Talk:List of Gold Coast suburbs

Umm ...

Permmision to make every entry on this page a link to the relevant article? I find the current setup a bit confusing and it would sure make some work for all those redundant wiki-contributers. Josh 05:55, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Is it "Mermaid Waters" or "Mermaid Beach"? I can only find the later on the GCCC website.

Both. --WikiCats 03:31, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Many of the former Gold Coast City suburbs (eg Broadbeach, Mermaid Beach, Miami and Burleigh were mirrored within the adjacent shire by a Waters twin. They are now significant suburbs in their own right. The City boundary has now dissolved through amalgamation in 1996. Some of the names in the suburb list are localities within suburbs. A lot of old subdivision names live on as localities within larger suburbs. The distincition is often difficult to resolve - one clue seems to be looking at the Post Code to see if its shared with other place names. Things like Islands and hills are often localities as well within suburbs. 203.3.64.1 22:41, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

Nope - Labrador, Maine Beach, Biggera Waters and Runaway Bay all have the same postcode. Sorry :P AQjosh 15:23, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

list of suburbs and localities

This list is very out of date and doesn't match the navbox either. However, it is hard to add the missing ones without a clear insight into the purpose of the current 4 column presentation. Is there any basis for the 4 lists here? In particular, the "pre and post 1994" suburbs, or suburbs-vs-localities. If there is a common way of organising the suburbs/localities by region (e.g. by the Gold Coast City Council or similar), it seems reasonable to mimic that here and and in the navbox, but otherwise wouldn't a straightforward alphabetic list be more useful to the reader? Kerry (talk) 01:09, 5 April 2014 (UTC)

The current list of suburbs are: Arundel Ashmore Benowa Biggera Waters Bilinga Broadbeach Broadbeach Waters Bundall Burleigh Heads Burleigh Waters Carrara Clear Island Waters Coolangatta Coombabah Coomera Currumbin Currumbin Waters Elanora Helensvale Highland Park Hollywell Hope Island Jacobs Well Labrador Main Beach Mermaid Beach Mermaid Waters Merrimac Miami Molendinar Mudgeeraba Nerang Neranwood Ormeau Oxenford Pacific Pines Palm Beach Paradise Point Parkwood Pimpama Reedy Creek Robina Runaway Bay Southport Surfers Paradise Tallai Tallebudgera Tugun Upper Coomera Varsity Lakes Worongary Yatala

The current list of bounded localities are: Advancetown Alberton Austinville Bonogin Cedar Creek (gold Coast City) Clagiraba Currumbin Valley Gaven Gilberton (gold Coast City) Gilston Guanaba Kingsholme Lower Beechmont Luscombe Maudsland Mount Nathan Natural Bridge Norwell Numinbah Valley Ormeau Hills South Stradbroke Southern Moreton Bay Islands Springbrook Stapylton Steiglitz Tallebudgera Valley Willow Vale Wongawallan Woongoolba

Between them, the suburbs and bounded localities completely partition the local government area (i.e. cover without overlap). For definitional purposes, suburbs are what you call them in an urban area, bounded localities are what you call them in a rural area, but they have the same status as official addresses within a local government area. I think all of these warrant articles in Wikipedia.

The current unbounded localities (the less official names) are: Anglers Paradise Araucaria Lookout Bell Bird Lookout Bellaringa Lookout Best Of All Lookout Bilbrough Lookout Boojerahla Lookout Boykambil Burrawang Lookout Cabbage Tree Point Canyon Lookout Chevron Island Couran Cronin Island Cupania Currigee Cypress Gardens Florida Gardens Garden Of Eden Garragoolba Lookout Goodings Corner Goomoolahra Lookout Gorooburra Lookout Green Meadows Greenmount Hanging Rock Heydon Heights Ingleside Isle Of Capri Joalah Lookout Jumpinpin Junimbabah Lookout Kirra Koala Park Koolanbilba Lookout Kooloonbano Lookout Kulboombin Latimers Crossing Mallawa Mccoys Pocket Miami Keys Milleribah Lookout Moana Moondarewa Moonjooroora Lookout Musgrave Hill Nobby Beach Numinbah Lookout Nyoongai Lookout Orchid Bower Paradise Island Paradise Waters Piggabeen Crossing Place Pimpama Island Rainbow Bay Reads Lookout Rialto Ridgetop Rio Vista Rudder Lookout Santa Barbara Sorrento Sphinx Lookout Studio Village Tallaringa Lookout The Gap The Spit Tugun Heights Warumblebah Lookout Wedge Bluff Lookout West Burleigh Yaborogura Lookout Yangahla Lookout

