Talk:List of Roman gentes

This article

This article is intended to supplement, and eventually replace the article List of Roman nomina. P Aculeius (talk) 16:38, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

• Should they be merged? Gioto (talk) 23:05, 6 September 2011 (UTC)

• • No, the article will replace, not merge with, the previous article, when it's finished. Every part of the original article was seriously suspect for lack of sources and oversight. It was (and remains) full of dubious and erroneous names, although I've also been updating and revising it as I proceed on this article, just to maintain consistency. This may take a while, though. It's a big project, and I haven't been able to work on it recently. I'll try to get back to it soon. P Aculeius (talk) 14:03, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

Sabine gentes

Claudia (gens), Aemilia (gens), Veturia (gens), Sertoria (gens), Curtius (gens), Titia (gens) ?, Valerius, Pompilia (gens), Pomponia (gens), Calpurnia (gens), Maria (gens) ?, Lollia (gens) ?, Fabia (gens) ? Böri (talk) 12:00, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

This article is a list, collecting gentes of all origins. It's impossible to provide a definitive list of gentes that were of Sabine, Etruscan, Samnite, or other origin, because there's no certainty in many cases, even for some of the major families. Trying to sort out which gentes were or weren't Sabine is beyond the scope of this article, although it might be appropriate as a section about the Sabines. Other origins could be discussed in the proper articles. P Aculeius (talk) 03:50, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

Etruscan gentes

Caecina, Cilnia, Caesennia, Licinia, Lucretia, Herminia, Lartia, Popilii, Tarquinii, Manlii, Postumii, Menenii, Veturii, Verginii, Aequlii, Aternii, Romilii, Tarquitii, Canuleii, Laetorii, Maecilii, Aebutii, Aburii, Campatii, Egnatii, Nigidii, Fulcinii, Saenii, Ancharii, Martii, Arminii, Petronii, Vibii, Afinii, Betui, Volcacii, Seii, Vicirii, Salvii ; What else? Böri (talk) 12:01, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

See above reply. P Aculeius (talk) 03:50, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

Tanusia

Was there not a gens Tanusia? Vince Calegon 23:52, 21 July 2017 (UTC)

I don't know. There may have been, but it wasn't one of the major families during the Republic, the only period for which gentes are easy to define and follow. I may run across it when I get to the T's, but I need to finish the P's, Q's, R's, and S's first. P Aculeius (talk) 02:22, 22 July 2017 (UTC)

Patrician gentes

Would it be possible to mention patrician gentes in the list? Perhaps by putting them in bold (or with a *) -- at least for those that were indisputably patrician. It shouldn't take too much work and would add a plus to the list.T8612 (talk) 02:47, 8 April 2018 (UTC)

It's often unclear which these were, and nearly all patrician gentes had plebeian branches as well, so deciding which to include would be difficult. There's a serviceable list under the article on patricians, although I mean to overhaul both that article and the list in it eventually, as I've read a fair amount on the topic since the last major revision, and I'm sure I could do a better job now. On the whole, I'd prefer to leave this list uncomplicated, and focus on distinguishing the two orders in that article instead. P Aculeius (talk) 04:01, 8 April 2018 (UTC)

It's a bit unwieldy having 511 gentes in alphabetical order. It's a shame they can't be ordered in other ways too, e.g. wealth and power. But this comment, I realise, reflects my ignorance more than it reflects any problem with the page, since elsewhere you point out the lack of precise knowledge about the maiores and the minores. Perhaps something a bit fuller on the maiores among the 511, or perhaps that info exists somewhere already. Vince Calegon (talk) 10:52, 14 August 2018 (UTC)

Decitia

The gens Decitia is recorded on a Samnites tabletwritten in a Latin way: Lucius Decitius Maraei f.Lerong Lin (talk) 08:31, 6 December 2020 (UTC)

endings

The paragraph about endings typical of different peoples provoked me to make this list alphabetized by backward spelling.

