Talk:List of The Good Place episodes

The issue of episode numbering for season 2.

Hello, everyone! I am starting this topic to discuss the issue of episode numbering for season 2. As an anonymous editor observed, NBC apparently is offering the season premiere in its hour-long form, meaning it is considered one episode by NBC. But then we have The Futon Critic as a reference, which states that the premiere comprises episodes 201 & 202, that last Thursday's episode was 203, and so on. So which method should take precedence for Wikipedia? I can see the merits and disadvantages of both methods. Thoughts? --Jgstokes (talk) 01:06, 30 September 2017 (UTC)

Because the on-screen titles identified it as two chapters, I think it should be considered two episodes. The episode summaries already contained text to that effect; I moved that text into footnotes. --DavidK93 (talk) 15:26, 1 October 2017 (UTC)

The official website for the series lists "Dance Dance Revolution" as episode number two, with the last episode of 2017 "Derek" being episode number seven. Since that's the numbering from the official site I'm going to edit the listings to reflect that ~ Brother William (talk) 14:44, 2 January 2018 (UTC)

As digital components, S01+S02 constitute one object. The effect is that torrents, for example, yield 12 episode objects, not 13. That the studio felt compelled to number the double-length episode as two separate episodes is their convention, but does not tally with the numbering of objects. I agree with Brother William, and point out that the tables as shown (as of this date) don't tally with his having made the correction. -- 96.78.228.202 (talk) 21:13, 27 April 2020 (UTC)

Regarding season 2, most sources published about that season since I opened this topic have now been corrected to note that season 2 did indeed have 13 episodes, which is in concurrence with what show runner Mike Schur has said about that season as well. In my opinion, when it comes to numbering TV shows, a variation on an old adage applies: "When the showrunner speaks, the debate is over." Mike Schur should know how many episodes constitute the content of each easaon, and to not defer to his assertions in that respect (when most of the reliable sources published since the airing of the series in question have been updated to reflect the same information) would be disingenuous on our part, I think. At this moment, I can see more Wikipedia policies relating to sources, TV shows, and episodes thereof that support leaving the count as is for season 2 and also for the series overall, but aNyone who would like to do so remains free as ever to have their own opinion on this matter. --Jgstokes (talk) 06:59, 29 April 2020 (UTC)

"Featured flashback character"

Anyone else think this column should be removed from the episode list? Flashbacks were pretty much absent through most of season 2, and the flashbacks aren't as as defining or significant than other series which utilizes flashbacks. Shows like Lost or Orange Is the New Black (which also use a "featured character" column) use them as a consistent storytelling device. I think because not they're consistent, they should be removed. Thoughts? Drovethrughosts (talk) 21:46, 2 February 2018 (UTC)

Yes, let’s remove it. It’s clear the occasional flashbacks are not a consistent format/device. —Joeyconnick (talk) 01:55, 3 February 2018 (UTC)

Total number of episodes aired

Hello again, everyone! There appears to be a major dispute that has led to the protection of this page. The dispute was caused by confusion on the total number of episodes of the show which have aired. In this revision to the page on that subject, an anonymous editor asserted the following in arguing that there are only 13 episodes in the final season: "Source is outdated (8 months old), decisions change, NBC currently recognizes it as 13 episodes (see ANY on demand source). If someone tries to search for episode 14, they will never find it because it doesn't exist." This is a faulty argument for a few reasons. First, I found TWO sources that contradict that assertion. This source and this source offer two different numbers for the episode total (52 and 51 respectively). Both of the websites (IGN and IMDB) have been used on Wikipedia to verify information on other articles about TV shows in the past. If the anonymous editor can use an erroneous claim to support the mistaken idea that there are 52 episodes, then I could claim that the sources I found support a more correct total of 51 or 52. But I believe that too is an incorrect assertion. When the premieres for seasons 2 and 3 aired, it was agreed upon by Wikipedia consensus that the hour-long premieres constituted two episodes each, which the sources that were cited at that time verified. So the totals of 51, 52, and 53 have now been debunked. Therefore, we must go back to Mike Schur's assertion that there are 54 total episodes. And I say that since it is his show in question, he ought to know the total number of episodes in that series, based on what he planned and what was subsequently approved by NBC. Therefore, Mike Schur's assertion in that respect should be the number honored here on WIkipedia as far as the total number of episodes is concerned. Anyone who disagrees will need to come up with a different assertion that cannot be questioned or disputed. Post any follow-up comments on this issue here. Thanks. --Jgstokes (talk) 06:33, 1 February 2020 (UTC)

