Talk:List of Jewish Medal of Honor recipients

List of Jewish Medal of Honor recipients is a featured list, which means it has been identified as one of the best lists produced by the Wikipedia community. If you can update or improve it, please do so.

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June 27, 2009	Featured list candidate	Promoted
June 27, 2011	Featured list removal candidate	Kept

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John Otto Siegel

Does anyone have a source that John Otto Siegel was Jewish? I haven't seen him on other lists and can't find any information about him. —Preceding unsigned comment added by MRugel (talk • contribs) 20:56, 3 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Scharfstein as source

Scharfstein's Chronicle of Jewish History is a children's book. It should be treated very skeptically as a source. Many of the Medal of Honor recipients included here can be verified as non-Jews with a little research. Anyone included on this list based on Scharfstein should probably be removed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by MRugel (talk • contribs) 20:06, 24 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that the book does have some names that differ and frankly I don't know what the sources were that they used for recipietns such as Matt Urban but most of the names have multiple references (although a couple have alternate spellings) that verify the individuals religion and I have noted them in the references column. If you have some other references that identify Jewish recipients or that argue one of the recipients is not jewish I will gladly incorporate that. What I can at least do is add a note that clarifies to the readers that recipients such as Matt Urban who are only identified in one of the multiple references might not be Jewish. Is that acceptable? --Kumioko (talk) 20:30, 24 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Matt Urban is Polish descent and proud of it (The Matt Urban Story, 1989, by Urban. He should be revoved. He was born in New York too which makes him an "American" Medal of Honor recipient only. His wife and family gets news of this they probably won't like it. Nothing wrong with being Jewish descent but it don't apply here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.79.31.20 (talk) 07:26, 12 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Why do you think "of Polish descent", "American", and "Jewish" are mutually exclusive? Why can't one be an "American Medal of Honor recipient" and a "Jewish Medal of Honor recipient"? Jayjg ^(talk) 13:57, 12 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Matt Urban was an American. He was not a Polish American much less a Jewish American (Jew that became an American citizen). And he is not a recipeint of an Israel Medal of Honor (Jewish Medal of Honor recipeint). When he died he was age 75, not "aged 75" (Wikipdia-Matt Urban) which sounds like he was a piece of wood or something (aged wine). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.79.31.20 (talk • contribs)

"Israeli" is not a synonym for "Jewish". They mean different things. Jewish Americans generally do not have to "become American citizens", the vast majority are born that way. Please respond more meaningfully. Jayjg ^(talk) 03:34, 13 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

After researching this some more, it appears that Scharfstein is the only source that states Urban was Jewish. Other sources, including full-length books written about him, make no mention of this. In fact, they indicate he was a typical Polish-Catholic American, baptised and raised in the Catholic church. Jayjg ^(talk) 05:07, 13 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The deception didn't work. Urban's not a Polish American either. He didn't become an American citizen, he was born one. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.79.31.20 (talk • contribs)

What on earth are you talking about? Jayjg ^(talk) 14:41, 13 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

First you try to make him Jewish and a Jewish American war hero (even though Wikipedia says he of "Polish heritage") and then an orphan ("raised in the Catholic church") and a so called "Polish-Catholic American" when he was parented by a couple who were of the Roman Catholic faith. He, himself, didn't come from Poland (Polish American); or Rome (he was an American Catholic). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.79.31.20 (talk) 19:26, 15 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I still have no idea what you are talking about. I haven't written anything about Roman Catholics (much less them being from Rome), Polish Americans are not necessarily born in Poland, American Jews are Jews born in or citizens of America, and I didn't write this article. Please read the articles linked to in the previous sentence, start making coherent and sensible comments, and login YahwehSaves (talk · contribs). Jayjg ^(talk) 19:36, 15 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Samuel G. Fuqua?