list of gentes by endings

Peducaea Annaea Poppaea Servaea Traia Staia Fabia Baebia Trebia Vibia Albia Orbia Volcacia Taracia Accia Iccia Occia Maccia Paccia Stlaccia Seccia Triccia Duccia Tuccia Decia Caecia Maecia Raecia Precia Trebicia Orbicia Urbicia Caedicia Tudicia Cornificia Fuficia Glicia Publicia Selicia Silicia Bellicia Simplicia Numicia Anicia Tanicia Minicia Sinicia Vinicia Sulpicia Fabricia Umbricia Victricia Castricia Vestricia Crassicia Septicia Desticia Tuticia Patulcia Plancia Cincia Juncia Marcia Mamercia Porcia Turcia Volturcia Oscia Priscia Roscia Luscia Lucia Mucia Faucia Sabucia Albucia Viducia Genucia Minucia Erucia Betucia Titucia Fadia Tadia Pedia Tedia Vedia Popaedia Scoedia Spedia Titedia Truttedia Suedia Didia Sabidia Vibidia Pacidia Placidia Istacidia Decidia Falcidia Alfidia Orfidia Corfidia Aufidia Fufidia Nigidia Tigidia Nymphidia Calidia Ummidia Canidia Minidia Epidia Lepidia Popidia Oppidia Viridia Floridia Nasidia Pasidia Varisidia Considia Hosidia Petrosidia Opsidia Tursidia Classidia Mussidia Tussidia Gratidia Lentidia Ventidia Pontidia Sotidia Tettidia Avidia Ovidia Salvidia Helvidia Blandia Secundia Verecundia Jucundia Modia Cordia Iasdia Claudia Abudia Ampudia Heia Seia Teia Cocceia Lucceia Aufeia Saufeia Velleia Accoleia Flavoleia Rabuleia Burbuleia Bucculeia Articuleia Aurunculeia Proculeia Plaguleia Septimuleia Canuleia Venuleia Herennuleia Nunnuleia Appuleia Ceppuleia Farsuleia Egnatuleia Pantuleia Hirtuleia Pactumeia Tineia Arpineia Anneia Pompeia Tarpeia Cicereia Crepereia Loreia Petreia Opetreia Urseia Ateia Iteia Steia Fonteia Carteia Insteia Septueia Alfia Orfia Fufia Rufia Magia Eggia Sergia Nicomachia Orchia Talia Aelia Velia Caelia Laelia Maelia Rusticelia Cornelia Coelia Cloelia Aurelia Turselia Poetelia Pilia Silia Umbilia Orbilia Acilia Icilia Pacilia Racilia Otacilia Vecilia Caecilia Maecilia Praecilia Procilia Tuscilia Lucilia Scandilia Ofilia Egilia Vigilia Vergilia Publilia Mamilia Aemilia Romilia Manilia Pompilia Turpilia Rupilia Egrilia Spurilia Opsilia Atilia Utilia Catilia Statilia Quinctilia Metilia Vetilia Laetilia Cantilia Terentilia Pontilia Curtilia Vistilia Hostilia Mutilia Rutilia Tutilia Tarutilia Sextilia Duilia Suilia Avilia Carvilia Servilia Ollia Gallia Iallia Mallia Stallia Bellia Dellia Gellia Sellia Obellia Sabellia Trebellia Rubellia Socellia Tigellia Tremellia Opellia Spellia Palpellia Arellia Caerellia Asellia Caesellia Visellia Stellia Satellia Vitellia Suellia Novellia Dillia Tillia Villia Popillia Petillia Aquillia Lollia Pollia Sollia Rullia Tullia Vibullia Sepullia Turullia Manlia Foslia Aulia Julia Vulia Segulia Decimia Opimia Septimia Maximia Rammia Sammia Memmia Remmia Mummia Nummia Firmia Durmia Postumia Cania Jania Rania Trebania Albania Urbania Laecania Coruncania Pedania Fundania Ofania Gegania Fidiculania Urgulania Romania Grania Orania Verania Afrania Venafrania Thorania Turrania Vipsania Tussania Titania Caristania Menia Faenia Laenia Maenia Saenia Vibenia Tuscenia Menenia Lafrenia Vorenia Stenia Centenia Tarrutenia Servenia Ignia Minia Vinia Gabinia Sabinia Albinia Urbinia Caecinia Licinia Sicinia Ticinia Simplicinia Fulcinia Mescinia Aedinia Secundinia Surdinia Afinia Safinia Amafinia Nerfinia Rufinia Reginia Longinia Verginia