Talk:List of Tamil flags

Changing name from Modern Tamil Flags to Flags of Tamils as the page covers Tamil Flags right from the Chola dynasty came to my notice through a request in my talk page.Pharaoh of the Wizards (talk) 13:41, 3 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Tamil Language Flag

There is no Tamil Language Flag. If so, this line has to be added with valid references or remove the paragraph. --Anton^Talk 00:49, 7 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

It will be hardly possible to find valid references if the flag has not been launched yet according to the uploader of that flag. Let me quote from Anubes666's comment at the DR at Commons:

the new flag is to be officially launch at the upcoming international Tamil conference. and they are taking steps to announce the "tamil language flag" as the iconic flag for tamil community all around the world. uploading/promoting the new flag design through Wikipedia/Commons is a part of our promotional plans, to reach the tamil people globally.

Wikipedia is no tool for promotion and consequently I suggest to remove that paragraph until reliable references are available for it. --AFBorchert (talk) 16:39, 8 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Agree with AFBorchert. --Anton^Talk 16:54, 8 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

User:AFBorchert I intended to communicate the initiatives taken to share the information on the Tamil Language Flag. However, The word "Promotion" has been interpreted as "a marketing initiative". The actual usage of this word "promotion" in my content is to mean "GET TO KNOW/GIVING INFO" about the flag via wikipedia, who ever make a search under the name of tamil laguage flag. We hope to pass the information about the new flag and not into any commercial objective.—Anubes666 16:42, 10 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

@Anubes666: This makes no difference. The Wikipedia is not a publishing site to share information for which we do not have references to reliable sources. --AFBorchert (talk) 11:27, 10 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

User:AFBorchert soon will comeback with the references —Anubes666(UTC)

It's better to add once you have reference. Otherwise, it could give false idea of flag. Will the flag accept by global Tamil community? --Anton^Talk 13:29, 10 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

sure they will,now the tamil people are divided in to many groups according to their nationality EX:srilankan tamils, malaysian tamils, indian tamils (etc) if the tamilnadu govt once announces the flag officially, the tamil welfare associations all around the world will follow the order & starts to use it, all we hope that the international tamil people to use one iconic symbol to show the unity of brotherhoods . —Anubes666(UTC)

Political flag

What is the reason to add the paragraph of political party? DMK could be a Tamil party, but it doesn't enough prove to add under "Tamil Flag". And, what is the point to add a "Dravidian" political flag? If so, ADMK, NTK, PMK, TNA, etc could be added. I recommend to remove the the paragraph. --Anton^Talk 13:26, 10 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

POV

DMK Flag and Tamil Language Flag sections are removed due to POV. --Anton^Talk 12:42, 28 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Article issues

There are many issues with the current version of the article:

Almost none of the sources cited in the article qualify as reliable on the subject. Example of unreliable sources: [1], [2], [3] (a deadlink to a google doc!). Some of the other cited sources are also pretty outdated and of questionable merit. See WP:HISTRS for the type of sources that should be used.
The cited sources do not verify the content they are ostensibly used to support. For example, [4], which is not a reliable source in any case, relates the legend of the birth of Meenakshi but say anything about the design of the Pandya flag.

Because of the above two reasons the article as it stands is not verifiable, and likely contains much that is dubious, misunderstood/misrepresented, and original research (eg, the article needs to be careful in distinguishing symbols, emblems, banners and flags). However since I suspect that at least some of the unverified content can be possibly sourced, I am only tagging the article with content-issue tags instead of removing the problematic content and sources immediately. I hope interested editors will help find reliable sources for the topic and ensure that the article content matches what the scholarly sources say. Abecedare (talk) 19:56, 6 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Fictional flags

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Could anyone explain why can't we use fictional or illustrated work at Wikipedia? There are so many fictional flags and use widely in Wikimedia projects. --Anton^Talk 04:24, 9 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Please read WP:OR. - Sitush (talk) 12:32, 9 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Please read Wikipedia:CRV --Anton^Talk 12:50, 9 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I don't see the relevance of WP:CRV which, in any case, is merely an essay whereas WP:OR is policy. - Sitush (talk) 13:02, 9 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

