Talk:List of French monarchs/Archive 5
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| Archive 1 | ← | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 |
Earlier stuff
Emily: Whats all this fuss I keep hearing about fresh monarchs? How long does a monarch stay fresh, anyway? Why, I saw a perfectly lovely old queen on television just the other day. She didn't look like she was at all stale. And not at all saucy! Why, you replace one country's stale old monarch with a nice fresh one and they'll all end up wanting one. And we haven't enough to go around! I say stick with our everyday monarchs! Its terrible! the way they want to...what, what?!
Chevy: Miss Litella, that was French monarchs. Not fresh. French.
Emily: Oh, well thats different.
Chevy: Yes.
Emily: Nevermind.
So, anyway, would it be okay if I change the list so it starts with Verdun? I think one thing we did mostly agree on in that mess is that starting with Pepin the Short doesn't really make much sense. john 04:55 31 May 2003 (UTC)
Go for it, John User:kt2
This is the opening of a message labeled T-001 from User:Triton:
Copied from User talk:Eloquence for reference purposes:
- (Exact quote from User:Eloquence in discussion) - Specifically, the quite nice table at the UCW website [2] calls these two separate eras "The Old Frankish Kingdom" and "The Kingdom of France". Please try to work towards a compromise that takes this distinction into account, instead of making no distinction between the Frankish rulers and those who followed.
- (Response by User:Triton) - If you say that this list titled France's Kings and Rulers from the University of Washington HIST112 Medieval & Renaissance Europe Winter 2003 as found at [5] showing the two kingdoms, should be exactly what we place on the List of French monarchs at Wikipedia as a compromise that takes this distinction into account, instead of making no distinction between the Frankish rulers and those who followed, then in the spirit of cooperation, I will accept this and post the information.
Copied from: Talk:List of French monarchs/archive 4 for the purpose of responding:
- I am sorry Triton. Let me make sure I understand you. You are saying that your opinion is that this particular list should include a list of all the Frankish monarchs, as well as the French ones?
I am only trying to figure out what the problem is, because you didn't respond to any of the specific issues listed above. The article as it stands links (or should -- I will make sure) to the list on the "Frankish Monarchs" page. It explains the separation, and the contents of Professor O'Neil's list more than support the idea of separation. Could you please explain why this is unacceptable? Thanks! JHK
Reply from USER:Triton to JHK: - If you refer to the points made by Eloquence and my response to him, plus my response to an ensuing statement/set of questions regarding the List of French monarchs on this talk page (archive 4) by Ms. User:JHK immediately preceding her statement/questions above, in short it said:
- "it seems most sensible to post the list as presented by the University of Washington"
- "after someone inserts the Merovingians and does comments, I will look again when I came back and if I have questions I will leave them here on the talk page. "
Ms. User:JHK, ma'am, I don’t think anything could be more clear or precise than my reply that covered every single question you asked. However, I will gladly prepare the list as presented by the University of Washington and post it to the page. So that I do not mislead, if anyone does not want to insert Clodian, then I have no objection but I have no cause or qualifications to justify disagreeing with the University of Washington. I will even rewrite, to the best of my ability, the comments to be absolute NPOV and clarity if no one else wishes to do so as I suggested. This will take a little time as I am certainly no computer whiz. Thank you and may you have a joyful experience at Wikipedia in the spirit of User:Jimbo Wales/Statement of principles. Triton 11:12 31 May 2003 (UTC)
End of message T-001 from User:Triton:
I have started the work to convert and edit the list from the University of Washington. It is a big job what with doing my best links and name verifications but not as much as I had first thought and as such will have it ready for posting by late today. Thank you, please. Triton 14:39 31 May 2003 (UTC)
- If I have observed the somewhat messy discussion about the poor French monarchs correctly (and the most recent change on the main page), then the list should start with 943 (split of the realm with the Treaty of Verdun) and not include the Franks, correct? Just to make it clear, I think it's a good idea to differentiate between a) Frankish rulers on the one side and b) French and German rulers in two separate lines after 843. But from what I can see, this seems to be the consensus (finally). I am only asking because I am currently working on a more lucid list of the Frankish rulers; see User:Djmutex/Sandbox Frankish rulers, and I'd hate to see all the work duplicated. — djmutex 14:51 31 May 2003 (UTC)
As all can be aware from this ongoing discussion, the list to be posted under List of French monarchs is as precisely stated above from the University of Washington. If you were not party to the discussion and did not read it, then whatever editing you might do anywhere is of course your right as a Wikipedia user. It just means you will place more work on others to someday fix what might be wrong. I am dealing only, and have been for several days as detailed herein before-during-since the resolution on Clovis I, with the issue regarding what information will appear on the List of French monarchs. A separate article that deals with the various Franks or other parties who ruled over parts of what we know today as Germany is certainly a worthy task and I appreciate any efforts you make on that separate issue. Triton 15:32 31 May 2003 (UTC) --- Triton, it seems we are back where we started, because you understand the list differently from everybody else. This is why I asked the questions above very specifically, so you could have a chance to respond to what you specifically find wrong. Again, you refuse to work with anyone else; again, you refuse to make any attempt to consider anything that doesn't fit into your viewpoint. You also misrepresent what Eloquence said.