Does anyone but Scharfstein claim Fuqua is Jewish? The first source used does not include him, and I can't find any other source indicating he is Jewish. Jayjg ^(talk) 19:45, 15 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

No thats the only one. There are several recipients on this list that are only listed in 1 source but I listed them anyway noting as such. --Kumioko (talk) 03:27, 16 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I'm concerned about this one - other sources don't include him, and we've already seen Scharfstein include one dubious name. And while this doesn't mean a huge amount, Fuqua is apparently an Anglicization of the (non-Jewish) French name Fouquet. I suppose it's possible this particular Fuqua had a Jewish mother or converted to Judaism, but I see nothing about this in any sources. Jayjg ^(talk) 03:34, 16 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I still haven't been able to find a source confirming Fuqua, aside from Scharfstein. If we can't find one, I propose to remove him too - it just seems too dubious. Jayjg ^(talk) 21:32, 1 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

This article is an embarrassment and should not be relied upon

Almost half the names on this list may not belong here according to a fellow who has done some research:

http://www.mypostingcareer.com/forums/index.php?/topic/4704-wikipedias-jewish-medal-of-honor-winners/

Conclusion:

"So, La Wik's editors claim that 28 winners of the Medal of Honor are Jewish, and yet, as you can see above, at least a dozen of these claims are very dubious, if not completely erroneous. So, it is likely that there are only 15 or 16 Jewish Medal of Honor winners.

I'm not going to go into the sources that Wikipedia used to justify this, I will just tell you that if you really want to get a good laugh, take a look at the way the references refer to to each other. It's a perfect clusterfuck of Tribe meets Wik."

204.195.51.47 (talk) 15:14, 25 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Well first let me clarify that the link you provided is no better than any of the references we used. Additionally, we cannot use first hand accounts, primary sources, court documents, etc. We have to rely on what can be verified and I think if you read this list you will see that I spell out in a couple places that some references do not list them all, some may or may not be Jewish based on those sources and that there are a couple that are questionable. But these are the ones that differing sources have said are Jewish. Right or wrong thats what has been published and is verifiable based on the references. Additionally, I am perfectly willing to accept that there are some that are not just as I am willing to accept that of the roughly 3500 Medal of Honor recipients, there are probably some that we just can't determine. I would also note that although the reasoning is sound in the attached "blog" We cannot base our artticles on someones potentially correct conjectures on what they think is the truth. The exception might be in the one Autobiography that's mentioned. --Kumioko (talk) 15:42, 25 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Of course, the link in itself isn't a valid source but the contents of the post should make someone rethink this article: references to church upbringings and being buried as Christians without any reliable evidence for the Jewishness of several of the recipients should raise some eyebrows. Most of the sources themselves either say nothing about the recipient being a Jew or come from dubious sources like blogs and children's books and present no evidence to back up their claims. It's absurd to rely upon such sources and ignore obvious problems like the Christian nature of a burial. 204.195.51.47 (talk) 19:14, 25 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Unfortunately without a reference of where that information came from theres nothing that needs to be done here yet. Eventhough they might be write, and I admit that in at least some cases they probably are, I can't change the article without some sort of reference. As far as being a childrens book I wouldn't agree that makes it a bad reference. I would ask though which links you think are blogs. Blogs are not good sources and as far as I can tell there are no blogs in this article as references. --Kumioko (talk) 19:53, 25 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Many Jews converted to Christianity, and/or were buried in Christian cemeteries, so that's not really conclusive evidence. Nor is evidence based on being born on a farm, or listening to the way an individual talks. Also, we have to be cautious with a source that has, to be frank, a pretty antisemitic feeling. The poster uses phrases like "if you're not a grasping ethnocentric fool", "Hebrew wish-fulfillment", "Tribe meets Wik", not to mention those of the other posters in the thread, such as "If there was a wiki list of jewish war profiteers you'd need a supercomputer to display it" and "Goddamned Sheenies. Always trying to rewrite history", and "Jews have repeated these errors in their slipshod scholarship and self-promotion hundreds of time", the last from a poster whose identifying symbol is a Star of David intertwined with a swastika. The entire board is filled with racist, antisemitic, and homophobic threads, with titles including "nigger bitch named shantel injects her children with heroin", "2011 Miss Oshkosh: not a nigger anymore", "The urban theory of homosexuality: The origins of faggotry", "The Shtetl of Mettle or Jews You Can Use: A Menschen Directory of Semitic Merit", "The Tribe demands more reparations", "Anonymous finally names the filthy jew", etc. So, even for unreliable sources, this one is at the least reliable end. That said, I am removing Fuqua from this list, per my comments in the thread immediately above. Jayjg ^(talk) 02:17, 26 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

That's fine but you need to update the numbers too. I don't really agree with it but I'm not editing much anymore so its not worth fighting the issue. --Kumioko (talk) 02:26, 26 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I thought I did update the numbers - did I miss some? Also, I hope you don't leave this article, its Featured List status is due to your efforts, of which you should be justifiably proud, and I think your input in these recent discussions has been invaluable! Jayjg ^(talk) 02:44, 26 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Addition

I believe Leonard M. Kravitz should be recognized on this page under Korean War medal winners. I figure someone else can probably make the changes before I have the time to get to it. Cheers. Rockhead126 (talk) 18:15, 25 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

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Jacob Trautman

I have serious doubts that Jacob Trautman was Jewish.

