Talk:List of all war outbreaks during World War II

Comments

The quality of this page is decidedly unimpressive. For a start, there is no "e" in "outbreaks". Also, the title, if not actually grammatically incorrect, certainly sounds clumsy. Declarations of war would be a much better title. The page could also benefit from a link or two. Rwenonah (talk) 14:44, 9 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Deletion ?

In principle I agree that only one list is needed. But there are some questions. Why isn't the World War II linked to Declarations of War during World War II ? And a deleting this list, really calls for an update of the other list. This article is builded upon one reliable source, while the other one lackes several importaint dates. Examples

Soviet Union vs Poland 1939-09-17 (forgotten or hidden ?)

Soviet Union vs Finland 1939-11-30 (forgotten or hidden ?)

The German attack on Noway was 1940-04-09

And Denmark was attacked the same date (Except Bornholm which was taken the day after)

Germany vs Belgium 1940-05-10

The changed situation in France is forgotten as Vichy-France declared war at United Kingdom after the neutralization of the French Navy.

Exile governments doesn't belong at lists like these, unless they actually have a territory of their own.

Also Canada, South Africa, New Zealand, Australian and Egypian declaration of wars on Italy in 1940 lackes

And Japan attacked United States 1941-12-07 ?? - but it isn't even mentioned

Further Yugoslavia and Greece are forgotten

Croatia was not a nation until the 1990's

Etc, etc, etc. I'm sorry to say that the general standard of the Declarations of War during World War II looks like a mish-mash of randomly chosen events, that not all are valid. And with exception of unnessecary details (in a list) reguarding Germany vs Poland 1939-09-01 ,almost without sources. But I agree that only one list is needed. Which list that may be, is of minor interest to me, but it must be formal, brief, correct and supported by a main source or similar. And connected (linked) from the main article World War II Boeing720 (talk) 16:09, 9 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

While the other article may be lacking, it is both technically and grammatically better, and wikipedia policy is to improve preexisting articles rather than create new ones. The Winter War and the Soviet Union's conquest of Poland are not technically part of WWII, so they don't belong. The German invasion of Norway and the Japanese attack on the U.S. were both causes for war, but not declarations of war. War did not legally begin until a declaration existed, which is why they aren't listed. Croatia was a short-lived Nazi puppet state at the time, so yes, it did exist. Please go ahead and correct any other perceived inaccuracies (the ones above are valid), and feel free to improve that article, but there is no need for this one to exist. Hope that cleared things up. Rwenonah (talk) 20:14, 9 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I think the correct approach would be a request to merge the articles not proposal to delete both of them. Rmhermen (talk) 22:43, 9 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The other list is better technical, but that I didn't mean that attacks by the Soviet Union "technically wasn't a part of the World War" - where on Earth does that statement come from ? Any source for that ? What do You think the Finnish people that fought back thinks about such issues ? Or Polish people that was stabbed in the back by Stalin's armies 17 days into the war ? (Finally even Russia has agreed that there was a a secret pact included in the Molotov-Riobbentrop pact, a plan of dividing Poland, Danzig, Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia and Finland between Nazigermany and the USSR)

But if we can use Your technical syntax skills and combine that with my used source, then that's fine with me. Reguarding the war in Europe that is "Rock-solid". I also strongly suggest a link from the main article to the list. And do You accept f.i. that Belgium and the Netherlands became involved in the war at 1940-05-10 (the same day as the German offensive in the west began, and also the same date as Winston Churchill became British PM) ?

And that Denmark was occupied the same date as Norway, 1940-04-09, and ofcourse Pear Harbour 1941-12-07.If You can agree to such corrections then ofcourse can rest my case. Boeing720 (talk) 01:40, 10 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Finally - Not the same !