When removing a section of an article, it is necessary that it at least be explained, and in some cases, discussed. It's not regarding to issue, but regarding to your edit. --Anton^Talk 13:45, 9 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The removals were explained in the edit summaries. The reasons are valid, indeed incontrovertibly so, and thus further discussion should not really have been necessary. However, since you have started this, just watch and learn I guess. - Sitush (talk) 13:49, 9 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Edit summary didn't give much view and you were keen to remove/revert during discussion. I removed many portion in this article before you. But, I express me concert at talk page and I gave time to others. The world will not end tomorrow. --Anton^Talk 14:44, 9 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Comment - Wikipedia should present information that's verifiable from reliable sources. Showing a made-up flag that isn't attested in such sources does our readers a disservice by pretending something is historical that really isn't. Huon (talk) 13:18, 9 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Huon, thanks for the comment. --Anton^Talk 13:45, 9 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Comment I had already left a note on AntanO's talk page a few days back explaining the issue, but to expand/repeat: we need WP:HISTRS compliant sources for images of flags for dynasties that ruled 100s-1000s of years ago, and if we are to add speculative-reconstructions of those flags those reconstructions will need to be done by published scholars who are knowledgeable of the history, culture, iconography, and technology (available pigments, and dyeing, and printing techniques) of the eras. Even in those cases, the illustration will need in-text attribution and explanation of what is known as a fact and what is being extrapolated. (See the planet images on the Pluto article for how this standard is met.) Wikipedian-designed flags such as and which simply snap on a random drawing of a tiger on a randomly shaped flag with "traditional Tamil colors (???), red, yellow, black and white" are perfect examples of impermissible WP:OR/WP:SYNTHESIS and do not belong in article-space anywhere on wikipedia. Abecedare (talk) 14:56, 9 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I do not like to talk too much on this issue. I wanted to know illustration work vs. relativity in the light of Wiki policy without bias. I agree what Huon says. Meantime, Plato's portrait bust is not actual, but illustration. Likewise, all religious God's images are illustration work. These images are not verifiable and not from reliable sources, but illustration of artists. --Anton^Talk 17:36, 9 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Well, editors of Wikipedia did not create that bust of Plato, and neither did they create those images of God. Mr. Gerbear|Talk 00:17, 15 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Comment We (artists) are trying here to restore flags, who are lost over centuries. These illustrated flags help the readers to imagine the historical flags and close this gap in history. The readers are clearly informed that these flags are not official, so I see no reason to remove these pictures. Why red, yellow, black and white? Because you can not randomly choose any color. The researchers do not know about the skin color of the cave lion but they believe that it had similar color as today's lions. Vatasura (talk) 23:52, 9 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

If the proposed flags are researchers' reproductions published in history textbooks or peer-reviewed scholarly articles, please provide the sources. If they're just users' ideas of what the flags might have looked like, that's something else entirely. Huon (talk) 00:39, 10 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

RFC advertized at Wikiproject India noticeboard and No original research noticeboard. Abecedare (talk) 23:32, 9 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Comment Illustrative flags are perfectly fine. However, imo, these cannot be produced solely by Wikipedians as this violates WP:OR and WP:SYNTHESIS. If some other work had a picture of that flag, then the illustration could be sourced from there and then reproduced on Wikipedia. Otherwise, any speculation on what a flag would look like is downright intellectual dishonesty. Wikipedia is not here to speculate. Mr. Gerbear|Talk 00:16, 15 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: I agree with Huon's stance. This is an encyclopædia; we should endeavor to present the truth, and if there are gaps we shouldn't just make stuff up to fill the gap. We should not present "recreations" to readers if there is a chance that readers would believe them to be real. We already have a big enough problem with editors making images based on fanciful little banners from old maps, and then treating those images like modern flags. bobrayner (talk) 00:37, 15 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Sri Lankan Tamil Ethnic flag

The Sri Lankan Tamil Ethnic flag looks to be another case of a fictional flag, not sure if there is any such thing, the image was created by a dubious editor and links only to a sole paragraph in a single source, there isn't even an image. Im not sure there even exist such a flag.--Blackknight12 (talk) 20:18, 29 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Comment Same here, I think this flag of Sitawaka Kingdom is probably fictional flag, can someone add credible source? . Vatasura (talk) 19:00, 2 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

LTTE

A random flag proposed by a random advocacy group is not a "flag of the Tamils" and we should not be suggesting that the group is somehow representative of Tamils. - Sitush (talk) 10:24, 17 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The Flag has been worldwide for over 30 years and in the formerly Rebel controlled areas of Sri lanka and perhaps the most popular symbol of atleast Sri Lankan Tamil nationalism. Tamil flags flown at protest legal, Toronto police say CBC Canada ,Sri Lanka’s flag row: national symbol or not? The Hindu ,Tamil Eelam flag flown in Toronto protest legal - Canadian Police ,^[1] Rules guide on use of Tamileelam National flag published Pharaoh of the Wizards (talk) 10:45, 17 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

References

^ Øivind Fuglerud (1999). Life on the Outside: The Tamil Diaspora and Long-distance Nationalism. Pluto Press. p. 155. ISBN 978-0-7453-1438-9. Retrieved 17 May 2018.