Plinia Faminia Flaminia Geminia Pleminia Cominia Arminia Herminia Caninia Papinia Varinia Macrinia Quirinia Victorinia Matrinia Tetrinia Castrinia Asinia Rasinia Cossinia Cusinia Atinia Latinia Matinia Vatinia Oclatinia Statinia Titinia Scantinia Martinia Quartinia Tertinia Stertinia Prastinia Festinia Justinia Tutinia Aquinia Sanquinia Tarquinia Ovinia Lavinia Flavinia Scaevinia Livinia Urvinia Cilnia Ogulnia Volumnia Annia Ennia Fannia Rennia Sennia Percennia Pescennia Cupiennia Arennia Herennia Nasennia Caesennia Tapsennia Ninnia Pinnia Sinnia Anquirinnia Spurinnia Nonia Rabonia Strabonia Trebonia Scribonia Umbonia Turbonia Aconia Paconia Praeconia Voconia Asconia Cosconia Hordeonia Ragonia Gargonia Ceionia Boionia Balonia Salonia Milonia Lemonia Numonia Tannonia Aponia Lamponia Pomponia Coponia Laronia Taronia Abronia Floronia Apronia Sempronia Acerronia Petronia Caetronia Obultronia Autronia Duronia Vesonia Caesonia Ausonia Rusonia Suetonia Critonia Antonia Favonia Flavonia Cervonia Tifernia Perpernia Aternia Opiternia Furnia Liburnia Calpurnia Titurnia Vesnia Junia Munia Sepunia Papia Nipia Ulpia Ampia Tampia Appia Eppia Oppia Seppia Cispia Cuspia Pupia Caria Maria Saria Taria Varia Ligaria Ancharia Triaria Plaria Pinaria Caeparia Scutaria Babria Umbria Rubria Subria Neria Seria Laberia Staberia Laceria Faleria Galeria Valeria Numeria Casperia Hateria Severia Rufria Viria Rabiria Viciria Papiria Agoria Thoria Floria Statoria Actoria Victoria Laetoria Plaetoria Numitoria Saltoria Artoria Sertoria Ostoria Vestoria Tutoria Clutoria Arria Barria Verria Hirria Murria Atria Satria Mestria Auria Curia Furia Luria Turia Tauria Aburia Palfuria Spuria Ituria Saturia Veturia Tituria Audasia Caepasia Vitrasia Peltrasia Vequasia Resia Caesia Mimesia Numisia Apisia Carisia Calvisia Hortensia Consia Sosia Ambrosia Opsia Persia Cassia Gessia Messia Blossia Lusia Trausia Volusia Tanusia Dexsia Atia Catia Matia Tatia Trebatia Albatia Barbatia Sedatia Curiatia Oclatia Amatia Maenatia Maecenatia Egnatia Minatia Fulginatia Carpinatia Carrinatia Sornatia Munatia Campatia Gratia Ocratia Neratia Horatia Statia Lutatia Allectia Quinctia Condetia Lucretia Caesetia Titia Digitia Domitia Betitia Potitia Equitia Tarquitia Saltia Antia Bantia Cantia Scantia Sentia Terentia Pisentia Consentia Cluentia Balventia Calventia Juventia Pontia Arruntia Cotia Scaptia Lartia Quartia Tertia Libertia Propertia Hirtia Curtia Tiburtia Cestia Sestia Antistia Hostia Justia Mustia Rustia Sallustia Apustia Attia Sattia Tattia Splattia Mettia Tettia Vettia Suettia Sittia Tittia Cottia Bruttia Mutia Tutia Nautia Plautia Aebutia Acutia Cremutia Canutia Tarutia Cossutia Sextia Avia Bavia Gavia Flavia Calavia Travia Octavia Maevia Naevia Scaevia Livia Orcivia Elvia Salvia Helvia Silvia Fulvia Novia Servia Pacuvia Cluvia Vitruvia Axia Traula Tebana Norbana Tuticana Aviana Trebulana Vipstana Albinovana Fadena Alfena Labiena Luciena Sibidiena Nasidiena Pasidiena Salvidiena Saliena Betiliena Pontiliena Alliena Belliena Trebelliena Seppiena Burriena Satriena Passiena Messiena Catiena Matiena Tettiena Aviena Salviena Sariolena Tariolena Javolena Carfulena Postumulena Caesulena Titulena Varena Umbrena Rubrena Volusena Octavena Arrecina Pomptina Volusenna Calesterna Betua Verres