This group probably don't warrant articles, but might be mentioned in the relevant suburb/locality articles and redirected if they are mentioned in other articles. Anyhow that's my thoughts. Feedback welcome. Kerry (talk) 01:29, 5 April 2014 (UTC)

list unbounded localities and towns in the City of the Gold Coast

If you are keen on completeness, I did a little data mining for you (from a spreadsheet that is a few years old, so I cannot swear it is 100% accurate but should be close enough). What the list below tells you is the lat/long of probably centrepoint of the neighbourhood or tow. You have to put the lat/long into Google Maps or Google Earth to work out what suburb it is within. If you are not already doing so, you should install the Queensland Globe (which is really just a small file that you download and open within Google Earth. Then you can see precisely and authoritatively where the suburb boundaries are, etc. The Queensland Globe is the Wikipedian's friend! But I'd have to say that I am dubious that the lookouts are truly neighbourhoods (they may just have lacked a better type in the QPN framework). Kerry (talk) 04:35, 18 June 2016 (UTC)

Number	Name	Type	Latitude	Longitude
613	Anglers Paradise	Locality Unbounded, Neighbourhood, Pocket	-27.92305556	153.3986111
740	Araucaria Lookout	Locality Unbounded, Neighbourhood, Pocket	-28.23333333	153.2163889
2139	Bell Bird Lookout	Locality Unbounded, Neighbourhood, Pocket	-28.2	153.1997222
2167	Bellaringa Lookout	Locality Unbounded, Neighbourhood, Pocket	-28.23333333	153.2663889
2404	Best Of All Lookout	Locality Unbounded, Neighbourhood, Pocket	-28.24305556	153.2636111
2565	Bilbrough Lookout	Locality Unbounded, Neighbourhood, Pocket	-28.23333333	153.2833333
3622	Boojerahla Lookout	Locality Unbounded, Neighbourhood, Pocket	-28.21666667	153.2833333
4218	Boykambil	Locality Unbounded, Neighbourhood, Pocket	-27.87138889	153.3669444
47763	Burleigh	City, Town, Township	-28.09083333	153.4525
5435	Burrawang Lookout	Locality Unbounded, Neighbourhood, Pocket	-28.2	153.2163889
5634	Cabbage Tree Point	Locality Unbounded, Neighbourhood, Pocket	-27.73666667	153.3552778
6116	Canyon Lookout	Locality Unbounded, Neighbourhood, Pocket	-28.21666667	153.2663889
7047	Chevron Island	Locality Unbounded, Neighbourhood, Pocket	-27.99666667	153.4208333
8178	Coomera	City, Town, Township	-27.87222222	153.3144444
8563	Couran	Locality Unbounded, Neighbourhood, Pocket	-27.82444444	153.4155556
8805	Cronin Island	Locality Unbounded, Neighbourhood, Pocket	-27.99277778	153.4183333
38898	Cupania	Locality Unbounded, Neighbourhood, Pocket	-27.76916667	153.2386111
9082	Currigee	Locality Unbounded, Neighbourhood, Pocket	-27.89722222	153.4225
9143	Cypress Gardens	Locality Unbounded, Neighbourhood, Pocket	-28.02833333	153.3972222
12814	Florida Gardens	Locality Unbounded, Neighbourhood, Pocket	-28.02	153.4247222
13430	Garden Of Eden	Locality Unbounded, Neighbourhood, Pocket	-28.25	153.35
13467	Garragoolba Lookout	Locality Unbounded, Neighbourhood, Pocket	-28.25	153.2163889
42078	Gold Coast	City, Town, Township	-27.99833333	153.3341667
14218	Goodings Corner	Locality Unbounded, Neighbourhood, Pocket	-28.03305556	153.3830556
14279	Goomoolahra Lookout	Locality Unbounded, Neighbourhood, Pocket	-28.21666667	153.2833333
14451	Gorooburra Lookout	Locality Unbounded, Neighbourhood, Pocket	-28.2	153.2163889
14749	Green Meadows	Locality Unbounded, Neighbourhood, Pocket	-27.81666667	153.35
14786	Greenmount	Locality Unbounded, Neighbourhood, Pocket	-28.16583333	153.5441667
15317	Hanging Rock	Locality Unbounded, Neighbourhood, Pocket	-28.23333333	153.3830556
15831	Heydon Heights	Locality Unbounded, Neighbourhood, Pocket	-27.95166667	153.3983333
16680	Ingleside	Locality Unbounded, Neighbourhood, Pocket	-28.16555556	153.3816667
16879	Isle Of Capri	Locality Unbounded, Neighbourhood, Pocket	-28.01166667	153.4244444
17249	Joalah Lookout	Locality Unbounded, Neighbourhood, Pocket	-28.23333333	153.1997222
17462	Jumpinpin	Locality Unbounded, Neighbourhood, Pocket	-27.74194444	153.4386111
