Talk:List of LGBT characters in animation and graphic art

Merge

This article already covers everything in the other articles. There is no need for separate pages. JDDJS (talk) 16:08, 26 April 2014 (UTC)

• support the merge, no need for such duplication. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 20:14, 5 May 2014 (UTC)

@JDDJS: Seems to be no objection to this merge. Please feel free to do it! EvergreenFir (talk) 21:08, 14 May 2014 (UTC)

Proposed change

I have started a discussion of a proposed change to this and similar pages that can be found on the LGBT Studies Project talk page. In short, I am proposing to expand the scope of the page from solely "gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgendered" to "non-heterosexual or non-cisgender". Please join the conversation and comment here. Cheers! EvergreenFir (talk) 21:09, 14 May 2014 (UTC)

Samurai Flamenco

Mari Maya should be added as bisexual character, she is attracted to Goto Hidenori and is in an open relationship with Moe Morita. Moe Morita should be listed as a lesbian, as she only shows interest in Mari Maya, and to Mizuki Mizawa to some degree.

Hazama Masayoshi and Goto Hidenori are confirmed to be living together in Goto's apartment for six months already during the series epilogue in the manga "Another Days". Masayoshi says that he and Goto are 同棲 (cohabiting, couple specific) instead of 同居 (cohabiting, general). Mizuki tells him to not say 同棲, but Masayoshi it's just confused by her reaction. Masayoshi during the series confirmed that he never liked a girl, and during his marriage proposal to Goto Hidenori he says "物凄く真面目です" (monosugoku majime desu, "I’m really (literally earth-shattering; staggering; to a very great extent) serious about this". Goto Hidenori had a girlfriend. I think Hazama Masayoshi should be added as a gay character, and Goto Hidenori as a bisexual.187.155.45.40 (talk) 22:16, 4 June 2014 (UTC)

The characters married in the Mobage game. Masayoshi's card is called "June Bride". Goto and him repeated the dialogue from episode 22 in the voice clip attached.187.155.159.111 (talk) 09:47, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

(I agree with this. Mari, Moe, Goto, and Masayoshi are all canonically LGBT characters.)

No. 6

Should both Shion and Nezumi not be added? And, for that matter, Inukashi, as an agender or genderfluid or genderqueer character?

Princess Jellyfish

Also Princess Jellyfish is a crossdresser and gender queer anime. In the anime Shangri-La one of two main characters, Momoko is a trans-woman who, along with other drag and trans characters on the show, talk of their former drag/trans nightclub "The Tropical Fish" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.3.176.110 (talk) 18:24, 31 July 2016 (UTC)

Inaccuracies

I removed a few incorrect things on here. Sayaka Miki from Madoka never actually has a relationship with Kyoko and thus might not be bisexual, and Ryuko and Mako from Kill la Kill have unknown sexualities but are often confused as lesbians because they went on a "date" at the end of the series(though it was a platonic 'girl's night out'-esc date as seen by the credits), and Grell from Kuroshitsuji was meant to be a drag queen according to the creator, who uses Japanese slang for drag queens when talking about what his personality is. We should make sure that people are not editing the wiki to include their favorite ships or putting any gender-controversial character as 'transgender.' — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:D:3800:B8E:90B0:F711:E3E5:8F04 (talk) 02:18, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

I made an account and went through the page again. Someone re-added Grell, and Princess Bubblegum and Marceline from Adventure Time were added with a citation led to a deleted article. Upon some research, I found another source, which makes it clear that the actor was not confirming their sexualities and then he was only joking about "all that creepy fanart." — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hanhange (talk • contribs) 01:28, 25 December 2014 (UTC)

References

One Piece

Listing Iva and Bentham as gay is incorrect. Both are referred to as the word "Okama" in the Japanese version, which is a slang term for transgender individuals. In addition, both are incredibly gender fluid and make statements of being beyond the binary presented to them or male and female at once, respectively. Iva's power is even involves the power to change sex at will and is based on Tim Curry from Rocky Horror Picture Show, and Bentham can change appearance. 208.102.72.184 (talk) 02:57, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

Anthy Himemiya

Although Anthy Himemiya, from Revolutionary Girl Utena, has been shown in relationships with both females and males, a major part of the plot is that she does not have a choice in the matter. Anthy is forcibly engaged to whoever is the current champion of the duels, and another character, Akio, also has control over her, so the only relationship that Anthy actually willingly goes into would be with Utena. Therefore I don't know if it is entirely accurate to list her as bisexual, given the plot. Araleiwakura (talk) 07:46, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

