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Taiwan will be listed as a country on the table in this article.

There appears to be a concerted effort both on and off of Wikipedia for Taiwan and Hong Kong to be listed as part of China and not to be listed as countries in a variety of publications.

The local consensus here is that Wikipedia articles, including this one, should generally use the terms used by their sources without regard for the precise political status of included regions.

Where there is no consistent term used in sources for a selection of countries and regions which are not regarded as countries, the term "Countries/Territories" may be used as a heading.

In this article, the term "Countries" alone will be used, following its sources.

(non-admin closure) Daask (talk) 20:57, 6 July 2018 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

User:YSSYguy has edited at least a handful of pages on Wikipedia to remove references to Hong Kong and Macau as countries (an English word which encompasses independent sovereign states and inhabited dependent territories and special areas in dictionaries and encyclopaedias, on Wikipedia and elsewhere), e.g., but not limited to, [1], [2], [3], [4]. What she/he did was, perhaps, somehow coincidental to what's happening to airline companies, hotel chains and possibly other businesses worldwide. [5], [6], [7], [8], [9] [10], [11], [12], [13] Input from the Wikipedian community is necessary to explore how such a possible 'spillover' to Wikipedia can be tackled and resolved, and how NPOV can be observed and upheld amidst the recent trade wars. 219.76.18.78 (talk) 06:18, 20 May 2018 (UTC)

  • Follow sources. We should acknowledge that the world is complicated. Some airlines and aviation industry lists put Hong Kong as a separate territory from China; others put Hong Kong under the China list. We should follow reliable sources, such as the airlines' own listings. I understand the urge to standardise but it would be against NPOV to impose a blanket rule on this, especially as 219.76 has pointed out above that whatever Wikipedia decides on will have real-world political consequences. Deryck C. 18:20, 21 May 2018 (UTC)
  • Do not list as countries. Sorry, but since when are Hong Kong and Macau considered "countries" in standard English usage? I can see arguments arising over Taiwan/PRC, but I really don't understand the basis for calling Hong Kong and Macau countries. Dbrote (talk) 17:54, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
  • You have managed to demonstrate that The Economist and the Straits Times treat Hong Kong and China as separate economies. As well they might, considering Hong Kong's special status within China. That doesn't make Hong Kong a country though. YSSYguy (talk) 07:25, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
  • Follow sources. Same opinion as Deryck. Namely, no one makes Hong Kong to be, or not to be, a country, on Wikipedia. If the source (here, airline official sites) says it is/is not, follow it. "Standard English usage" (original research) and your political stance do not count.--ネイ (talk) 09:04, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
  • I'm sorry, but why on earth would airline sites determine whether Hong Kong is a country? Academic articles, encyclopedias, and dictionary definitions all establish that Hong Kong isn't a country. There's a reason Hong Kong describes Hong Kong as a territory, not a country. Airline websites might *treat* Hong Kong as its own country for logistical or other reasons, but that doesn't make it a country. Dbrote (talk) 21:06, 24 May 2018 (UTC)
  • Follow logic. I personally would state that Hong Kong is a destination, and using the Hong Kong SAR / Macau SAR flag makes 100% sense.--1233Talk 09:54, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
  • Comment: The word countries in English is surely broader than independent and sovereign states. In  Tjhe Kwet Koe v Minister for Immigration & Ethnic Affairs [1997] FCA 912 [35] Australia's Federal Court ruled against the plaintiff's argument that Hong Kong was not a country. The lordships argued so despite that in their observation Hong Kong got no international legal personality back in the 1970s were the plaintiff secured his permanent residency in Hong Kong. (And yet since the 1980s Hong Kong has entered into bilateral and multilateral treaties and agreements and assumed its own membership in international or intergovernmental organisations, e.g., the GATT, the IOC, the WMO, the WOSM, the ADB, the BIS, the WAGGGS, etc.) 219.76.18.75 (talk) 12:06, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
  • Follow sources: Since everything on Wikipedia is the result of sumarized sources I see no real reason not to do so. Robertgombos (talk) 04:54, 27 May 2018 (UTC)
  • Think outside the box. Instead of the heading being Countries, make it Countries/Territories or Countries/Regions. Perhaps doing that would have avoided a long, drawn out debate. Peter K Burian (talk) 12:55, 27 May 2018 (UTC)
  • Use Countries/Territories as suggested by Peter K Burian. In general airlines avoid using the term "countries" and generally use "destinations". We should follow what is the generally accepted practice. I think using "Countries/Territories" as a header solves the problem--DreamLinker (talk) 07:51, 3 June 2018 (UTC)
  • Just say "countries". The word "country" is not and should not be taken as identical to independent states (as in the Australian case someone else has quoted, e.g.). Given what the Chinese communist government is now doing to airline companies, hotel chains, et cetera, it's going to be like a slippery slope if we now settle on countries/territories or follow sources - Few months or few years later we wouldn't even be able to call territories territories. Wikipedia has its own policy on neutrality and we all got the duty to uphold it. Any decision regarding airline destination lists would have unintended consequences on other (non-aviation-related) lists across Wikipedia compiled along countries. 219.77.112.204 (talk) 16:42, 3 June 2018 (UTC)
    • strongly oppose IP 219.77.112.204's words. New Territories in Hong Kong is territories, territories is not just for countries, it is for any particular regions inc. dependent regions. Sænmōsà 04:54, 11 June 2018 (UTC)
  • Countries/Territories (Summoned by bot) – was going to make the same exact comment that Peter K Burian did above, but he beat me to it. Mathglot (talk) 04:56, 11 June 2018 (UTC)
  • Countries/Territories (invited randomly by a bot) This appears to be a case of POV on both sides. Instead rely on good sources. Generalize the terminology to match the airline's and move on. Jojalozzo (talk) 16:44, 12 June 2018 (UTC)
  • Stick with countries. Oppose countries/​territories. I am not too sure how the folks here are familiar with how the word "country" is actually understood, and how much they'd know about how democratic countries in the civilised world are responding to Beijing's bullies.[36] [37] [38] Sb else have submitted hyperlinks to publications like the Economist, the Straits Times, the FT, and an Australian case law. Enclosed below are my two cents taken from academic journals and other materials produced by professional bodies in various fields (you may want to highlight the words "countries" or "Hong Kong" with your browser when you read). One of which is a UN publication, and another one by the ILO.
  • "The seven East Asia countries are: China, Japan, Hong Kong, Korea DR, Korea Rep, Macao and Taiwan. The ten Southeast Asian countries are: Brunei, Cambodia, Indonesia, Lao PDR, Malaysia, Myanmar, Philippines, Singapore, Thailand and Vietnam. A major constraint to the comparative analysis of these seventeen countries is the unevenness of data reporting and available population statistics. While some countries (for example, Japan, Hong Kong and Singapore) publish periodic and detailed figures on a wide range of population characteristics and census data, other countries publish only general indicators and/or only irregularly (forexample, China, Malaysia and Vietnam) or sporadically (for example, Brunei, Cambodia, Korea DR, Lao PDR, Myanmar) or are not included in the United Nations reports (Taiwan). Thus, the comparative analysis of family trends was conducted on the ten countries in East and Southeast Asia for which comparative data were available: China, Hong Kong, Japan and the Republic of Korea (henceforth referred to as Korea) representing East Asia, and Indonesia, Malaysia, Philippines, Singapore, Thailand and Vietnam representing Southeast Asia."