17499	Junimbabah Lookout	Locality Unbounded, Neighbourhood, Pocket	-28.25	153.2163889
18304	Kirra	Locality Unbounded, Neighbourhood, Pocket	-28.1675	153.5322222
18366	Koala Park	Locality Unbounded, Neighbourhood, Pocket	-28.09833333	153.4522222
18440	Koolanbilba Lookout	Locality Unbounded, Neighbourhood, Pocket	-28.2	153.1997222
18459	Kooloonbano Lookout	Locality Unbounded, Neighbourhood, Pocket	-28.18305556	153.2163889
18571	Kulboombin	Locality Unbounded, Neighbourhood, Pocket	-27.98333333	153.25
19036	Latimers Crossing	Locality Unbounded, Neighbourhood, Pocket	-28.03305556	153.3
43132	Main Beach	City, Town, Township	-27.93138889	153.4177778
20716	Mallawa	Locality Unbounded, Neighbourhood, Pocket	-28.225	153.2036111
21326	Mccoys Pocket	Locality Unbounded, Neighbourhood, Pocket	-27.81666667	153.35
39195	Miami Keys	Locality Unbounded, Neighbourhood, Pocket	-28.03444444	153.4205556
22089	Milleribah Lookout	Locality Unbounded, Neighbourhood, Pocket	-28.2	153.2163889
22407	Moana	Locality Unbounded, Neighbourhood, Pocket	-28.02666667	153.4158333
44010	Moondarewa	Locality Unbounded, Neighbourhood, Pocket	-27.93416667	153.4225
22677	Moonjooroora Lookout	Locality Unbounded, Neighbourhood, Pocket	-28.2	153.1997222
39096	Mudgeeraba	City, Town, Township	-28.07916667	153.3536111
23651	Musgrave Hill	Locality Unbounded, Neighbourhood, Pocket	-27.96055556	153.3994444
24047	Nerang	City, Town, Township	-27.99027778	153.3355556
39209	Nobby Beach	Locality Unbounded, Neighbourhood, Pocket	-28.05888889	153.4411111
47764	North Burleigh	City, Town, Township	-28.06527778	153.4427778
24884	Numinbah Lookout	Locality Unbounded, Neighbourhood, Pocket	-28.21666667	153.2163889
24927	Nyoongai Lookout	Locality Unbounded, Neighbourhood, Pocket	-28.2	153.2163889
25536	Orchid Bower	Locality Unbounded, Neighbourhood, Pocket	-28.25	153.2163889
25575	Ormeau	City, Town, Township	-27.79666667	153.2597222
26046	Paradise Island	Locality Unbounded, Neighbourhood, Pocket	-28.00416667	153.4230556
26051	Paradise Waters	Locality Unbounded, Neighbourhood, Pocket	-27.98638889	153.4211111
26710	Piggabeen Crossing Place	Locality Unbounded, Neighbourhood, Pocket	-28.17916667	153.4575
26753	Pimpama Island	Locality Unbounded, Neighbourhood, Pocket	-27.72277778	153.3333333
27921	Rainbow Bay	Locality Unbounded, Neighbourhood, Pocket	-28.16472222	153.5475
28107	Reads Lookout	Locality Unbounded, Neighbourhood, Pocket	-28.23333333	153.2833333
28416	Rialto	Locality Unbounded, Neighbourhood, Pocket	-28.02305556	153.4091667
28473	Ridgetop	Locality Unbounded, Neighbourhood, Pocket	-28.23333333	153.3666667
28511	Rio Vista	Locality Unbounded, Neighbourhood, Pocket	-28.01972222	153.4158333
29267	Rudder Lookout	Locality Unbounded, Neighbourhood, Pocket	-28.21666667	153.2663889
29566	Sanctuary Cove	City, Town, Township	-27.85555556	153.3530556
29936	Santa Barbara	Locality Unbounded, Neighbourhood, Pocket	-27.86388889	153.3455556
31408	Sorrento	Locality Unbounded, Neighbourhood, Pocket	-28.01777778	153.4008333
31635	Sphinx Lookout	Locality Unbounded, Neighbourhood, Pocket	-28.24388889	153.2597222
31986	Springbrook	City, Town, Township	-28.18388889	153.2586111
32327	Steiglitz	City, Town, Township	-27.74416667	153.3530556
39101	Studio Village	Locality Unbounded, Neighbourhood, Pocket	-27.91916667	153.3175
33190	Tallaringa Lookout	Locality Unbounded, Neighbourhood, Pocket	-28.21666667	153.2663889
33939	The Gap	Locality Unbounded, Neighbourhood, Pocket	-28.24194444	153.3730556
34127	The Spit	Locality Unbounded, Neighbourhood, Pocket	-27.95194444	153.4266667
35274	Tugun Heights	Locality Unbounded, Neighbourhood, Pocket	-28.15166667	153.4847222
36639	Warumblebah Lookout	Locality Unbounded, Neighbourhood, Pocket	-28.25	153.2163889
36870	Wedge Bluff Lookout	Locality Unbounded, Neighbourhood, Pocket	-28.21666667	153.2663889
37032	West Burleigh	Locality Unbounded, Neighbourhood, Pocket	-28.11055556	153.4336111
38338	Yaborogura Lookout	Locality Unbounded, Neighbourhood, Pocket	-28.25	153.2163889
38429	Yangahla Lookout	Locality Unbounded, Neighbourhood, Pocket	-28.2	153.1997222