As I said above, and what, if you read what everyone else who has commented on the list but you agrees, the list says France starts with the Capetians. How can you say it should start with the Franks? JHK
Ms.User:JHK, ma'am, I am posting the list from the University of Washington. I never once said France starts with the Franks or anyone else. Thank you, may the Prophet bless you. Triton 16:48 31 May 2003 (UTC)
Can I just say that I'm absolutely confused at this point? I'm going to go add Blanche of Castile as Regent from 1226 to 1234, and hope this blows over. john 16:52 31 May 2003 (UTC)
Hey John -- which part is confusing? Triton is going to reduplicate the efforts of the people who created the varios lists of monarchs already on this site, and lift directly from a list belonging to a non-wikipedian that says what we've already said (and he disagrees with). He is then going to erase all the hard work that many others have done and replace it with a list that starts with the earliest Merovingians because they are French Monarchs, according to him and him alone, even though his list doesn't support this idea. I think it's pretty clear. If anyone disagrees with my understanding of the situation, I'd certainly like to hear why -- it would ease my mind about this project considerably JHK
- Yeah, that's what I was afraid of, but I was hoping that if I ignored it, it would go away. Sigh. john 17:06 31 May 2003 (UTC)
The position on this list was very clear and I am, as stated before, proceeding on that basis. Let us make certain that this situation is dealt with exactly as was outlined previously and that we all adhere to User:Jimbo Wales/Statement of principles on any issue. These principles certainly apply here and make sense. If there is a disagreement with the intrepretation of Mr. Wales statement or my actions, it can always be taken to him. Please, thank you. Triton 17:12 31 May 2003 (UTC)
Triton, what exactly are you saying here? Could you please explain, in detail, what exactly you plan to do, and what exactly is your justification for this? john 17:16 31 May 2003 (UTC)
- Now I'm really confused too. What I understand, Triton, is that you want to work on the List of French monarchs only. Fine; I am not planning to touch that page. But just to enlighten my poor confused mind, I don't understand what needs to be changed there anymore. Let me try to make clear, in simple words, what I thought was the consensus here otherwise.
- 1. The Franks are neither French, nor are they German. They are Franks. The Frankish kingdoms are common ancestry of France on the one hand and the Holy Roman Empire (Germany, if you want) on the other side. They do not belong on the List of French monarchs, nor do they belong on the List of German Kings and Emperors, since they precede both.
- As an side, my suggestion for a new list of French monarchs, separate from both the French and German lists, is at User:Djmutex/Sandbox Frankish rulers. I'd be grateful for comments whether other people consider that new format useful.
- 2. I therefore find the present List of French monarchs that starts after the Verdun split of 843 wonderful. The same should be done with the List of German Kings and Emperors, which needs a merge with that other List of Holy Roman Emperors, but that's an entirely different can of worms.
- As a result, I simply do not understand what you want to do now, Triton. Do you disagree with anything that I stated above? Do you want to copy the entire list from the University of Washington to the French Monarchs? That would include the Merovingians, which I thought was considered misleading in the discussion so far. If that is not what you want to do, do you want to copy the information from the list for the time after 843 only? If so, how does that differ from what is presently on the French list?