    "The average age at marriageis highest for Japan, Hong Kong and Singapore, the three countries with the highes tincome per capita and HDI ratings. This contrast with the tendency of men andwomen to marry early in countries with the lowest GDP and HDI scores: Vietnam, Indonesia, Philippines, and China."

    "N refers to the number of countries included in the calculation. All ten countries have marital status data for 1990/91. The 1995/96 marital status data are for six of the ten countries: Japan, Korea, Hong Kong, Indonesia, Philippines and Thailand. Data for Singapore refers to the 2000 Census of Population (Leow, 2001). The other three countries (China, Malaysia and Vietnam) have no comparable marital status data available at the time of writing this report. There was no 1999 HDI score for Vietnam."

    "Countries with the highest HDI scores (Japan, Korea, Hong Kong and Singapore) show the strongest tendency towards marriage postponement as they have significantly lower proportions of their women aged 20-24 being married. In contrast, this female cohort has a larger proportion of married persons in countries with the lowest HDI scores (Indonesia, Philippines and Thailand)."

    "Using the data that permit comparisons, seven of theten countries with complete figures for 1990/91 and 1995/96 could be examined (Japan, Korea, Hong Kong, Indonesia, Philippines, Singapore, and Thailand)." Final Report - Main Family Trends in East and Southeast Asia (p. 2-3, 5, 7, 8, 14)