Transcluded discussion from my user talk page

You've done a lot of good work on that article (and I'm pleased to see you like my Places citations). Well done! However, I suggest you restore (either in its previous form as a section or incorporated into the table -- perhaps as a column for "neighbourhoods" for all the unbounded localities within that suburb). The reason why we had that there before is because most readers don't really know what is or isn't an official suburb/bounded locality (the bounded ones) from the unbounded (unbounded localities and towns). To most readers, they are all suburbs. And when they think one is missing from the article, they will edit the article and add it into the suburb list. So by having the neighbourhoods (that's the term I usually use for unbounded localities as it seems to cause least confusion to the readers) already in the article explaining they are part of another suburb, it helps to avoid that problem of "new" suburbs popping up from time to time. I note that some of the neighbourhoods have articles, so it's a pity to lose links to them as well. For the same reason, I included the former suburbs and what became of them, because otherwise they pop up again if they are not mentioned. I think it's better to include the neighbourhoods and former suburbs in order to educate the reader, while at the same time deflecting unwanted edits. Kerry (talk) 02:06, 18 June 2016 (UTC)

Thanks for your comments and citations Kerry. I have restored the section in it's previous form. I'm not sure what to do about the unofficial places, unbounded localities, neighbourhoods, towns, etc. I would like to clearly define the scope and the selection criteria so it can eventually meet the featured list criteria. I think the article is a short, complete list of every item that is verifiably a member of the group. Do you agree? What do you think the selection criteria should be? I agree it's also important to have minimize potential edit wars. New9374 (talk) 03:31, 18 June 2016 (UTC)

My POV is always "what's most useful to the reader" so I tend to be indifferent to "featured" criteria (as that is about satisfying editors rather than readers). Most (all?) of the neighbourhoods are still citable. Many are listed in the Queensland Place Names e.g. Rainbow Bay, Isle of Capri, as unbounded localities, while others will probably be subdivision names and will tend to throw up some kind of mention in newspapers or advertising (the source only has to be reliable enough to demonstrate that this is a name in actual use by people). If you want a selection criteria for neighbourhoods, I'd say anything in the Queensland Place Names definitely belongs (as it is an official neighbourhood name), the others probably on the basis on someone's bothered to add them in the past and could be supported by some kind of citation. I would not be looking for completeness here (that would be silly as there are many subdivision names which are used for a short while but then fall out of use). The present list has been stable for some time, so I am guessing we have a lot of the main ones already. Kerry (talk) 04:05, 18 June 2016 (UTC)

Also for what it's worth, I don't tend to undo contributions from new people (aka readers) so long as it's good faith. They went to the trouble to add something so probably some other readers will find it useful. But I try to position it in the right part of the article, reword it into more encyclopedic style, and add a citation (all of which new contributors aren't so good at). Kerry (talk) 04:05, 18 June 2016 (UTC)

Thank you for being upfront about your POV. I am keen on completeness. I agree that many of the neighbourhoods are sourced, notable and listed in the Queensland Place Names as unbounded localities, and thank you for retrieving a list [of] unbounded localities and towns in the City of the Gold Coast, however unbounded localities are no longer named so there cannot be completeness in any such list. I agree that some subdivisions are sourced and notable and that it's silly to seek completeness. Given the incompleteness, how do you feel about re-naming the article to List of Gold Coast suburbs and localities (or similar), removing neighbourhoods and subdivions from the list (like all similar lists) and instead mentioning neighbourhoods and "[subdivisions] in the relevant suburb/locality articles"? New9374 (talk) 05:05, 18 June 2016 (UTC)

I think the title would be better as List of suburbs in the City of Gold Coast. Suburbs is intuitive to most readers who generally does not distinguish between suburbs and bounded localities (and frankly the supposed urban/rural distinction often is incorrect in practice -- many exceptions exist). I'd prefer to say "City of Gold Coast" rather than just "Gold Coast" (otherwise you will find people wanting to put NSW suburbs in there on the same crazy principle that Suburbs of Brisbane is built on). Just because the primary focus of the article is to list the official bounded areas, I don't see a problem with the additional information of former suburbs, neighbourhood names etc as the reader may expect to find them, so we provide them but educate the reader as their less formal status. As a general principle, the title and the lede should be "accessible" (meaning the ordinary reader can understand more or less what they can expect from the article) but of course we can strive to be more precise or more correct or whatever in the article body with suitable explanation. Or to put it another way, we don't need to be as precise in titles and lede paras. Kerry (talk) 05:31, 18 June 2016 (UTC)

