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Unverified claims

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Wikipedia policies require that all content is verifiable using reliable sources. In the case of living people this is of particular importance. There is a subsidiary point of relevance also, which relates specifically to lists of people.

The combined effect of these various policies in the context of this article is that every entry needs either to link to an existing Wikipedia article which itself contains verifiable information that the subject matter is/was a member of the Khatri community or needs to have suitable citations (ideally, more than one) to enable verifiability. There is nothing to stop both a link and a citation being provided, but the lack of both is definitely going to result in removal.

I do realise that there may be some cultural issues involved in this and the systemic bias essay refers to some of these. Again in the context of this article, the most obvious one is where a particular last name is commonly associated with a particular caste/community. Unfortunately, it is the case that such last names are not exclusively associated with a group and therefore mere possession of the name does not provide sufficient verifiability. - Sitush (talk) 20:02, 23 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Indian Army Chiefs category under Military Section

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I have added the list of Indian Army Chiefs from Khatri caste.

Ref:"Chief of the Army Staff". Indian Army. Retrieved 2011-11-01 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Satya301 (talk • contribs) 09:52, 27 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I've removed them. No article generally means no mention in lists such as this and, worse, the official Indian Army sources rarely mention caste anyway. We'd need to see that source. - Sitush (talk) 10:35, 27 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
http://indianarmy.nic.in/Site/FormTemplete/frmTemp1PTC2C.aspx?MnId=oDh0T8OwkS94bMpSUEC5qQ==&ParentID=no1EyXv/1frtlrCSwDzk4Q==&flag=ME/QE+cjVT6HFH7fxoR5MQ== This official Indian Army source mentions the caste. I agree that list can be prepared in better way. As i am new to Wiki, still learning the ways to make tables.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chief_of_the_Army_Staff_(India)
Thsnk you. Satya301 (talk) 12:47, 27 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Don't worry about being new - we all have to start somewhere. And don't worry about tables here - a simple list would suffice. However, I cannot find a mention of "Khatri" in the external link that you give above (it does mention Rajput but that is not enough). We also cannot rely on what other Wikipedia articles say (see WP:CIRCULAR). Finally, you need to be aware of User:Sitush/Common#Castelists - mentions of caste are subject to pretty strict requirements. - Sitush (talk) 12:55, 27 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Malik, Vij, Marwah, Kapoor, Malhotra and Thapar are Khatri castes. There is no separate regiment for Khatris in Indian Army.

One can easily confirm them by typing on Google.

Some sources: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Appendix:Indian_surnames_(Khatri)

http://www.sikhcastes.com/sikh-caste-names/khatri-subcasrtes

As a local, I know these castes very well. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Satya301 (talk • contribs) 13:06, 27 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Did you read the links in my reply above? Last names are not verification of caste as far as Wikipedia is concerned. - Sitush (talk) 13:16, 27 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Alright, there is no big deal in getting the reference for khatri origin for each of them. Though, you may also google their name, mentioning about their khatri orogin. But, if you want me to do so, I will provide you with the list of references by next week. i am very busy in writing another book. Satya301 (talk) 13:33, 27 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Someone else mentioning their Khatri origin is unlikely to be good enough, especially if they are still alive. We need something that demonstrates the people self-identify as Khatris, just as we do for other claimed caste affiliations. As a general rule, caste plays no part in a person's notability and thus is usually irrelevant anyway - puffery and little else. - Sitush (talk) 13:49, 27 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I really appreciate the last line. I also believe in this, but the way articles are written here (even article on Khatris) with mention of mixed caste of low-ritual status, born of the union of Kshatriya mothers and Shudra fathers, mixed pratiloma caste of low ritual status, but he suggested that Khatris could be a mixed caste born of Kshatriya fathers and Brahmin mothers Are we animals??? where we are suggesting hybrids and so on. We are humans, such lines should not have been used in any of these article at first place, as these lines narrating that we get lower quality of human beings if one go out of their caste, is ridiculous, and is provoking for any community. There is no scientific basis of it. And to be honest, i see a racist in you as well, who is classifying people as trading class or schedule class or Rajputs or kshatriya (and then asking for references). A new born has no caste, he/she believes in what he/she is told to believe.
And caste is nothing on which anyone should feel proud or shamed, as he has not decided it for himself.
I believe such things should not be said. No body has right to tell other person that you are of lower status (in written or verbal). There are so many beautiful things about each of us, i think one should concentrate on beautiful things rather criticizing or naming them as lower status.
The way you write articles, i dont think so, content written above is going to change anything in you. i will provide you with the said references by next week as i am really going out of time.
Thank you. Satya301 (talk) 14:35, 27 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Satya, if you start calling me racist then you'll soon find yourself blocked for making personal attacks. My contributions have been very closely scrutinised by the community on numerous occasions (for example, at WP:ANI) and I am demonstrably following Wikipedia's policies with regard to such things as verifiability, reliable sources, weight, neutrality and what is permissible in biographies of living people. I know that you are new here and are thus far from being completely aware of how we work but, please, don't go labelling me like that. I'm happy to assist you in finding your way around Wikipedia and I'm happy to make an attempt to improve this article provided that we all comply with the policies etc. - Sitush (talk) 14:48, 27 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]


hmmm, i wrote so many things, but the word that you picked up is racist, and self praise (like you did) is also expected in most of the cases. i dont blame you, it is human nature. Now, you can think of what is happening in articles where author is writing about lower status and mixed breeds and so on. i am very sorry that i called you this way. I apologise for every statement written above. I am also hopeful that we not only reach to some conclusion but also apply them to benefit the readers without provoking anybody unnecessarily. Anyway, i left you a cup of coffee on your talk page, yesterday. Now we will discuss things next year only. Best wishes for New Year: Satya301 (talk) 15:23, 27 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Gotras