  • "For instance, of the total 1.43 million landbased Filipino workers deployed worldwide in 2014, more than one fifth (21.3 per cent or 304,623) were deployed in just three East and Southeast Asian countries of Singapore, Hong Kong and Taiwan (POEA 2015), and the vast majority of them were women and in domestic services and caregiving. The substantial social, cultural, and institutional diversity that exist amongst receiving and sending countries within East and Southeast Asia also afford a rich ground for comparing national and transnational care migration policies and regimes." Transnational Migration of Domesticand Care Workers in Asia Pacific (pp. 1, 3, 7-8)
  • "The five countries of Hong Kong, Japan, Korea, Singapore and Taiwan are considered to be the major Asian economic ‘Tigers’ behind Asia's growth in the late 1900s. In this paper, we analyze the consumption patterns of these five countries, using the most recent consumption data and employing the system‐wide approach." Similarities in the Consumption Patterns of the Five Asian Tigers (abstract)
  • "Every indicator of economic and social development showed that the Asian countries were far behind Latin American countries. In 1950, it was estimated that the real per capita GNP of Japan was US$251. South Korea and Taiwan were among the poorest with less than US$100 real per capita GNP. Hong Kong and Singapore were relatively better off. Their real per capita GNP were about US$200 and US$400 respectively (Tan, 1992)." Making sense of the Asian success story: An integrative framework (introduction)
  • "In other words, those Asian countries like Singapore and Hong Kong which follow this logic of corruption control are more successful in combating corruption than Indonesia and Pakistan which do not."

    "The 12 Asian countries are ranked as follows, from the least corrupt to the most corrupt: Singapore, Japan, Hong Kong, Malaysia, South Korea, Taiwan, Thailand, India, Philippines, Indonesia, Vietnam and China." Comparing Anti-corruption Measures in Asian Countries: Lessons to be Learnt (pp. 72, 87)

  • "So far, only five Asian countries can genuinely be called wealthy: Japan, South Korea, Taiwan, Hong Kong and Singapore. " Can Asia get rich?
  • "The Asian financial crises was started in July 1997, these crises spread in many East Asian countries like Philippines, Malaysia, Singapore, china, south Korea, Indonesia, Thailand, Taiwan and Hong Kong."

    "The western element of Asia has increased in this period more or less the same speed as the rest of the world but in common, the eastern half ten countries: Malaysia, China, Hong Kong, Japan, Korea, Indonesia, Philippines, Singapore, Taiwan and Thailand twisted in a better performance, even though the variation in results can also be seen here. "

    "The investment ratio in Hong Kong is not much affected in 1998 because this country was not much dependent on others imports, due to this reason, this country was little bit effected (Figure 12)." The Impact of Financial Crises and Economic Growth of East Asian Countries

  • "Excepting the motivation of the famous “Asian values”, economic and industrial policies in these countries have been very different. Of the four Newly Industrialising Economies, or NIEs, only Hong Kong had really followed liberalising policies (Akyüz 1998 p. 1)."

    "It must be remembered that these investment flows are concentrated in a few countries and even the investing countries are not very differentiated. From 1986 to 1992, over 80% of FDI in China came from only five Asian countries: Japan, Singapore, Hong Kong, South Korea and Taiwan."

    "At the very beginning many countries came to Thailand’s aid: these were Japan and Australia, but also South Korea, Malaysia, Hong Kong, Singapore and Indonesia itself (IMF 1997a and IMF 1997b)." Economic and Financial Instability: Lessons from the Asian Crisis

All we got to do is to bear in mind the values which Wikipedia represents, and that as an encyclopaedia we should reflect the actual situation in reputable sources rather than create our Wikicommunity's own agenda. 219.76.15.10 (talk) 10:55, 13 June 2018 (UTC)
  • "Country", not "country/territory", nor under China. Here's its meaning from 1911 Encyclopædia Britannica. "COUNTRY (from the Mid. Eng. contre or contrie, and O. Fr. cuntrée; Late Lat. contrata, showing the derivation from contra, opposite, over against, thus the tract of land which fronts the sight, cf. Ger. Gegend, neighbourhood), an extent of land without definite limits, or such a region with some peculiar character, as the “black country,” the “fen country” and the like. The extension from such descriptive limitation to the limitation of occupation by particular owners or races is easy; this gives the common use of the word for the land inhabited by a particular nation or race. Another meaning is that part of the land not occupied by towns, “rural” as opposed to “urban” districts; this appears too in “country-house” and “country town”; so too “countryman” is used both for a rustic and for the native of a particular land. The word appears in many phrases, in the sense of the whole population of a country, and especially of the general body of electors, as in the expression “go to the country,” for the dissolution of parliament preparatory to a general election." 116.48.236.111 (talk) 09:43, 14 June 2018 (UTC)
    • How they are presented on the website of the airline companies can only serve as point of reference but not something to follow. Their values are even lower given how these companies had caved to Beijing's pressure. 116.48.236.111 (talk) 09:46, 14 June 2018 (UTC)
  • Country, this is an established, long-term convention in many sources, as evidenced by previous responses. I don't think we should be super pedantic about this issue. Wikipedia has lately seen more and more pushing of Chinese sovereignty over Taiwan, Tibet, Hong Kong, etc. – often through the use of sockpuppets – as the Chinese government has become more and more aggressive in this regard. Hong Kong is a vastly different context and is commonly presented alongside countries in lists of statistics, etc. I don't see the need to bend common conventions to suit a government's political campaign. Citobun (talk) 12:29, 16 June 2018 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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