It's definitely a complicate issue. I'm with you as well, that we should listen to Schur; though he says 53 episodes, you might have gotten confused. The finale is also listed as episodes 413/414 on NBC's press website. There has to be a consistency, all prior two-parters/hour-longs or whatever you want to call them, count as two episodes. The season was renewed for 14 and Schur confirmed the finale would be an hour-long, confirming that's where "extra" episode is. This is the same situation as other past NBC comedies, like The Office, Parks and Recreation and 30 Rock–they all had hour-long episodes including their series finales, which all officially count as two episodes each. Drovethrughosts (talk) 17:46, 1 February 2020 (UTC)

Thank you for that correction. I don't know how I got that confused. Just chalk it up to my not feeling well at the moment. I'm glad that, with other sources in dispute, you agree that we should take Mike Schur's word on that subject. Unless someone else objects to that approach, we'll keep the total number of episodes aired at 53. Thanks again. --Jgstokes (talk) 05:46, 2 February 2020 (UTC)

Using an interview from the summer before a season even aired or was finished in production is not a reliable source as during production of any show or film decisions change. Interviews are simply used as publicity to keep the public interested. Clearly NBC, the creators and writers changed their mind during final production and decided on one hour-long extended episode rather than 2. This is additionally supported by the fact NBC and all other on-demand sources only have episode 13 unlike previous hour-long episodes that are clearly separated. Also, if you are to follow the episodes and what this very Wikipedia article says about Each episode is listed as "Chapter (xx)" following the opening title sequence, then there is also only 52 total. Goodplacefreak20 (talk) 15:01, 18 February 2020 (UTC)

You're using original research to assume the creators "changed their mind". To say that interview is not a "reliable source" is absurd; when it's with the creator of the show, Michael Schur. If he says they made 53 episodes–then that's what they did. That interview is from June, and they finished production on the final season in early August. It's not as if the interview is from two years before they started production. I understand that the NBC website says 13, but they list 12 episodes each for seasons 2 and 3 (because the season premieres aired as back-to-back episodes). But, you seem to agree that those seasons are 13 episodes each. So there's lack of consistency and logic you're using. The NBC press website even lists the finale as episodes 313/314. I ask you to stop edit warring and being disruptive; you have been reverted by multiple editors and have forced the various articles to be protected from IP edits because of your constant edit warring. Drovethrughosts (talk) 15:45, 18 February 2020 (UTC)

I'm not using "original research", it's current research. There is NO source that recognizes 14 episodes. As I've stated several times, ALL on-demand sources only have 13, you CANNOT find an episode 14 anywhere. The actual PROOF has aired. There is no 'lack of consistency' on my part as there is a definitive end and beginning to previous 2 part episodes, it's even indicated on the title chapter card of each episode. The finale title card even states "The Final Chapter" which is consistent with 52 chapters (a.k.a. episodes) which logically means 13 for season 4 just as the creator said in the same interview you are referencing "we do 13 episodes per year from the beginning. I knew I needed to map this out in the same way that I mapped out the first season, I needed to map out the whole show". Production codes are only there because NBC has in their system as 30 min time slots for this show, but if you want to get technical and actually accurate, then this should be updated to reflect what is released on home media. Just because others are siding with what you believe doesn't make your edit any more valid or correct, you're just being a bully. You need current proof, which is what I provided ... simply watch the episode, there is no break and only one chapter, thus meaning 52 episodes and 13 episodes in season 4. Goodplacefreak20 (talk) 00:04, 20 February 2020 (UTC)

"There is NO source that recognizes 14 episodes" Um, then why does series creator Michael Schur literally state, "because we're doing 14 episodes this season and doing an hourlong series finale. He also confirms 14 episodes in this source where he responds "The right" to the question, "So you’ve said the final season will be 14 episodes, not the usual 13, and the series finale will be an hour?". Actually there is a huge lack of consistency you're using: you cherrypick quotes from this source about him saying "we do 13 episodes per year" but completely ignore his, latter, more finalized statement about 53 and 14 episodes. You're all fine and dandy using NBC as a source for the 13 for season 4, but why not the 12 for seasons 2 and 3. That is a lack of consistency and logic you're using. The fact is, you've literally been reverted probably 50 times across the three articles by at least 5 different editors, which shows your edits are disruptive and against consensus; you've forced the various articles to be protected from IP editing; you were just blocked for your disruptive behavior; and now you've returned making the same exact disruptive edits. I sense another, longer block coming. Drovethrughosts (talk) 00:23, 20 February 2020 (UTC)