Which rather begs the question: what actually is the focus of this article? All Tamils or any Tamils? If someone down the road in Colombo designed a flag and stuck it in their window, would that qualify? And should the flags of all the various Tamil political parties be here? - Sitush (talk) 10:48, 17 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry if I was not clear .Not all flags the Tamil Tiger flag was the flag of the de facto state in the North east and was the used during the 26 year Sri Lankan Civil War this is the only exception and is the most well known Tamil flag in the World.Please note I did not add it here or Anton ,It was added in 2017 by another user but can source this extensively .CNN calls it They waved the red flag of Tamil Eelam, the Tamils' traditional homeland in northern and eastern Sri Lanka. The flag is emblazoned with a yellow roaring tiger.Pharaoh of the Wizards (talk) 11:02, 17 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Hm, I can sort of see your point. An official flag of an organisation that was never official, though? I'll go through your links - if they suggest that it had official recognition anywhere outside of the LTTE then fair enough. - Sitush (talk) 11:13, 17 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

It appears to be tricky from those sources. Aside from Tamilnation, which is hardly neutral in the matter, the gist seems to be that LTTE supporters have used it elsewhere even though the LTTE itself was a banned organisation. That local laws didn't prohibit displaying the thing doesn't really make much difference. On the other hand, looking at, for example, List of flags of Ireland it seems that this wayward approach to inclusion is accepted elsewhere even though it seems utterly daft to me and has no end (as I said above, anyone can design a flag and who defines "Tamil"?) I'm sort of on the fence now: including it here just because other articles allow it doesn't seem like a great rationale but, yes, it is clear that a lot of people did choose to use it even though it seems not to have been officially recognised by any body (not anybody because clearly supporters rallied to it as a symbol). What does SpacemanSpiff think? They removed it before me. - Sitush (talk) 11:47, 17 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

In addition to CNN calling the Tiger flag the Tamil Eelam Flag over Over 2000 Books do the same.Pharaoh of the Wizards (talk) 11:57, 17 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The CBC source is quite clear: "The display of Tamil Tiger flags during a protest by members of Toronto's Tamil community", it's a Tamil Tiger flag, that the tiger supporters and sympathizers go about waving it as the Eelam flag doesn't make any difference. Likewise one of the better book references says something to the effect of protesters routinely using a virtually similar flag without the LTTE words, none of the sources that I have read even remotely suggest that "1990 designated as the National flag of Tamil Eelam" just that the diaspora has been routinely conflating the LTTE flag with that of the proposed state. —SpacemanSpiff 14:26, 17 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Irrespective of whether it has been officially recognised or its origin, there a significant number of Tamils who consider it their flag and if we have WP:RS to back this up why shouldn't it be included in this article?--Obi2canibe (talk) 17:25, 19 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The Tigers flag is probably the most famous flag of the Tamils and should not be missing in an article which is called as "Flags of Tamils". The red flag with tiger is actively used by Tamils around the world and can not be ignored. Worldwide, this flag is raised by Tamils as the flag of Tamil Eelam.Tamil flag flown high in Geelong, This was the first official raising of the flag in the southern hemisphere outside of Tamil Eelam. Tamil Eelam plays as one of the unrecognized states in CONIFA and this flag was used to represent Tamil Eelam. The Tiger flag was created 1976 as the flag of LTTE and was changed and adopted 1990 as the national flag of Tamil Eelam, like the Swaraj flag of Indian National Congress was changed and adopted as national flag of India. The national flag of India represent India and not the Congress and so the national flag of Tamil Eelam represent Tamil Eelam and not LTTE. --Vatasura (talk) 23:15, 21 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I'm removing this flag. The source for the flag [5] is not a reliable source. We don't know who owns the web site or what it actually represents. Please see WP:RS for what constitutes a reliable source. The text attached to the flag is completely unsupported by this "unreliable" source as well and appears to be WP:OR. When a WP:RS can be found, the flag can be added back into the article. --regentspark (comment) 10:56, 10 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

[Fuglerud1999-1] Øivind Fuglerud (1999). Life on the Outside: The Tamil Diaspora and Long-distance Nationalism. Pluto Press. p. 155. ISBN 978-0-7453-1438-9. Retrieved 17 May 2018.

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