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The article clearly starts Following is a list of notable members of the Khatri community in India. It is not intended to be a list of gotras. Even if it was, we do not use caste-affiliated websites etc. - Sitush (talk) 14:39, 30 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

April 2021 - IPs removing content

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@IPs, the Khatri lineage of Dewan Mokham Chand part is clearly sourced as can be seen in A History Of The Sikhs Vol. 1 - page 216 and Rediscovery of India, The: A New Subcontinent page 153. Pinging @Abh9850: who added/updated the content for clarification as well. - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 18:31, 8 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Kapil Dev

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The mention of caste needs self-identification in a WP:BLP – see here for details – which is missing in the case of Kapil Dev. Although this is in itself a sufficient reason to remove the name from this list, I did search about his caste. There are a large amount of scholarly as well as mainstream Indian news media sources about Kapil Dev's caste, and all of them unanimously mention him as Jat.[1][2][3][4][5][6][7][8][9] The only exception is Rajdeep Sardesai, who after mentioning him as Jat in a news article,[10] mentioned his parents as Khatri in a self-published book![11] BTW, he also mentioned Bishan Singh Bedi as Jat Sikh in that book![12] In any case, we use scholarly sources whenever possible (see WP:SOURCETYPES), and there are plenty of them in this case.[1][2][3][4]

References

References

  1. ^ a b Majumdar, Boria (2004). "Cricket in India: Representative Playing Field to Restrictive Preserve". In Mangan, J. A.; Ritchie, Andrew (eds.). Ethnicity, Sport, Identity: Struggles for Status. Routledge. p. 147. ISBN 978-0-7146-5574-1. N.Kapil Dev**: jat
  2. ^ a b Woodcock, John (2016) [2001]. "Kapil's Devil (1993)". In Guha, Ramachandra (ed.). The Picador Book of Cricket. Picador. ISBN 978-1-5098-4140-0. It would be wrong to see him as a typical Indian cricketer. He is anything but that. Coming from Punjab, he is taller and stronger than the average Indian. He is a Jat, a sect to which the Indian army looks for recruits. This influenced Kapil's developments as a cricketer in two crucial ways. It bestowed on him the build of a fast bowler, and gave him the height and power to drive a cricket ball as lustily as anyone ever did.
  3. ^ a b Anand, Sirivayan (2012). "Eating with our Fingers, Watching Hindi Cinema and Consuming Cricket". In Dixit, Kanak Mani (ed.). The Southasian Sensibility: A Himal Reader. SAGE Publications. p. 175. ISBN 978-81-321-1697-4. Besides, fast bowlers are not what India is known for, except for Kapil Dev, a meat-eating Jat.
  4. ^ a b Kesavan, Mukul (2010). Men in White: A Book of Cricket. Penguin Books. p. 173. ISBN 978-0-14-306659-0. Kapil Dev was the silver lining. This loose-limbed gawky Jat bowled fast and batted furiously.
  5. ^ Bhosle, Varsha (1 July 1999). "Mooh mein Ram-Ram, bagal mein chhoori". Rediff.com. Archived from the original on 22 October 1999. Kapil did his diplomatic, restrained bit initially, to the tune of all of us thinking about policies, etc. But there are limited ways of differently framing the same answer and, obviously, limits to the Jat's patience. Finally, he exploded, "It's all crap, it's rubbish! What's this nonsense!
  6. ^ Joshi, Ruchir (14 January 2015). "Caught and bowled by the Kapil - He: Hope you're not getting bored? We: No! it's hugely enjoyable. He: Yes, listening to this English!". The Telegraph. Archived from the original on 3 January 2022. The learning curve continues. Two captains, Bishen Singh Bedi who had a big heart, Sunil Gavaskar 'not such a big heart but big mind, big thinking, all the time', eyes and ears open, KD learns, grows. 'Culture yes, but you also need agriculture' and Indian cricket certainly does. Bombay over-shikshit arrogance meets canny Jat intelligence and that never-say-die, big north Indian heart.
  7. ^ Jha, Sanjay (5 March 2012). "Bleeding Blue". Tehelka. ProQuest 926140481. Thus, the dapper sophisticated Sunil Gavaskar from St Xavier's Mumbai had several confrontations with the country-bumpkin Jat, Kapil Dev who was fast acquiring expertise promoting Rapidex, a learn-English-quickly type book for dummies.
  8. ^ Kant, Aditya (14 February 2011). "When Kapil overshadowed Amitabh: CuppaMania ICC Cricket World Cup 2011". Daily News and Analysis. ProQuest 851498352. And in this backdrop, with hardly any live telecast or 24x7 news channels around, which would broadcast World Cup theme songs, the news that a lanky Jat from the adjoining Union Territory of Chandigarh was leading the Indian 11, was big enough to create ripples in our home town.
  9. ^ "Political role in BCCI: guess who started it all?". The Economic Times. 7 October 2004. Archived from the original on 10 January 2022. It was 1983. The Indian cricket team, led by the burly Jat from Haryana, Kapil Dev, had just stunned the cricketing world by beating what was then considered an unbeatable team-the mighty West Indians in the third edition of the World Cup. {{cite news}}: |archive-date= / |archive-url= timestamp mismatch; 10 January 2021 suggested (help)
  10. ^ Sardesai, Rajdeep (13 May 2011). "A level-playing field". Hindustan Times. Archived from the original on 8 December 2017. Perhaps, we now need to consider that the muscular Jats are built to wrestle or throw the discus (not to forget cricket too, blessed by the original Jat sporting icon, Kapil Dev Nikhanj, unarguably India's finest fast bowler, and now by Virender Sehwag, the most destructive opening batsman the country has produced).
  11. ^ Sardesai, Rajdeep (2017). Democracy's XI. Juggernaut Books. p. 132. ISBN 978-93-86228-48-2. Dev's parents, from a Punjabi Khatri business family, ...
  12. ^ Sardesai, Rajdeep (2017). Democracy's XI. Juggernaut Books. p. 80. ISBN 978-93-86228-48-2. It is no surprise that three of the four spinning greats were urban Brahmins and mostly vegetarian with the Jat Sikh Bedi the only exception.