Irrefutable evidence below... ▪︎ NBC lists season 4 as 13 episodes --> https://www.nbc.com/the-good-place

▪︎ Google lists season 4 as 13 episodes --> https://g.co/kgs/QppDXy

▪︎ IMDb lists season 4 as 13 episodes --> https://m.imdb.com/title/tt4955642/episodes/?season=4

▪︎ Rotten Tomatoes lists season 4 as 13 episodes --> https://www.rottentomatoes.com/tv/the_good_place/s04

Choose whatever source you would like as a reference, there are 4 to choose from, NONE of them recognize season 4 as 14 episodes, these are ALL VERY RELIABLE and RECENTLY UPDATED, unlike the sources currently linked (8 months old) which for whatever reason can't or refuse to accept that decisions change in the final processing and editing, and your quote comes from the same interview where he says he's planned 13 episodes for each season since season 2, so now you have contradicting statements from the same person in the same interview which in return makes it unreliable. You may not personally agree with the final result, but if you had watched the episode, you would know it is ONE hour-long extended episode, NOTHING like previous 2 part episodes. There is NO current source recognizing 14 episodes in season 4. ALL on demand sources recognize season 4 as having ONLY 13 episodes. Even Shout Factory, who distributes the home media, recognizes season 4 as only having 13 episodes, check their website for the upcoming release of the Blu-Ray. Just admit your wrong and quit bullying everyone's edits just because you feel the need to be right.

Additionally, every episode starts as a new chapter, there are 52 chapters, where is this mysterious chapter 53? Why are you so adamant about using old and wrong information?

Anyone changing this information to show anything other than what is listed on NBC is committing vandalism to the page. Goodplacefreak20 (talk) 15:31, 27 February 2020 (UTC)

Even TV Guide (a more recent source) literally has the series finale listed as 1 (one) episode which coincides with exactly what the series creator himself stated as being 1 (one) hour-long episode, and NOT 2 (two) half hour episodes, thus making it an even 52 episodes total and 13 episodes for season 4, just like the previous 3 seasons.

https://www.tvguide.com/tvshows/the-good-place/episodes/839156 Goodplacefreak20 (talk) 15:35, 27 February 2020 (UTC)

Anyone changing this information to show anything other than what is listed on NBC is committing vandalism to the page. Given that you've now received two blocks for disruptively editing this article I think you need to rethink that position. Straight off a one-week block and making the same disruptive edits is not a wise move. If you restore those changes or anything similar again then, to quote {[u|Drovethrughosts}}, I sense another, longer block coming. --AussieLegend (✉) 16:00, 27 February 2020 (UTC)

How about instead of targeting just one person such as myself who is actually providing irrefutable/evidential proof of accuracy and reliability in content and you focus your bullying on the others that are in this so-called "warring" who continuously are disruptive to accuracy and vandalism ... take it up with an admin, you're not any more authoritative than any one else on here ... I have given multiple examples of reliable sources and proof on the talk page whereas others keep relying on outdated sources and context before something even happened, I can't be the ONLY person targeted on here, the others should be restricted as well otherwise it's called discrimination. Goodplacefreak20 (talk) 16:10, 27 February 2020 (UTC)

I'm not targeting anyone, only responding to your persistent edit-warring, as have other editors. You have already received two blocks for your actions in this article. The latest edit, so soon after your last block is probably enough for a third, but I decided to give you one last chance. --AussieLegend (✉) 16:14, 27 February 2020 (UTC)

So now people are removing discussions with proof to show my accuracy claims, that's definitely a personal attack and deceptive.

It should now be obvious I am the one being attacked for no reason other than because other so-called editors said so, how ridiculous. It's a shame Wikipedia is no longer a reliable source (even schools in the United States don't recognize it as a credible source) and instead for those with ego's that have to be right instead of accurate and to prove their point they have honest people blocked and then make a ridiculous claim of attacking.