—Tamfang (talk) 19:37, 28 January 2023 (UTC)

Well, that's interesting, but not very searchable! Aside from the fact that our sources only speak of probabilities—not bright-line rules, although I think that Etruscan -na is definitive—the majority of gentes of non-Latin origin will have had Latinized names, however—and in some cases the advice about the nomen only applies to the masculine form of the nomen, not the feminine, which is generally used for gentes.

When I started this project, I didn't know how to present the names of gentes with Etruscan names, like "Maecenas" or "Perperna", supposing them to identical with their gentilicia. But with experience comes knowledge—gentes are invariably feminine, and their names must agree in gender. The nomina of women belonging to these families provide the answers: "Maecenatia", "Perpernia", which look Latin in orthography, although their roots are Etruscan. Epigraphy shows us the stem and feminine form, although these and others like them show that most such names will take normal Latin forms, preserving the original, non-Latin version (if at all) as the masculine. I should probably revise the section about endings to reflect this; it was written before this discrepancy became apparent. P Aculeius (talk) 13:38, 14 December 2023 (UTC)

Unsourced entries

There is a large number of entries in this list which are unsourced and red linked. I have checked a significant sample of them, and:

• I was not able to find any reliable source anywhere to support any of them.
• Some of them appear to be fantasy Roman names, posted on the kinds of web sites where people play around with such fantasies.
• Some of them do not appear anywhere apart from Wikipedia, as far as I could find, while some others appear only on Wikipedia and other sites which have copied from Wikipedia.
• Some of them are Latin or pseudo Latin words, such as names of modern biological taxa, but not ancient Roman names.
• Some of them, from the editing history of the people who posted them, are unambiguously vandalism.
• A very small number of them were Roman names, but nomina or cognomina, not gentes.

I intend to remove them from the article. It is, of course, possible that there are some names here for which suitable sources can be found, in which case anyone who can find such sources can restore them. However, for the benefit of any new editor who reads this, and who is not familiar with Wikipedia policies, I emphasise that Wikipedia policy is that content removed from an article because of a lack of citation to a reliable source must not be restored without providing such a citation. JBW (talk) 19:38, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

Unless someone's managed to sneak in names without my noticing—and that's unlikely as I check my watchlist daily—all of the names on this list can be verified through encyclopedic or epigraphic resources, such as the DGRBM, PIR, PW, or the Clauss-Slaby Datenbank (which indexes entries from CIL, AE, and many other resources; if you aren't familiar with that, it's your go-to on obscure Roman nomina). As for some of the other bullet points:

