baron's death as in the early part of the reign of Henry II (reigned 1154–1189). Have you got a definitive source for the 13th-century date? Espresso Addict (talk) 15:05, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

Nope, I think it would be a good idea to swap out that 13th century date for "before 1180". Of the sources above, I'd trust McNeil-Sale most as it's the most vague and avoids placing an interpretation on the castle. Nev1 (talk) 23:12, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

Done. I need to get the report out of the library again, as I recall there was more info on the ditches which I didn't bother to record. If you have anything you can add to the new article from your sources that would be most helpful! Espresso Addict (talk) 23:41, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

Of course, I'll see what I can do. Can't promise it'll be much as the article's already in decent shape for what is a fairly small castle. Nev1 (talk) 23:51, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

Cheers! I can't believe I've managed to write >900 words on what amounts to a bend in the street... Espresso Addict (talk) 00:06, 11 August 2010 (UTC)

Map?

Was there ever a map in this article? Maps_of_castles_in_England_by_county has maps for most counties but not this one, it's annoying. Siuenti (talk) 08:23, 12 June 2015 (UTC)

If you click on the box "Map all coordinates...." you will get a map. --Peter I. Vardy (talk) 10:10, 12 June 2015 (UTC)

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Cholmondeley Castle

Has Cholmondeley Castle been omitted from this list deliberately, or was it an oversight? It's maybe not a true castle, but is still significant. Bazonka (talk) 08:29, 28 September 2020 (UTC)

I presume it's been deliberately excluded, like Peckforton Castle, Bolesworth Castle, etc., as they are country houses rather than true castles. The latest castle in the article is Macclesfield Castle (1398) so I assume the intention (though unstated) is to exclude anything post-medieval and with no military function. Dave.Dunford (talk) 16:38, 28 September 2020 (UTC)

I agree. The list is of castles with a former military function, not country houses designed to mimic their appearance. --Peter I. Vardy (talk) 16:49, 28 September 2020 (UTC)

OK, it's probably worth mentioning why these aren't included in the article. Next question... Bradlegh Old Hall is a fortified manor house, but is it really a castle? Bazonka (talk) 11:53, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

I think this has already been discussed under the heading Peckforton Castle above. --Peter I. Vardy (talk) 19:45, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

No, Bradlegh Old Hall isn't mentioned above. Bazonka (talk) 18:59, 3 October 2020 (UTC)