I meant that she would be listed as a lesbian, not removed. Also, the characters in Utena are generally non-ambiguous regarding their status as bi. Touga Kiryuu, just to give an example, is regularly seen rolling around shirtless on cars/beds/etc. with other males. I don't see why citations would be needed for something that is plainly evident in the show and not at all needing an external source to confirm - it's like asking for a citation that Touga has red hair, or is named Touga, when those are just extremely basic facts about his character. As is his being bi. Additionally, this implies that everyone is assumed to be straight unless proven otherwise, but straight is not a default. Araleiwakura (talk) 05:48, 27 December 2014 (UTC)

red hair can only mean red hair. rolling around shirtless with someone can mean any number of things , of which "character is bi/sexually attracted to them" is only one of many. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 06:23, 27 December 2014 (UTC)

Um, I think the intention of the authors is very obvious, but it was just an example. The whole show is filled with stuff like this (Miki Kaoru is pursuing a romantic relationship with a female but also mentally pictures males suggestively, Akio Ohtori seduces numerous characters regardless of gender, etc.) If you need anything even more obvious than that, Anthy and Utena literally kiss in the second credits sequence, and then in the movie they kiss while naked. But I don't really need to go that far to prove that the show operates under very obvious and very present "almost everyone is bi" rules. Araleiwakura (talk) 06:58, 27 December 2014 (UTC)

That you can mind read the creators minds is an amazing accomplishment, but not one that will satisfy Wikipedia's content requirements. We require verification in reliably published sources. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 17:56, 27 December 2014 (UTC)

You don't have to read the creators minds to see that girls kissing = they are not straight. Araleiwakura (talk) 20:44, 27 December 2014 (UTC)

No, two girls kissing is two girls kissing. Thats it. Interpreting anything beyond that is not something we can do. it would require a reliable source to make the analysis of whether it actually is indicative of an orientation or just kissing. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 20:50, 27 December 2014 (UTC)

Except this extremely minor level of "interpretation" is something that Wikipedia already does extensively in other contexts. Go browse any page for fiction on here - even Revolutionary Girl Utena's - and concepts like characters being in love with eachother are never cited. In fact, the relationships that usually get mentioned are far, far less obvious than ones like Utena and Anthy, yet are objectively stated as attractions. Literally all stories are going to be technically open to some degree of interpretation, so where are you supposed to stop? Can you state any fact about fiction and be sure it's true? If we're taking for granted that, say, a character's using their "real" name, why wouldn't we take for granted that two girls kissing = not straight girls? If there's no reason to suspect otherwise, then why would you? I get a very distinct impression that the only reason this is an issue is because of the subject matter. Araleiwakura (talk) 22:18, 27 December 2014 (UTC)

That other articles include inappropriate content is not a reason to spread those errors here. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 23:53, 28 December 2014 (UTC)

If you want "proof", there are interviews from the creators stating that they are in love. I will add them to list. Thanks for literally saying kissing= gal pals though, that's super cute and not at all homophobic of you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.177.239.86 (talk) 23:10, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

I believe you are correct, but sources are needed. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 23:17, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

Sorry, I was in the process of getting those and posted too soon. Here are several interviews. In this DVD commentary, the series director, Kunihiko Ikuhara, talks about how he struggled with including strong hints to Anthy and Utena's queer relationship in the series since the manga artist he was working on was against it. He goes on and says he snuck it in anyway(ctrl f "gay" to find the specific convo). He mentions gay people liking the series for its queer themes. In another DVD commentary, he says they were together in the movie and "love love" and says Utena turning into a car and Anthy driving her was meant to be a reference to how guys name their cars after their girlfriends in America (search "Go Love"). . Here's an interview where he describes Utena as having elements of the yuri genre (which means girl-on-girl love). He specifically cites Utena and Anthy's relationship as proof of this. (search "yuri") . I can go on. Plus they french kissed and pledged to spend their lives together in the movie, so there's that.24.177.239.86 (talk) 23:36, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

Stop removing Utena and Anthy. The sources I gave were accurate transcriptions of DVD commentary and a translation of a published article. They are already "published". If you would like to help me in citing the DVD commentary directly, you can give me advice, but I will continue to restore for as long as you do. Why is Autostraddle a less reliable source than the Huffington Post? It is a published news organization. Let me guess, is it because it's a queer, feminist organization?

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Nevermore999 (talk • contribs) 03:28, 6 August 2015 (UTC) 

There, I included DVD citations. I'm sure you'll find some thinly-veiled homophobic reason to dispute that, I look forward to you demanding I do the citation in blood, or that it won't credible until Kunihiko Ikuhara comes to your house and shouts "GAY" into your ear. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nevermore999 (talk • contribs) 04:23, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

Maybe add a 'disputed' section?