• There are no fantasy names here, unless someone sneaked one in when I wasn't looking. If a name appears on a fantasy site, it was probably taken from here, not the other way around. I went through the entire list a few years ago and pruned out any entries I couldn't corroborate from at least epigraphic sources. Only redlinks should be affected; linked articles already contain documentation showing where each entry came from (some older articles don't have exhaustive sources for entries that link to articles about individual persons; the idea was that there would be too many sources to list, and they'd all be in the linked articles).
• Many, perhaps most Roman nomina were derived from other names, including words that were or likely were used as cognomina at an earlier stage. There is no "pseudo-Latin", except to the extent that some names of Etruscan, Sabine, or other Italic origins may have been Latinized in Roman times. The reason that many share their names with biological taxa is that biologists seem to have trawled Roman history and perhaps epigraphic sources, such as CIL, for names to use for genera of spiders, beetles, fish, etc. In a number of instances, redirects created for bare nomina were later turned into or re-redirected to articles about taxa that had not yet been written when the redirects were created.
• I'd like to know which ones you think are "unambiguously vandalism". As I said, I keep this on my watchlist, and scrutinize every additional entry; if something can't be verified using encyclopedic or epigraphic sources, I revert it. What you might have seen is vandals adding names that were subsequently deleted, like the entry today for "Vulpesya" or whatever, which is obviously inauthentic—and follows by a day or two the same IP editor changing "Foslia" to "Foxlia". Since "Vulpes" is Latin for "Fox", it was hard to miss that. But I would have checked it even if it weren't obvious hoax vandalism.
• I don't know what kind of distinction you're drawing between "nomina" and "gentes". The nomen gentilicium was the defining characteristic of a gens; essentially all Roman nomina represented gentes. There are no cognomina in this list; possibly a handful of names could be used as either a nomen or a cognomen, but here we can be fairly certain that each entry is a gentilicium, because nearly all of them follow the standard orthographic form of nomina, which was rarely used for cognomina, and all of them are known from examples where they are immediately preceded by praenomina.

Removing the contents of this article without having investigated the issues properly would be a serious problem. As this is a list article, you would need to check that the individual entries that are already linked don't have documentation. The redlinks have been checked; most of them were added after they were verified, in the expectation that articles would be created later. I haven't done that for a while, however, because I realized that new articles created with those redlinks might be created without showing up on my watchlist. But as I could verify them, there shouldn't be any that don't belong at all.

If I run across one that I don't think can support an article, I'll delete it—or move it to another place where it can at least be supported by epigraphic sources. But this isn't a BLP article: it isn't likely to have contentious claims, and just because the list isn't full of citations doesn't mean that the information isn't verifiable. Just as we don't delete articles because their sources are inadequate, we don't delete lists of hundreds of linked articles because each one doesn't have a separate citation. If a citation is needed, it can be added, but this list is generally only for those gentilicia that either do have a linked article with citations, or which can be expected to at some point in the future. They don't need to have hundreds of citations here if the linked articles are properly documented. P Aculeius (talk) 21:22, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

Everything you say about the names may be true about most of them, in which case it should be possible to provide reliable sources for them. You say that you "could verify them"; if you mean you could verify hem from reliable sources then presumably you can provide those sources; if you don't mean that then we have nothing but the unsubstantiated word of Wikipedia editors as evidence. An example of a vandalism entry is "Vulpesya". I didn't count how many names I removed, but my guess is that "hundreds" is likely to be an exaggeration. I am puzzled by your remark "we don't delete articles because their sources are inadequate"; that is precisely the reason for deletion in the substantial majority of cases where an AfD closes as "delete". You say "They don't need to have hundreds of citations here if the linked articles are properly documented", but the starting point of what I said above is that there are no linked articles. JBW (talk) 22:21, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

Nearly all of the names are linked; you may be referring exclusively to the redlinks, which make up only a fraction of all the names. But those only exist as reminders to create articles under those titles in the future. At times I've worked to clear all the redlinks, and had done so down to the letter 'S' a year or two ago, then someone else added more redlinks. I checked them all and deleted any that didn't check out, but I don't intend to cite redlinks, and then delete the citations when they actually go somewhere; when the articles are created, the documentation will be available by clicking on them.

WP:BEFORE clearly states that articles should be deleted not because their sources are inadequate, but because sufficient sources cannot be located to support them even with a reasonable effort to find them. A nomination that says only, "this article has no sources" or "this article needs many more sources" should fail if the nominator doesn't first make a reasonable effort to locate sources that would support the article. But in this case, that would create unnecessary work, because all of the sources would be deleted as the redlinks are turned into articles. You're correct that "Vulpesya" was vandalism—which is why I deleted it twice today, and its predecessor "Foxlia" a day or two ago. This article is very carefully patrolled! P Aculeius (talk) 22:52, 5 December 2023 (UTC)