At the talk page of Declarations of War during World War II is now finally declared that, that list doesn't cover war outbreaks of war due to: trough Ultimatim, Diplomatic breakdown or Attacks without a declaration of war. Hence this list doesn't serve the same purposes or uses the same contence as Declarations of War during World War II. There is a clear call for a list of this type, it's build upon one single and safe source, is NPOV, does not suggest any other things but pure facts. And is ment as a complement to the main article World War II. Boeing720 (talk) 14:39, 10 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Problems

Do your sources actually mention all of these wars? The Winter War especially is often considered separately. Why are you using WD as an abbreviation of "declaration of war"? Ultimatum is a form of "declaration of war" as described in the Hague Convention [1]. I don't really see why these should be listed separately. Does your source? Why are all breakdown of diplomatic relations listed if they are not "war outbreaks" which is what your title claims? Rmhermen (talk) 15:01, 10 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Turkey declared wear on Japan and Germany on February 23, 1945[2] - not in 1944. The statement on Japan's declaration against the U.S. does not match the military versus diplomatic disputes in the Japanese government as described in our articles on the subject (Attack on Pearl Harbor#Japanese declaration of war). Rmhermen (talk) 15:20, 10 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

This claims to be complete for the war in Europe but fails to include many declarations of war from 1945. At first glance it misses declaration of war against Germany by Argentina, Paraguay, Peru, Venezuela, Uruguay, Syria, and Saudi Arabia. Rmhermen (talk) 15:26, 10 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The main source is now present at the List of all war outbreaks during World War II, I have cross-referenced it with Italian-American "2194 Days of war" by Cesare Salmaggi & Alfred Pallasvini , 1977, Swedish ISBN 91-582-0426-1, which is a diary of WWII. All available dates are compared, even minor differencies are presented. And - yes - both wars between Soviet Union and Finland are included in both sources. The Winter war was a part of the second World War, and a product of the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact. Why I chose "WD" for war declaration, I do not recall. Ofcourse it can be changed into a for instance a single "W", the Swedish "K" would be worse, that's the explination. I will change it myself, if it hasn't been done already. Ultimatum only turns into war only if the nation that the ultimatum is addressed to, doesn't accept the demands of the ultimatum. Hence there is a difference. But I do not demand to keep "ultimatim" in the list. However it is a service to the readers, I think. Especially when it cames to the British-French one, that expired at 11 am (British time) at 3rd September -39. Japan attacked the US, whithout any declaration of war to America prior to the attack at Pearl Harbour. (But to their own ancesters, according to Japanese war traditions). The following day (real) declarations of war came from both sides. Of Latin American nations that declaed war against Germany is Argentina, Chile, Mexico and Brazil in the table. But please feel free to add other nations incl. source. Boeing720 (talk) 16:44, 11 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

"WD" now changed into "W" Boeing720 (talk) 16:57, 11 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Request for Comment on "List of all war outbreaks during World War II": Does the article serve a discernible purpose?

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

This article was proposed for deletion for being too similar to Declarations of War during World War II. The deletion was removed by the article's creator who then tagged Declarations of War during World War II for deletion instead. This article is a WP:CONTENTFORK containing information largely available elsewhere, especially at the Outline of World War II#Timeline of World War II articles. Quality issues aside, is this page redundant or does it serve a discernible purpose for which the subject needs an article? N4 (talk) 15:29, 11 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Survey

Proposal: This article is redundant, any useful aspects of this article should be merged with pre-existing articles and this page should be nominated for deletion.

Please do not add threaded replies to the survey section. This will make the RfC easier to read for the editor who closes it, which is especially important for RfCs that attract a lot of responses.

