Talk:List of Happy Endings episodes

Episode Order

I know the page is protected right now, but when it's not, the episode order is definitely off. The air order is correct, but Bo Fight is clearly from the beginning of the season (despite airing as the tenth episode). Any suggestions of a good source for that sort of thing? Darquis (talk) 02:27, 20 May 2011 (UTC)

It's hardly the only page that does that...Wikipedia is pretty clear about printing episodes in broadcast order (with a few exceptions like Futurama which reorganized according to the DVD order because, in spite of being a cartoon, it did turn out to have a bit of a cannon). Typically, this is countered by adding the production codes (or production number if the actual code isn't readily available). According to the The Futon Critic, the production numbers in order of broadcast are 101 & 102, 103 & 104, 105, 106 & 109, 107 & 110, 111 ("Bo Fight") & 112, and next week's 108. KnownAlias X 12:11, 20 May 2011 (UTC)

I've seen quite a number of episode lists change the order based on the DVD order, which is usually the intended order (often also the production order) after it was released. For now there's no DVD to use, and the production order isn't always the intended, or chronological order either. So I think it best to leave it by the broadcast order until the DVD is released and then maybe revisit this. _Xeworlebi ^(talk) 12:24, 20 May 2011 (UTC)

The official writer's twitter feed now lists the episodes in their intended/produced order. This has been added to the table as the "Prod. Code" (production code). FutonCritic's production numbers that are in the XYY format (X = season number, Y= episode number) are infamous for being wildly incorrect. - Wattlebird (talk) 09:51, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

Season article

As I have tried to explain at Wattlebird's talk page, there is no need for a season article at this point. Season articles should only be created when either the main article is getting to big or the episode list is getting to long, neither being the case at this point. Wattlebird already removed about half the production section from the main article in favor of putting it on the season article. Anyway I find this split premature, and it should be reverted until there's ample reason to recreate the season article. _Xeworlebi ^(talk) 12:24, 20 May 2011 (UTC)

I agree, the guidance at WP:MOS#Episode listing and WP:MOS#Multiple pages is pretty clear that this kind of split isn't called for until at least a fourth season. I think there's a tendency for editors to feel that this kind of split is standard because it's been done, without realizing this is unnecessary. Content for these season articles requires more than just episode summaries and full seasons to justify being a full article, and it typically takes a couple of seasons at least to tell whether a series generates the kind of notable content to make such an article. Many a season page is anemic at best because the table is about the only worthwhile content it contains, and that would only be justified with a longer series like (to extreme it) The Simpsons. It explains how Modern Family was able to commit to a decent season 1 article, but it's less buzzworthy companion show, The Middle, has yet to split it's content going into season 3. I can even understand a premature splitting for a show as notably documented as Glee, but so far Happy Endings seems to be looking for filler for season one (I'm focusing, in particular, on the space-taking ratings table which, while informative, does not replace notable prose content). Yes, it generated a lot of buzz for a spring replacement show, but until it establishes it's longevity, that could simply be attributed to an anemic comedy season that otherwise only produced Raising Hope after a season that gave us Modern Family, The Middle, the apparently now-struggling Cougar Town and Community. Wikipedia is not CNN; we don't need to report the news in real time. As an encyclopedia, ours is to manage it's relevant impact in the long term. It can wait. KnownAlias X 12:58, 20 May 2011 (UTC)

"Season articles should only be created when either the main article is getting to big or the episode list is getting to long, neither being the case at this point"

Where is this stated? The only page used as revert reasons doesn't specify a required number of episodes and/or seasons before a split can be made - it only indicates that episode lists that you are attempting to revert to "generally lack the amount of real world information (e.g. production, themes, etc.) that a season article has. They may contain some awards or a reception section, but they are generally a list of information pertaining to that respective season". The season page fulfills that requirement. The page also says the pages are valid if they "include a full lead, as noted above, and follow the same guidelines laid out here as they will be evaluated as stand alone articles". Which it also does. Therefore, even if the episode list is reverted, the season one page is a legitimate and valid article and attempts to revert it to a re-direct to this article can be considered invalid edits, which will in turn be reverted.

It is definitely a grey area, because it doesn't explicitly state that a "premature split" isn't allowed, it only suggests it happens when the episode list article has gotten too long.

- Wattlebird (talk) 09:02, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

First sentence which you claim give no amount: "For very lengthy series, generally 80+ episodes", 13 is nowhere near 80. You're missing the entire point, which is that there's no reason to split them in the first place. I also suggest you read WP:SPLIT, WP:SIZE and all the other relevant pages. There's no reason to create dozens of small articles when there's already a place for all that information. If there's only one season, then all the relevant information fits just fine on the main article. You have given no reason (nor is there one) for why this season article exists in the first place. Also, you're asking for absolute rules and regulations, which is something that rarely exists on Wikipedia. _Xeworlebi ^(talk) 09:45, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

If you want to restore information that was removed from both articles, fine, go ahead. But it doesn't change the validity of the season article, as it is better than some existing season articles for other shows that are essentially clones of the main article with information not relating to that specific season stripped out and offers almost no new information. Why should those pages exist, despite having more episodes (two seasons of 22-24 episodes) than Happy Endings, when there is another place that the information can, and does, go while this article simply gets reverted away? - Wattlebird (talk) 10:22, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