I agree the title would be better ending with "in the City of Gold Coast" so that the scope and selection criteria are more clearly defined and so the potential for edit wars is minimized. However I prefer List of suburbs and localities in the City of Gold Coast to List of suburbs in the City of Gold Coast because regardless of the incorrectly practiced urban/rural distinction, there is still a distinction and that distinction is important: it would be false to state "every item on the list (e.g. Advancetown) is a suburb in the City of Gold Coast" - even in the title. As far as I know there is no term that includes "suburbs and localities" like municipalities does in the United States. Also the template for the City of Gold Coast and (most) other LGA templates are titled "suburbs and localities" presumably for this same reason. I am confident that I can simply distinguish suburbs and localities in the lede to make it "accessible". I think why not be precise in the title and lede as well as the article body? Indeed, to be featured list the lede must introduce the subject and define the scope and inclusion criteria. I agree that former suburbs and former localities should be included. I'll ask again though, how do you feel about removing neighbourhoods and subdivions from the list (like all similar lists) and instead mentioning neighbourhoods and "[subdivisions] in the relevant suburb/locality articles"? Another possibility is to split this list into two separate articles List of suburbs and localities in the City of Gold Coast and List of otherthing1, otherthing2 and otherthing3 in the City of Gold Coast just like the list of 67 counties in Florida and the list of 410 municipalities in those 67 counties in Florida. The scope of the former would be the existing complete 81 suburbs and localities, and the scope of the latter could be a dynamic list with sourced, cited, unbounded localities and subdivisions. The benefit of splitting is that each list will then include items at distinct administrative-division levels. New9374 (talk) 07:22, 18 June 2016 (UTC)

The above discussion is transcluded from New9374's talk page. Please respond here.

For the reasons provided I intend moving the article to List of suburbs and localities in the City of Gold Coast and removing the neighbourhoods/subdivisions. If you like, feel free to create a new article about the neighbourhoods/subdivisions. Thank you, New9374 (talk) 06:31, 19 June 2016 (UTC)

The articles will only neighbourhoods/subdivisions will then be out of any context (in particular, the suburbs to which they reference). A better strategy would be to add a column in the table of suburbs to list any well-known neighbourhood. I am not aware of any precedent to put Australian neighbourhoods in separate articles. This article has been around since 2006 and neighbourhoods are present in the first version and all subsequent versions so there's a fair bit of historic support for the current practice. Kerry (talk) 12:05, 19 June 2016 (UTC)

I am advocating for the removal of neighbourhoods/subdivisions from this article because they do not fall within the scope or selection criteria of these lists of suburbs in Australia. I am indifferent about creating a new article... however context could be provided in the lede and in a "suburb" column just like List of municipalities in Florida does. I agree there is no precedent for such a standalone list. I think it's because Australian neighborhoods are rarely/sometimes/infrequently notable so "maybe a new article should be created or maybe not" but that's a different debate to "whether or not they should be removed from this article". As for the historic support, please do not appeal to tradition. I feel I have addressed all your rationale and that we are at a standstill so I intend to request an opinion from an uninvolved third editor. Do you agree/disagree with this process? Thank you, New9374 (talk) 13:04, 19 June 2016 (UTC)

I think it's unhelpful to readers to remove them from these articles, because readers won't necessarily know of their formal gazettal status, and if you're looking for a neighbourhood, this is the obvious place a reader would start. I feel like the fact that this has been in the - hardly unwatched - article for an entire decade reflects this logic. A column in the table of suburbs addresses the issue. Readers should be able to find the information easily, and a separate article is completely illogical since the casual reader won't get why Wikipedia has two articles about to the average person, the same thing. The Drover's Wife (talk) 15:51, 19 June 2016 (UTC)

Third opinion

The dispute involves issues regarding article content. There are three disagreements involving mainly two editors, New9374 and Kerry Raymond. An extra editor, The Drover's Wife, has had minimal participation.

The first disagreement is whether to re-name the article List of suburbs on the City of Gold Coast or List of suburbs and localities on the City of Gold Coast. Kerry Raymond argues for the former; New9374 argues for the latter.

• Arguments for List of suburbs on the City of Gold Coast:

1. "Suburbs" is intuitive to most readers to whom suburbs and localities are the same thing.
   Counterarguments: The term suburbs is not used to include both suburbs and localities in the Queensland Government's Queensland Place Names database. Besides the similar term state suburbs although used to include both suburbs and localities are only approximates calculated by the Australian Bureau of Statistics.
2. There are many exceptions to the supposed urban/rural distinction between suburbs and localities.
   Counterargument: Although there are a few exceptions, at least in the City of Gold Coast, suburbs are still generally located in the east and have smaller areas and higher populations and localities are located in the west and have larger areas and lower populations. Besides the exception proves the rule.
3. The title and lede should be accessible. We can be more precise in the article body with suitable explanation.
   Counterargument: Why not be precise in the title and lede as well as the article body? Indeed to become a featured list the lede must introduce the subject and define the scope and inclusion criteria.
4. Consistent with the Category:Suburbs of the Gold Coast, Queensland and Template:Suburb lists in Australia.
   Counterargument: Could change category name and template name for consistency.

• Arguments for List of suburbs and localities on the City of Gold Coast:

1. There is a distinction between suburbs and localities and that distinction is important. It would be false to state "every item on the list is a suburb in the City of Gold Coast" ― or even imply by including only the term "suburbs" in the title so we must include the term "suburbs and localities" in the title.