- Could you answer these questions instead of globally referring to Wikipedia policies, please, which does not really help the issue? Thank you. — djmutex 17:19 31 May 2003 (UTC)
Mr.User:John, sir and all others, I am sorry if you have not been following this enough to have read everything. Your questions have already been fully answered on this page talk page and/or its predecessor pages. Thank you, and may the Prophet bless you. Now, I do have to leave Wikipedia for a short time. I believe that nothing here will render the heavens and the earth asunder, is there? Nor will my departing for a reasonable period of time on a promise to return to deal with matters be a contravention of any policy. Will it? I do note others do that, frequently. However, in this case, as all has been dealt with in vast detail on these talk pages for anyone who cares to read it, then there is nothing I can add or for anyone to question until I've completed my promised work. Thank you all again, Triton 17:26 31 May 2003 (UTC)
- Wow, that was disingenuous. Good luck on your far-off mission, Triton, and may the Prophet grant peace to you and your clan. john 17:36 31 May 2003 (UTC)
- The wheels on the bus go 'round and 'round ... JHK
Notice from User:Triton: As stated on 17:26 31 May 2003 (UTC) above, all questions have already been fully answered by me on this talk page and/or its predecessor pages and that I am proceedng in a clearly defined and proper manner with my work on the List of French monarchs. This work will be finished in a reasonable length of time. Further, I plan to make contributions to many articles at Wikipedia and in an attempt to cooperate fully in any discussions, I will follow Mr. Wales words who said that wikipedia will be run in accordance with his User:Jimbo Wales/Statement of principles that includes using diplomacy consisting of a combination of honesty and politeness. As such, I think that everyone would concurr that standard norms for diplomacy in debate is a straightforward one at a time question/answer format used by most all debating forums in the civilized world. With more than one party asking a question to one person, diplomacy requires each person wait their turn. In order to ensure I follow Article 1. of Mr. Wales Statement of principles, and Do The Right Thing to preserve our shared vision for the NPOV and for a culture of thoughtful diplomatic honesty, I will wait for a response to my question before considering any another. Once one reply has ben posted, should there be a question then I will reply to it, and only it. I will not attempt to answer a multitude of questions or one question from a several users. I note, that other than some vague reference in a foreign language dictionary that I cannot read, not one party to the discussion on the List of French monarchs has chosen to answer my request for credible and verifiable references to support the statements they have made. And, while I may agree or disagree, I will not respond to anyone’s unfounded opinions. They are your opinions. I recognize the right for anyone to express an opinion, but they are exactly that: your opinions. I can only respond to matters of fact. In order that everyone equally follows the orderly Wikipedia courtesy that Mr. Wales rightfully demands of all contributors, one question clearly addressed to me will receive one answer before any other questions will be considered. If anyone posts another question before I have received an answer to mine, there will be no response to you under any circumstances unless you restate the question later on in the proper participant order. Any question that includes racial or ethnic slurs, is derogatory or demeaning in any manner or in any way is less than the etiquette Mr. Wales demands, will not be answered --ever. If you believe that my interpretation of User:Jimbo Wales/Statement of principles for diplomacy within proper and honest ask/answer debate is incorrect, you can certainly take up the issue with Mr. Wales for clarification. Thank you, may the Prophet bless each of those honorable contributors to this wonderful project called Wikipedia. Triton 17:57 1 Jun 2003 (UTC)
ATTENTION ALL INTERESTED WIKIPEDIANS!!!
In the interests of fair play and compromise, it has been suggested that there be a 'vote' for what exactly belongs on this page. Several options which have been discussed above and in the archived talk pages are listed below. Please add your name to the option you feel best, and feel free to add other options If I've left any out. Since this is more in the way of achieving compromise, more than one option may be selected. Thanks!
- Leave the page basically as it is, with explanatory introduction and lists of monarchs starting with the Carolingians:
- Leave the page basically as it is, with explanatory introduction and list beginning with Charles the Bald after 843:
- Leave the page basically as it is, with explanatory introduction and list beginning with the Capetians in 987:
- Supported by: JHK FearÉIREANN djmutex (consistency with new List of German Kings and Emperors), john, Martin, Kt²
- Opposed by: llywrch
- Rewrite the page to include the Merovingians in the list, but still explain that there is a difference between "traditionally considered" and "actually were":
- Convert the page to a list with no explanation, beginning with Clovis, broken down as per the UW list:
- Convert the page to a list with no explanation, beginning with Charles the Bald in 843, but linking to the Frankish monarchs page:
- Convert the page to a list with no explanations, beginning with the Capetians and linking to the Frankish monarchs page:
Thanks in advance for your opinions JHK 20:03 1 Jun 2003 (UTC)
Just to explain my vote, my preference is for a list starting in 843. I think that a list showing all of the Carolingians would be inappropriate - why was Pepin I any more a "French monarch" than Clovis? Starting in 987 would be alright, as well, but I still don't like the idea of 987 as some sort of enormous breaking point. Anyway, either of those would be acceptable, so long as we explain carefully what exactly we're doing. The other options I firmly oppose. john 22:30 1 Jun 2003 (UTC)
I'd like to explian my vote also. While tracing the birth of the modern French monarchy with the Treaty of Verdun can be persuasively argued, I feel that an explanation is needed for the layman why certain members of the Carolingian Dynasty are excluded. (e.g., "If this is the Carolingian Dynasty, then where's Charlemagne?") Further, it is not only the layman who thinks Clovis I founded the French Monarchy: IIRC, many French kings, in expressing their right to the throne, also expressed a claim back to Clovis' reign. (For some reason, monarchs are adverse to stating their claim to rule on the pragmatic argument, "I have more soldiers than anyone else, & have physical control of these fortresses, therefore I am king." Perhaps because that argument could be used by a rival to depose him thru the accumulation of more troops, & attempting to physically dispossess the incumbent of said fortresses. ;-) I'm not aware if Wikipedia has tackled the issue of the language of state legitimacy & succession. -- llywrch 17:42 2 Jun 2003 (UTC)
Why "monarchs"?