The apparent source is Scharfstein, Sol (1997). Chronicle of Jewish History: From the Patriarchs to the 21st Century. KTAV Pub. House. ISBN 0-88125-560-2. Retrieved May 12, 2011. which has been cited above (#Scharfstein) without argument as a children's book; the portion available on line provides no references, only a graphic. The entry was originated by an editor who has been blocked over several offenses.
Trautman's ["Pennsylvania, Pittsburgh City Deaths, 1870-1905," database with images, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XZ7K-V3P : 8 December 2014), Jacob Trautman, 07 Nov 1898; citing v 92 p 201, Allegheny County Courthouse, Pittsburgh; FHL microfilm 505,863. death certificate] provides that his parents were Jacob and Margaret Trautman.
The Family Search genealogy database Lists a Jacob Trautman christened on 19 Feb 1843 in Lambsborn, Bayern, Germany whose parents were Jacob Trautman and Margaretha Schott.^[1] All the records in the "Deutschland Geburten und Taufen, 1558-1898" list the mothers' maiden names and allowing for translation, Margaretha and Margaret are, I think, close enough. Birth dates are a little imprecise in the 19th century Army enlistment records but approximate 1843–45.
Trautman is not buried in a Jewish cemetery (doesn't have to be) and his grave marker does not indicate religion.^[2]

I'll await some input but I intend to delete Trautman from the list and delete reference to his faith on his page.--Georgia Army Vet Contribs Talk 01:34, 1 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Deleted.--Georgia Army Vet Contribs Talk 18:36, 9 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

References

^ "Deutschland Geburten und Taufen, 1558-1898," database, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NLGJ-W6P : 28 November 2014), Jacob Trautmann, 19 Feb 1843; citing ; FHL microfilm 193,965.
^ Jacob Trautman at Find a Grave

Sourcing for recent removals

Identifying the Jewish Serviceman in the Civil War: A Re-appraisal of Simon Wolf's "The American Jew As Patriot, Soldier and Citizen Sylvan Morris Dubow American Jewish Historical Quarterly

Vol. 59, No. 3, AMERICA AND NAZI GERMANY (MARCH, 1970), pp. 357-369 (13 pages) Published by: The Johns Hopkins University Press

link. Qwirkle (talk) 03:01, 9 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The National Museum of American Jewish Military History

lists only 17

The same list is used by, and published by, West Point’s Jewish Chapel. See here at Worldcat. Qwirkle (talk) 22:57, 9 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Civil War

Benjamin Levy

David Urbansky

Abraham Cohn

Leopold Karpeles

Indian Wars

Simon Suhler

Haiti

Samuel Marguilies

World War I

William Sawelson

Sydney Gumpertz

William Shemin

Benjamin Kaufman

World War II

Raymond Zussman

Isadore Jachman

Ben L. Salomon

Korean War

Tibor Rubin

Leonard M. Kravitz

Vietnam War

John Lee Levitow

Jack Jacobs

Qwirkle (talk) 03:56, 9 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

William Shemin

It’s strange that a list that included so many people who did not belong on it left one out. Perhaps someone with more Wiki-fu than me - a rather large number of people, that - could add him? Qwirkle (talk) 06:54, 10 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Featured?

I realize this [removal] is not the correct way to request re-assessment of a feature article, but am unable to figure the correct way to start. Help!? Any pointers or assistance would be appreciated, but in the mean time it is a terrible thing to mislead the readers that this POS deserves a gold star on its forehead

This article is incomplete, with a straightforwardly obvious candidate for the list, William Shemin, omitted. It is horrendously sourced. Right now, it wouldn’t pass an honest GA review....and this is aftermassive improvement in accuracy. Qwirkle (talk) 17:07, 16 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

[1] "Deutschland Geburten und Taufen, 1558-1898," database, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NLGJ-W6P : 28 November 2014), Jacob Trautmann, 19 Feb 1843; citing ; FHL microfilm 193,965.

[2] Jacob Trautman at Find a Grave

[1]

[2]