Support Wikipedia policy is to improve pre-existing articles rather than create new ones. The information here not available elsewhere seems limited at best and could be easily included in more concise articles. Even if the article was further developed and copyedited, I do not see the advantage to having a non-comprehensive list of individual attacks that lead to or follow from a declaration of war. N4 (talk) 15:29, 11 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Support - pointless and gratuitous content fork. --Orange Mike | Talk 16:02, 11 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Delete article, that is, 'Support merging. Does not serve an obvious independent purpose. Robert McClenon (talk) 16:10, 11 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I'm leaning merge as well, but the best article to merge to might be List of military engagements of World War II. Thargor Orlando (talk) 16:33, 11 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Keep or merge. But I've already attempted merging with Declarations of War during World War II, but it was fruitless. Dates from which a state of war between nations emerges are importaint. To rule out the Soviet Union attacks on Poland and Finland -39 , aswell as the Japanese attack at Pearl Harbour cannot be reguarded as NPOV. Content may be found in the Timeline, but there is an excess of information, for readers that are looking for days/dates when a war began. Hence the need. Boeing720 (talk) 17:13, 11 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

After the mayor improvements of Declarations of War during World War II I have now changed my mind. Here I just want to add that when I first attempted to improve that list, encuggaged by user N4, everything soon was reverted. But I do agree that as of now List of all war outbreaks during World War II do no longer serve any purpose that cannot just as easy can be found at previously mentioned list, and hence the list should be erased. Boeing720 (talk) 11:45, 12 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Merge - As a content fork. (Declarations of War during World War II and List of military engagements of World War II are both good suggestions) --Sue Rangell ✍ ✉ 20:03, 11 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Support - useless content fork. Rwenonah (talk) 23:10, 11 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Threaded discussion

Additional discussion on this takes place between the creator and other editors at Talk:Declarations of War during World War II. I have also spoke with the creator personally at length, the discussion can be found here: User talk:N4#Reguarding deletion proposal. Thank you. N4 (talk) 15:29, 11 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Can there be a better explanation as to what this article is trying to cover? Thargor Orlando (talk) 16:03, 11 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- Orlando, Do You really suggest that the article is attempting to cover anything ? What, if that is the case ? Or which list do You reffer to ? Boeing720 (talk) 17:00, 11 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  - The list at this article. I'm failing to understand exactly where the focus is. "War outbreaks" in particular is rather broad and nonspecific. Thargor Orlando (talk) 17:41, 11 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Consensus

It's clearly snowing. I've taken the article to AfD. N4 (talk) 14:55, 12 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Discovered the following source http://worldatwar.net/timeline/other/diplomacy39-45.html. All dates and data of List of all war outbreaks during World War II is supported, though in some cases one single may day differ. Also a huge amount of new information, including declarations of war is available. So if the article Declarations of War during World War II can be (fully) re-made, and build upon this information, then I can support the idea of deleting List of all war outbreaks during World War II. Provailed that wars like Soviet Union vs Poland and Finland -39, Japan vs USA at 7th December 1941 etc is included. I urge You all to compare the newly found source with both List of all war outbreaks during World War II aswell as Declarations of War during World War II. Not all info from the "new" source needs to be used as it involves a lot of excess stuff, but it is a good bas that entirelly supports data in "Bonniers Lexikon" and "2194 Days of war", atleast until late 1941. Stuff is basically brief and NPOV but includes a few longer articles Boeing720 (talk) 18:43, 11 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

As I have said earlier, the Polish-Soviet war was not part of World War II. The Japanese declaration of war is also on the other page. Therefore, there are no actual differences between this page and the other : indeed, the other is both more comprehensive and looks better. The logical course of action is the deletion of this page. Rwenonah (talk) 23:14, 11 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I have now began (for the second time) to improve Declarations of War during World War II, with sources of http://worldatwar.net/timeline/other/diplomacy39-45.html. Following was not included before Soviet Union vs Poland, Soviet Union vs Finland, Germany vs Denmark and Norway, and above all Germany (together with Italy, Romania and Bulgaria) vs Soviet union 22nd June 1941, Operation Barbarossa. I fail to see why these issues have been avoided before. Boeing720 (talk) 08:29, 12 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I have now noticed a huge improvement in the Declarations of War during World War II, and linked this list

from the main World War II article, instead of this list. Hence I no longer see any need for this list. Boeing720 (talk) 09:04, 12 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]