Since France has Kings only, and no French Queen has ever reigned, why is this a "List of French monarchs" rather than a "List of French Kings"? -- Nunh-huh 20:07, 11 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Dunno. Is it important? john 21:18, 11 Apr 2004 (UTC)
- Probably not, but it does seem peculiar. It only occurred to me as I was making a redirect of King of the French to here (on the assumption that no one was going to write an article contrasting King of the French with King of France... - Nunh-huh 00:24, 12 Apr 2004 (UTC)
France had a couple of Emperors. 217.140.193.123 16:16, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Somewhat POV presentation
French national identity. Since the 1990s, the very question of nationality, especially for nations who consider their foundations to be in the period from the 5th to 9th centuries, has come under fire. This re-examination has already resulted in several interesting studies (see below), some of which will surely lead to a further redefinition of what it means to be a nation, and how nationality can be better defined.
--Rephrased. The preceding formulation would better fit a general article on early Middle Ages than the list of French kings. Furthermore, it was POV in the sense that it implied that the foundation by Clovis is a significant belief of French identity, which is untrue. David.Monniaux 14:35, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Heir to the French Throne
As a matter of curiosity (and at the risk of adding more fuel to the fire), if the French were at all inclined to declare a monarchy again, who would have the best claim to the throne at present and why ? It might make an interesting addition to the article... -- Derek Ross | Talk 05:48, 2005 Jan 20 (UTC)
- It probably doesn't belong here, but I'm sure it's somewhere else in Wikipedia...probably pretender. The French could make anyone king, but if they were to do it on the basis of hereditary "claims", it would depend which "throne" they were "restoring". In the unlikely possibility that it would be Napoleonic Imperial throne, the current claimant is Charles Bonaparte. If it were the royal throne, there are two leading contenders, Henri, Comte de Paris, Duc de France, Orléanist pretender (i.e. descendant of Louis-Philippe), and Louis-Alphonse, Duc d'Anjou, the Legitimist pretender (i.e. the inheritor of the pretension of Henri, Comte de Chambord). The former having by far the more monarchist supporters, and the latter looking better in his sumptuous red Ruritanian uniform... - Nunh-huh 06:01, 20 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Thanks. I wasn't aware of the pretender article. It's very informative -- and hurrah for Ruritanian uniforms! Cheers -- Derek Ross | Talk 07:20, 2005 Jan 20 (UTC)
I think it would come down to which "throne" they would restore, if the Imperial one, then obviously it would be Charles Bonaparte. In the case of the "French King or King of the French" I would think the advantage would go to the Comte de Paris, simply because he is French, lives in France, speaks French, and the decendent he is from (Louis Phillipe) ruled lastly before the Duc d'Anjou's (Louis XIV). Plus he is nor french, lives in spain, and does not speak french.
Well here's something I think the Duc d'Anjou's claim is very much the same as the Comte de Pairs, but also thiers another claim, my claim to the French thrown. I'm a direct decendent of Charlemange through his son Charles the younger who was King of the Germans. If i was to tell you my family tree it would be from Charlemange, Charles The Younger, Rowland, Godfrey, Baudouin I Count of Flanders, Baudouin II Count of Flanders, Arnulf Count of Flanders, Baudouin III count of Flanders, Jean General of the French Kings Army, Sir Harlevin Viscount of Conteville, best freind of Robert Duke of Normany, and Husband of Harleve de Falaise (mother of William I of England) thier son Robert Count of Mortain, and Earl of Cornwall, William Count of Mortain, Earl of Cornwall, Adelm de Burgo married Agnes Princess of France, son Willim FitzAdelm de Burgo (the conqueror of Ireland) married the daughter of High King Rory of Ireland, son William de Burgh Lord of Connaught, son Richard "The Great" de Burgh Lord of Connaught, son Walter de Burgh Lord of Connaught Earl of Ulster, son Richard "The Younger" de Burgh Lord of Connaught Earl of Ulster, son Edmond de Burgh then I have a missing 14 generations i'm working on that, and then it starts up again with John Burk, (the name Burke is the Irish name for de Burgh by the Irish or either de Burc, and their name Burke is just another spelling of it like Bourke) son Timothy Burke, son John "The Laberor" Burke, son Daniel Lawrance Burke, son Robert Burke, son Thomas Burke, son Michael Burke. I'm Michael, and I'm claiming the French or German Throwe. email me at cadets/burkem@cbchs.org
Charles the Fat
Why is it that Charlemange is considered "Charles I King of France" but he is not numbered "Charles I (Holy) Roman Emperor"? (That is if you do consider the Holy Roman Empire to have been started pre Otto I, which I do) Anyone know why the numbering was like that?