The second disagreement is whether to keep neighbourhoods/subdivisions/towns in the article. Kerry Raymond argues to keep; New9374 argues to remove.

• Arguments to keep:

1. Many neighbourhoods/subdivisions/towns are listed in the Queensland Government's Queensland Place Names database as "unbounded localities".
   Counterargument: "Unbounded localities" are no longer named.
2. Most readers don't know if a place is a suburb/locality or a neighbourhood/subdivision/town. They are the same thing to them.
   Counterargument: Will explain in the lede. Indeed to become a featured list the lede must introduce the subject and define the scope and inclusion criteria.
3. Keep in a separate section or in a column in the suburbs/localities table to deflect unwanted edits like readers adding neighbourhoods/subdivisions/towns to the suburb/locality table in a new row.
   Counterargument: A better way to deflect unwanted edits is to clearly define the selection criteria and to explicitly state it in hidden comments and the talk page.
4. It is most useful to the reader because the reader may expect to find them.
   Counterargument: If the reader expects to find of a list of neighbourhoods/subdivisions/towns for the local government area then that's an argument to have a list on Wikipedia but not necessarily in this article. If you like, feel free to create a new article about the neighbourhoods/subdivisions/towns.
5. Some of the neighbourhoods/subdivisions/towns have articles so it's a pity to lose links to them. And most others are often mentioned in newspapers or advertising.
   Counterargument: If some of them have articles and most others are cited in reliable sources then that's an argument to have a list on Wikipedia (and mention them in individual suburb/locality articles) but not necessarily in this article. If you like, feel free to create a new article about the neighbourhoods/subdivisions/towns. Besides advertising is not a reliable source.
   Countercounterargument: Finding reliable sources about neighbourhoods/subdivisions/towns is a piece of cake.
   Countercountercounterargument: Great. If neighbourhoods/subdivisions/towns are cited in reliable sources then that's an argument to have a list on Wikipedia (and mention them in individual suburb/locality articles) but not necessarily in this article. If you like, feel free to create a new article about the neighbourhoods/subdivisions/towns.
6. Some neighbourhoods/subdivisions/towns are former suburbs/localities.
   Counterargument: Former suburbs/localities are listed in the Former suburbs and localities section of the article which should mention that they become a neighbourhoods/subdivisions/towns in the Fate column. Also a "Formed from" column will be added to the suburbs/localities table just like today's featured list does mentioning the neighbourhoods/subdivisions/towns it was formed from.
7. Many neighbourhoods/subdivisions/towns are used everyday in addresses, many are gazetted (see the list above) and some are well-bounded by natural features (e.g. Chevron Island).
   Counterargument: Everyday address use cannot be verified. Some neighbourhoods/subdivisions/towns are listed in the Queensland Government's Queensland Place Names database as "unbounded localities" but "unbounded localities" are no longer named. Some neighbourhoods/subdivisions/towns are well-bounded by natural features but that is original research found using the Queensland Globe or some other map. Wikipedia's content is determined by information previously published in a good source, rather than [...] the editor's interpretation based on but beyond what the source actually says.
   Countercounterargument: This indicates a serious misunderstanding of WP:RS. The gazetteer is not the only reliable source about geographical places.
   Countercountercounterargument: You misunderstand me. I argue that only places listed as suburbs/localities in the Queensland Government's Queensland Place Names database should be included in this article. I am not arguing that other sources (like the Australian Bureau of Statistics or the Council of the City of Gold Coast) are unreliable.
8. Historically this list has acquired neighbourhoods/subdivisions/towns by user contribution suggesting these places are significant.
   Counterargument: That selection criteria is ambiguous, subjective, and unsupported by reliable sources. Wikipedia's content is determined by information previously published in a good source, rather than the beliefs or experiences of its editors.

• Arguments to remove:

1. To meet the guideline for stand-alone lists by writing the article to satify the common selection criteria ― a short, complete list of every item that is verifiably a member of the group ― where items are suburbs/localities.
   Counterargument: I/Kerry Raymond tend to be indifferent to criteria as that is about satisfying editors rather than readers.
   Countercounterargument: That is an opinion; not an argument. Besides guidelines are supported by consensus.
2. None of the other lists of suburbs in Australia include neighbourhoods/subdivisions/towns.
   Counterargument: Magnetic Island is included on the List of Townsville suburbs to introduce the suburbs/localities located on the island and not the mainland which is part of the principle of least astonishment.
   Countercounterargument: I/New9374 accept your example but that other stuff exists in violation of policies and guidelines and not according to them. Besides the geographical location of a suburb/locality could be described by maps like the featured list List of counties in Florida does.
3. The list will then only include items at the Third-level administrative division (states and territories then local government area then suburbs and localities).

The third disagreement is whether to create a new standalone list article for neighbourhoods/subdivisions/towns. Kerry Raymond and The Drover's Wife argue not to create; New9374 is indifferent.