- NitinMlk (talk) 20:24, 27 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Shikhar Dhawan & Abhinav Bindra

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This source was self-published by a blogger who will get you married for free after teaching you English for free! Similarly, this source is also self-published by someone named Gagandeep. I would have listed his achievements as well, but he didn't give any details about him, not even his full name. Anyway, such material from common people is not WP:RS. Note that I could not find any reliable source for Abhinav Bindra's caste, but Shikhar Dhawan's caste is mentioned as Jat in reliable sources.[1][2] Most importantly, self-identification is missing in both cases. So I will remove them from this list.

References

References

  1. ^ Ugra, Sharda (16 March 2013). "'I didn't feel I rushed things' - Dhawan". ESPNcricinfo. Archived from the original on 27 February 2022. Dhawan's nickname amongst his peers is Jaat-jee, which comes from his Jaat heritage.
  2. ^ Sharma, Aasheesh (12 June 2016). "How Sufi music helps Shikhar Dhawan find his groove". Hindustan Times. Archived from the original on 13 June 2016. If it wasn't for destiny, how could the Jatt-Sikh batsman from Janak Puri have ended up married to an Anglo-Indian kickboxing instructor from Melbourne?

- NitinMlk (talk) 21:03, 27 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Failing our consensus on self-identification for BLPs

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@NitinMlk: Hi, I believe a lot of entries of living persons, especially in the "Business" and "Bollywood" sections, are not as per our consensus on 'self-identification'. Would you kindly take care of them/remove them. Regards. - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 08:04, 28 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Fylindfotberserk, I have removed some BLP violations and unsourced entries. But, among other entries, I have yet to check the remaining entries of the Business and finance section. - NitinMlk (talk) 22:51, 28 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@NitinMlk: Thanks. I couldn't find another source for Sourendra Nath Kohli either. The Lists of Rajputs and the Lists of Jats are also in need of such cleanup I think. - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 08:26, 1 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Fylindfotberserk, I will try to fix the lists of Jats/Khatris completely in a day or two. But I don't know why the entries of PMs and CMs at Brahmin and Rajput lists are added in table format and the rest of the entries are in bullet format. All of them should be in bullet format to make those lists uniform. So please change those 2-3 subsections to bullet format if you get some time. I haven't got the time to look at the Rajput list. But a glance at the Chief Minister subsection indicates multiple BLP violations. From my previous experience, I can tell that Gurbachan Singh Salaria, Rajinder Singh (brigadier), Kishan Singh Rathore, etc. are unsourced or poorly sourced.

BTW, some suspected sock moved Yadav (surname) to List of Yadav people, which made the page full of BLP violations. So this needs to be moved back to the original title. Similarly, List of Yadav Politicians was created last year, and it also seems full of BLP violations. - NitinMlk (talk) 09:00, 6 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@NitinMlk: I'll do that, in time. Last year, before I took a break, the Brahmin had a table, but there were proper sources. Now the sources are gone. List of Rajputs article didn't have any table. And likewise the table has no references. Overzealous caste warriors in these articles. We need something like a extended protection (>5000) or something. - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 09:15, 6 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Why nobody for sports?

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There are Khatris in sports, apparently nobody decided to add that in this article No2WesternImperialism (talk) 02:47, 4 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Requires reliable sources for deceased people. For living people, self-identification in interviews, official social media handles that they belong to Khatri caste is required per consensus at WP:INB. - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 12:43, 6 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

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