Off course it does, it makes the season article entirely redundant, and therefor unnecessary. WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS is not a good argument. _Xeworlebi ^(talk) 10:37, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

This is not a case of WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS. I'm not saying the season article should exist because other shows have season articles. I'm saying this article shouldn't be merged into the main article and then removed because there are season articles that are clones of the main article and offer no new information. If this article goes, then theoretically, so should the others. However, if I went and removed these other pages, I would be immediately reverted. What is the difference here? - Wattlebird (talk) 10:47, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

So you're not saying the article should exist because other articles like this one exists, you're instead saying the article shouldn't be redirected because other articles like this one exist? That's just the same sentence. That's verbatim WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS. The relevance or appropriateness of other articles is not the point of discussion here, we're discussing this one. Whether or not other articles should be redirected/merged/deleted can be discussed at their talk pages. _Xeworlebi ^(talk) 11:03, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

My personal opinion is that it is probably too early for a season page. There may be others out there, but they are not under discussion. When I review (usually season 1 pages) those pages for featured article, good article, or even just a peer review I usually scrutinize any information that is just a copy and paste job of the main page for the series. The season one page should be unique enough to stand on its own, even when it's a season "list" and not a season "article". As of right now, I don't see why one cannot wait to see if the show gets past 2 seasons. I like a rule of thumb for about 4 seasons, because then you're talking about 80 episodes, give or take, and that's a lot to cover. But, whether you like that rule of thumb or not, I think that 1 season is really not enough. Not unless that show is so notable that there is a such a huge outcrop of information that it cannot be sustained on the main page and the List of Episodes pages. Just to point out, you can have plot summaries on the LOE pages. The only time they get trimmed down to just titles is when there are so many seasons that it would make the page humongous to try and have all of that in one location.  BIGNOLE  (Contact me) 14:16, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

To me, it makes sense to create a season article, despite the article not being as full as other shows articles are because, to me, it makes sense to have all the information that relates to that specific season on the season article and that the main article has information that relates to the series as a whole. Had the series been axed, I would agree that all the information should go into the main article, but it wasn't so I feel it doesn't belong there. This is why I left the production section intact on the main article, but moved the episode specific info to the season article. Sure the main article is somewhat bare at the moment, but what can you expect of a show that has only been airing for six weeks? Anyway, that was my line of thinking when I created the article. - Wattlebird (talk) 09:35, 25 May 2011 (UTC)

And I completely understand that reasoning. I think the point that Xeworlebi was trying to make is that usually there is a stepping stone of movements that happen (sometimes they are forgotten). We usually go Main Article, List of Episodes article, Season Article/List (depending on the type of info being presented), and last Individual Episode Articles. Typically, when a show has only been in existence for 1 short season, you will find everything on the Main Article page. That includes the list of episodes table. That's usually because splitting a subtopic is performed when the parent article is too large to hold the information. I don't think that is the case here, as the season 1 page itself is really small (3kb of readable prose). I cannot determine the size of the main page because it is protected, but it's visibly shorter than the season page. According to the guideline, 30kb does not justify a split, and we're talking about probably less than 6kb of readable prose in both pages combined.  BIGNOLE  (Contact me) 17:58, 25 May 2011 (UTC)

A bit belated but i have been in both Wattlebird's and Xeworlebi's positions. There have been a few shows where season pages are created well before a fourth season. They are some of the mega-massive-global-hit shows like LOST and Grey's Anatomy that were certain to last 4 years or more and which could have a lot written and referenced about the seasons. Happy Endings is not a sure bet for having a fourth season. NCIS Los Angeles is a pretty safe bet for a fourth season as it and its 4 related shows (NCIS, JAG, Hawaii Five-O, and Hawaii Five-0) have a combined 33 seasons prior to September 2011 and among those no show which has ended has less than 10 seasons. Combat Hospital is a hit in Canada but has not done so well internationally and might end up a single-season show despite being the most popular new Canadian drama of 2010-11. Having a separate episode list when there is little in the main article for a show of a single season that is at best questionable for getting a second season will likely see me redirecting the episode list back to the main article. Happy Endings lies in the middle of those two. If it is a hit and gets renewed for a third season or you are prepared to put a lot of work into it yourself right away to justify the spilt (see the Cougar Town season pages) with season-specific content it would be best to leave it as a list of episodes. delirious & lost ☯ ^~hugs~ 22:42, 12 September 2011 (UTC)

Season Order Disagreement

The second season was ordered with 22 episodes. All 22 are written, produced, filmed, etc. Even if the episode only ends up in the second season DVD (highly unlikely), it's not reflective that the second season is actually 22 episodes long, regardless if the extra episode will air (and really, it will at some point).

The only situation where this could get tricky on the off chance that the episode is carried over to the third season and shown sometimes there, but we don't know that and that's a fairly rare practice (though, Body of Proof did do it). We do know that 22 episodes were ordered and all were completed. I still think it should say 22. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ivysaur12 (talk • contribs) 04:09, 12 March 2012 (UTC)