• Arguments not to create:

1. Neighbourhoods/subdivisions/towns will be out of any context without the suburbs/localities.
   Counterargument: Could provide context in lede and in a suburb column like the featured list List of municipalities in Florida does.
2. Casual readers won't understand why there are two articles when suburbs/localities and neighbourhoods/subdivisions/towns are the same thing to them.
   Counterargument: Could explain in the ledes like the featured lists List of counties in Florida and List of municipalities in Florida do.
3. Kerry Raymond and New9374 are unaware of any separate articles for Australian neighbourhoods/subdivisions/towns.
   Counterargument: Although there is no precedent, consensus can change and we should ignore precedent if it prevents us from making constructive edits. If I/New9374 were to create a new article about the neighbourhoods/subdivisions, I'd personally go through Articles for creation to ensure it is suitable for Wikipedia and is notable.
   Counterargument: You have failed to demonstrate that consensus has changed (or gain so much as a seconder).
   Countercounterargument: I am not arguing for creating a new standalone list article for neighbourhoods/subdivisions/towns so I don't need to demonstrate that consensus has changed. If I/New9374 were to create a new article about the neighbourhoods/subdivisions, I'd personally go through Articles for creation to ensure it is suitable for Wikipedia and is notable. Besides Wikipedia is not a democracy and so we are not voting.

Thank you, New9374 (talk) 03:33, 20 June 2016 (UTC)

The above somewhat misrepresents my views. While my preference is to keep the title simpler and consistent with the Category:Suburbs of the Gold Coast, Queensland by just using "suburbs" rather than "suburbs and localities" (which would be more consistent with the naming of the navbox), I can live with it either way (it might be good to be consistent with list/category/navbox). Re: neighbourhoods. Some of these are former suburbs, many of these are used in an everyday way as addresses as if they were suburbs, many are officially gazetted (see the list above) and although not officially bounded, some are well-bounded in practice by natural features (e.g. Chevron Island) and some of them have articles. Historically this list has acquired these neighbourhoods by user contribution suggesting these names are significant in the geography of the Gold Coast and they expected to find them here (indeed, some have been present in this article since it was first created in 2006). I propose they should be included but presented in some way that (like the present article) clearly shows they are not the official suburbs and bounded locations but shows how they relate to them. For example, Chevron Island can be presented as being part of Surfers Paradise by use of an additional column in the table. I see no reason to take information away from readers or hide it where they might not expect to find it, when it can be represented within the framework of the current article. And contrary to what is stated about , there are certainly such list articles including non-suburbs. As a simple example, Magnetic Island is included in the list of suburbs of Townsville, which it is not, but I think its presence in the list introducing the suburbs on Magnetic Island is more helpful to the reader than presenting Nelly Bay and Picnic Bay etc as being suburbs without indicating they are on the island and not on the mainland where a person might normally assume the suburbs of Townsville would be (which is part of the principle of least astonishment). Finally, in terms of priorities, I note that many of the suburb articles themselves could use a lot of work; many are little more than stubs. Kerry (talk) 04:42, 20 June 2016 (UTC)

I am sorry you feel the above somewhat misrepresents your views. I spent a lot of time and took a lot of care in writing it. I have added your additional arguments to the above and added my counterarguments. I hope you feel it accurately represents your views now. I still feel that we are at a standstill so I have sought an opinion from an uninvolved third editor. Thank you, New9374 (talk) 06:40, 20 June 2016 (UTC)

You just got an opinion from an uninvolved third editor, but apparently ignored it because you didn't like the answer. Long, argumentative responses that don't address the issues raised are unhelpful towards establishing consensus. Kerry's suggestion seems reasonable to me, and nowhere in that lengthy response does it really address why it wouldn't solve the issue entirely (or establish a logic for putting the information elsewhere). I will add two more things: firstly, the above indicates a serious misunderstanding of WP:RS (the gazetteer is not the only reliable source about geographical places, and finding reliable sources for articles about historical places is a piece of cake), and while you note that consensus can change, you have so far failed to demonstrate that it has (or gain so much as a seconder). The Drover's Wife (talk) 09:48, 20 June 2016 (UTC)

The Drover's Wife, third opinions must be neutral. You have had dealings here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here and here with Kerry that would bias your response. Nonetheless I did not ignore your argument, I included it in the summary and provided a counterargument just as I have with every argument Kerry has made and the three you just made. I am still seeking an opinion from an uninvolved third editor. Thank you, New9374 (talk) 10:37, 20 June 2016 (UTC)

We both edit on Queensland topics, and frequently disagree, too. Posting "counterarguments" in this manner does not assist in developing consensus, which you need to make the changes you wish to make (regardless of whether it is in the form of a new article or not) and do not presently have. This is not an appropriate way to approach wanting to make controversial changes to an article. The Drover's Wife (talk) 11:32, 20 June 2016 (UTC)