Here's even more proof to add there's only 13 episodes... ▪︎ NY Magazine's Vulture: https://www.vulture.com/tv/the-good-place/ ▪︎ Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/The-Good-Place-Season-4/dp/B07X2TZPMD ▪︎ Apple: https://tv.apple.com/us/show/the-good-place/umc.cmc.361pp6dpt0jsmj9sxywuiw665 or https://itunes.apple.com/us/tv-season/the-good-place-season-4/id1476326955 ▪︎ YouTube: https://youtube.com/playlist?list=ELT5WAaSMMQJ59ZBVHIkUAkw ▪︎ Vudu: https://www.vudu.com/content/movies/details/The-Good-Place-Season-4/1208302 ▪︎ https://tvseriesfinale.com/tv-show/the-good-place-season-four-ratings

Now please tell me how MY accurate information is wrong and justifies to be undone/reverted based on something from 8 months ago before any final decisions or editing was done. I've done my research and it's evident, I'm the one being targeted wrongfully. Goodplacefreak20 (talk) 04:23, 28 February 2020 (UTC)

You'd have to ask the editor who removed your post but I assuming it was because of your threat to use sockpuppetry to avoid your block, and the threat to continue edit-warring.[1] You really don't have a right to complain about your post being deleted when you keep removing posts from your talkpage, including my latest post there encouraging you to follow WP:BRD,[2] which you removed with the edit summary Ridiculous and continuous claims of editing warring when instead I'm being attacked for providing more recent and updated accurate and reliable sources/references, it takes at least two go to war, but no one else is being reprimanded. That's called bullying and discriminatory. Your posts are more like rants than any attempt at productive editing and, until this changes, you're unlikely to find anyone willing to discuss with you because it will achieve nothing. I certainly feel that way after trying to help you. --AussieLegend (✉) 07:13, 28 February 2020 (UTC)

My comment is by now academic, but reality ought to take precedence, I think. "Episodes" comprise the content from the beginning of an airing to the end of that airing. That means that no matter how many subunits are contained within the airing, it was ONE episode, and it doesn't matter what a studio or a producer wants to call it. If a "DVD" contains 12 playable pieces, that's 12 episodes and regardless what the studios would prefer to do, they should be numbered 01 through 12, even if the first or any number of playable pieces are of double length. Would it make sense to have 12 "cuts" on a vinyl album, and then for your own bureaucratic reasons call the 2nd cut "number 3" because you conceived of the first /monolithic/ cut as "parts one and two" of some named piece? Then the first cut would be TITLED "piece blah parts one and two", and the second cut - would be number TWO, as anyone would expect. This is a comment directed to the studios and producers, to stop their nonsense leading to these kinds of absurd discussions. When their choices lead to the anomaly of a collection of episodes being correctly numbered "01 03 04 ..." in sequence (missing 02 because the /studio/ called the double first episode "/episodes/ 1 and 2") then people should complain to the studios to just stop it. (sorry I don't know how to unident this comment. Help?) -- 96.78.228.202 (talk) 21:31, 27 April 2020 (UTC)

I fixed your indentation issue for you. There is a variation on an old saying that may apply here: "Reality is as reality does." So what is reality in relation to this particular matter? Because reality and established precedent should inform the way the count is handled here. And the inescapable reality that cannot be changed is that, regardlless of what any other sources say, showrunner Mike Schur has categorically and specifically stated the number of episodes that comprised this show that he created. Point-blank, full-stop, end-of-story, period. So at this point, unless anyone can produce a statement from Mike Schur himself or someone authorized to speak for him on that matter to correct the episode count, the debate really needs to be over here. The breadth of rediculousness that has attended the desperate attempts to assert a viewpoint contrary to Schur's spoken affirmation have gotten to the point of beyond ridiculous. Because the world-wide web is a vast place with many ways to share data, anyone reading this talk page discussion is more than welcome to create their own website for the show and there advance their agendas and arguments about what the "actual" episode count is. For purposees of Wikipedia, all TV episode and listing policies of which I am aware point to the notion that assertions of a show runner in such situations take clear precedence over any other source of any kind. And for me, that's more than enough said on this particular question. The darn horse is long dead, so everyone would do well to quit flogging the poor thing immediately, IMHO. --Jgstokes (talk) 07:10, 29 April 2020 (UTC)