I think it might be worth adding a section for characters who are uncertain but noteworthy. Mr/Mrs. Garrison from South Park, for example. It'll help filter out some of the characters that keep being added but are not actually confirmed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hanhange (talk • contribs) 01:18, 25 December 2014 (UTC)

probably not. nothing should be included that does not have at a minimum has a reliable source which makes a specific identification that the item belongs on the list (preferably, including some type of analysis or commentary on how / why the item being on this list is relevant in the real world or at least to the storyline. ) WP:IINFO / WP:OR / WP:LISTCRUFT . Where there are reliable sources that contradict the source identifying a reason for inclusion then we should also include the sources noting the dispute.-- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 15:53, 25 December 2014 (UTC)

But there needs to be some kind of counter to people constantly editing in characters that are not confirmed. This page in particular is rampant with fans putting in their own opinions and I think we need to be more cautious of this. And I don't want to cut this list down to a handful of individuals, but the majority of the people listed on here seem to just be anime characters fans added and didn't bother to give a description of. Also, it seems people are constantly trying to add characters that are still under dispute. For example, the Adventure Time ship, 'Bubbline'- There is no romance between them in the show, the creator denies it, and Cartoon Network itself refused to allow a romance to happen. But because a voice actor joked about it and an artist on the show used to draw lots of fanart of it, people keep adding it to the page. It seems like it's simply less of a problem to add a 'disputed' section to separate it from the 100% confirmed characters, rather than having to constantly delete ones that keep being added by fans.Hanhange (talk) 19:24, 25 December 2014 (UTC)

That is what verification in a reliable source means. Nothing should be added without a citation to a source that confirms an LGBT identity. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 12:07, 26 December 2014 (UTC)

Bubbline was confirmed completely non-jokingly... Several members of the crew were there and directly relayed a conversation they had with the creator, as well as the exact legal reasons as to why Cartoon Network can't show it. Araleiwakura (talk) 06:33, 26 December 2014 (UTC)

You will need to provide a reliably published source with a reputation for fact checking and editorial oversight that verifies the conversation. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 12:07, 26 December 2014 (UTC)

Oraganisation

I think we should organise this alphabetically by show and then by character name so it's easier for people to find what they're looking for. I started working on it a bit, but it'd be nice to have some help. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.218.181.190 (talk) 23:57, 28 December 2014 (UTC)

given that we have names like "Mr. Herbert/Mrs. Janet Garrison" and "Gobber the Belch", i am not really sure how you would alphabetize them? and that's what the sort buttons are for. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 02:24, 29 December 2014 (UTC)

The unsourced list

The last version of the unsourced list is [1] . A previous version that may contain even more [2].

Based on the appearance that people think it is OK to add new unsourced content if they include the , I have removed all the unsourced claims to provide a better example - if people want to include something, they need to provide a source. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 20:32, 31 December 2014 (UTC)

Potential sources

Dropping these here for later use .-- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 13:06, 1 January 2015 (UTC)

• Gerstner, David A. (2012-09-10). Routledge International Encyclopedia of Queer Culture. Routledge. pp. 245–. ISBN 9781136761812. Retrieved 1 January 2015.

Duplicative list

Per the discussion Talk:List_of_animated_television_programs_with_LGBT_characters#Merger, this list is of specific characters that are notable enough for their own article. Hence most of the content here is improper and should be migrated to the other list and reoriented to be about the characters in the show. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 21:19, 16 January 2015 (UTC)

Old List previously seen in main article

Characters LGBT:

Pearl Of Steven Universe, 
Ruby Of Steven Universe,
Sapphire Of Steven Universe,
Bubbles Of PowerPuff Girls,
Him Of PowerPuff Girls,
Marceline Of Adventure Time,
Gladiador Ghosts Of Adventure Time,
Pinkie Pie Of South Park,
Sr.Garrison Of South Park,
Haruka Of Sailor Moon,
Michuru Of Sailor Moon,

Needs reliable sources. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 22:37, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

Previous AFD

it looks like the previous AFD on this subject resulted in a finding that only characters that are independently notable should be on this list: if the character doesnt have a stand alone article, it doenst make the grade for this list. Other characters that have sources but not stand alone articles should be migrated to List of animated television programs with LGBT characters.

If there is no opposition to implementing the previously agreed upon status, I will start the migration in a couple of weeks. If there is, we can do an RfC or something. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 22:42, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

Redundancy and inconsistency

Wiccan and Hulkling are in the same entry. On the other hand, characters like Princess Bubblegum and Marceline, Ruby and Sapphire etc. have separate entries and a lot of text that is basically the same thing repeated. Should we fix this ? --Killuminator (talk) 22:28, 15 April 2016 (UTC)