Let me be 100% clear about this. I did not solicit a response on this matter from User:The Drover's Wife or anyone else. Having written predominantly Australian topics for many years, of course I have had past interactions with many other Australian editors along the way (including TDW), sometimes we agree, sometimes we disagree, generally we converge on some kind of mutually acceptable solution. It doesn't alter the independence of their opinion. I had hoped our original conversations on this topic had the same goal of finding a mutually acceptable solution and was surprised to find it being labelled a dispute within such a short time. If you would like a wider range of opinions, why not solicit them at the Wikipedia:Australian Wikipedians' notice board? I suspect this article doesn't have a lot of active page watchers. Kerry (talk) 19:40, 20 June 2016 (UTC)

Thank you for clearing up your involvements. I will wait for the third opinion before soliciting opinions at the Wikipedia:Australian Wikipedians' notice board and following other dispute resolution processes. Thank you, New9374 (talk) 23:15, 20 June 2016 (UTC)

Reply to Request for Third Opinion

You already have a third opinion, that of User:The Drover's Wife. (If you choose to discount it as non-neutral, then it still counts as a third editor.) For that reason, I will be removing the request from the list. However, I will be providing my own opinions as an editor. The first issue has to do with naming. A contested Requested Move is the appropriate way of resolving this. The second has to do with whether to remove certain types of places, which appear to be unincorporated neighborhoods, from the list. My opinion is no. The list should include all of the places in the vicinity of Gold Coast that have articles, regardless of their status. The third was whether to create a separate list article. That is answered. If the entries are not removed from the list, there is no need to put them in another list. Robert McClenon (talk) 02:56, 22 June 2016 (UTC)

Firstly, I will list the article at Requested moves. Secondly, Robert McClenon, you provided no reason why the list should include neighbourhoods/subdivisions/towns other than "they should". Analogously, do you think that municipalities "should" be added to yesterday's featured list List of counties in New Jersey instead of in the stand-alone list List of municipalities in New Jersey? Thank you, New9374 (talk) 04:39, 22 June 2016 (UTC)

The reason why all of the types of suburbs should be listed in one article is that most editors don't know or care what the differences are. Robert McClenon (talk) 14:04, 22 June 2016 (UTC)

That's an appeal to popularity. New9374 (talk) 22:03, 22 June 2016 (UTC)

Requested move 22 June 2016

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Not moved. No support for this move. (non-admin closure). Anarchyte (work | talk) 07:02, 30 June 2016 (UTC)

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List of Gold Coast suburbs → List of suburbs and localities in the City of Gold Coast – (1) The local government area City of Gold Coast encompasses the city Gold Coast. Suburbs and localities are located within the local government area and not the city. So I request the title end with "in the City of Gold Coast" because it is more accurate and will clearly define the scope and selection criteria. (2) The gazetteer has made a distinction between suburbs and localities and so the distinction is important. It would be false to imply "every item on the list is a suburb in the City of Gold Coast" by including only the term "suburbs" in the title so I request the title include the term "suburbs and localities". See the Queensland Government's Queensland Place Names database. New9374 (talk) 04:52, 22 June 2016 (UTC)

• Oppose. Its not important to include localities in the title. Many people refer to localities as suburbs. Just make the distinction in the lead of the list. - Shiftchange (talk) 21:15, 28 June 2016 (UTC)
  • As above, the gazetteer has made a distinction between suburbs and localities and so the distinction is important. Besides who are the "many people" that refer to localities as suburbs? Could you please provide a source? Thank you, New9374 (talk) 22:26, 28 June 2016 (UTC)
    • Pretty much anyone who doesn't work for the gazeteer I think. Specifically, the many people who created all these articles Category:Lists of suburbs in Australia for a start. Australia Post mentions only suburbs and towns and not localities (yet I am sure they deliver mail to localities) here and here. If you login into your MyGov account, you will see they hold your address as suburbs/towns but no mention of localities for the purpose of tax, Medicare and Centrelink, etc. Kerry (talk) 08:22, 29 June 2016 (UTC)
      • Okay. I have been convinced by those sources and Wikipedia:Article titles. Thank you, New9374 (talk) 01:26, 30 June 2016 (UTC)
      • Shiftchange and Kerry, can we agree to rename the article "List of suburbs in the City of Gold Coast" then? New9374 (talk) 02:15, 30 June 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose. I agree with Shiftchange and Kerry. No need to go into excessive detail in the title, that's what the lead is for. Jenks24 (talk) 10:42, 29 June 2016 (UTC)
  • Jenks24, can we agree to rename the article "List of suburbs in the City of Gold Coast" then? New9374 (talk) 02:15, 30 June 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose per the rationale of Shiftchange, Kerry and Jenks24. The Drover's Wife (talk) 03:05, 30 June 2016 (UTC)
  • • I actually prefer "City of Gold Coast" rather "Gold Coast" because it does clearly define the extent of the coverage, whereas List of Brisbane suburbs is a grab-bag of many LGAs. Against that is my own argument about Category:Lists of suburbs in Australia which are generally not based on LGAs but seem to be based on contiguous urban areas radiating from a city/town centre. I can live with the simpler title if the lede is clear that it is City of Gold Coast. Kerry (talk) 06:55, 30 June 2016 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.