The ordinal tradition was not in use in their days. It is a later invention. The ordinals came to use apparently in 15th (or already in 14th) century. These earlier monarchs were numbered using hindsight. However, the "correct" ordinals were important to kings of France who began to use them. Thus, they created an official canon of "rightful" kings. To them, French monarchy began from Clovis (whom they claimed as an ancestor in female line) - Carolingians were interlopers. Charles the Fat did not leave a good reputation. And he was a sideline person to reign France. Thus, he was left out from the canon. Whereas Charlemagne was really important, thus he was Charles I in that canonical numbering. The next was Charles II the Bald. Charles III the Simple was the last of that name before Capetians. And, Charles IV, youngest son of Philip IV, was the first Capetian with carolingian name Charles to ascend the throne of France. I try to say it again: These ordinals come from late medieval canon ordered by then kings. We cannot alter that fact. 217.140.193.123 19:10, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Charlemagne is also considered to be Holy Roman Emperor Charles I. Charles the Bald was Emperor Charles II, and Charles the Fat Emperor Charles III, making the 14th century Luxembourg Emperor Charles IV... john k 19:22, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)
The World Almanac lists as French kings: Charles I the Bald, Charles II the Fat, Charles III the Simple. Charlemagne is not listed because it was upon his death that what is now France was carved.--67.49.149.91 5 July 2005 01:12 (UTC)
The World Almanac is hardly a definite source. Charles the Fat is not traditionally given a number. Charles the Bald is "Charles II" and Charlemagne is "Charles I." This is the standard nomenclature. john k 5 July 2005 01:44 (UTC)
I think Charles the Fat should have a number. Why not? --SNN2 (talk) 03:27, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
Anyway I'm renumbering them. Undo it if you like. --SNN2 (talk) 03:28, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
Erase republics?
The republics should not be included in a list of monarchs. These sections should be collapsed into simple links to the first and second republics or replaced with Interregnum.
I fail to see what, if anything, it hurts to have them listed. Especially since the one and only president that the Second Republic had, ended up being the ruler of the Second Empire, so there is just a bit of a connection. ~Tate
Charles the Simple article
Can someone change the mention of an "Edward I of England" to what he really was "Edward the Elder" Since they are differnt monarchs and ruled far apart from each other. It wasnt until a few minutes after reading this article that I realized he couldnt possibly have married the daughter of the actual Edward I of England.
and under Louis VI it says that his first son, Phillip was someone king of France?
Philippe (1116 - October 13, 1131), king of France (1129-1131)
I'm not sure to understand
I don't understand why the Merovingians kings are not considered kings of France ... since they ruled France (Gaul) ...... The (will-be) French people and the lands in France were ruled by the Merovingian kings so they were kings of France-Gaul, right ? They were the creators of that kingdom that will be divided later in 843, so what's the problem ? ...
BTW :
"In addition to the monarchs listed below, the Kings of England and Great Britain from 1422 to 1801 also claimed the title of King of France. Initially, this had some basis in fact - Henry VI of England had been recognized by his grandfather Charles VI as heir to the French throne under the terms of the 1420 Treaty of Troyes, and most of Northern France was under English control until 1435"
If we forget the fact that Charles VI was half-mad, maybe ...
according to Henry_VI_of_England, Henry was Crowned, and so should be in this list.
I can see the gap in the dates in the current list, but this guy should fill it.
Conglacio 23:05, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
- I see no gap and an agreement with a mad contractant has no value anyway, right ?
waggg 02:30, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
Late to the party, but I think later French legal theory would say that Charles, mad or not, had no right to change the order of succession - according to most later theories, the French law of succcession was ordained by God, and could not be changed by any man. When Charles VI died, the Dauphin is king automatically, and there's nothing the king can do to change that. This theory created a lot of problems during the War of the Spanish Succession, because (more or less) the French had difficulty promising Philip V's renunciation of the French throne because they (more or less) thought he didn't have the right to do so. But even if the renunciations are valid, note that in this case it is Philip himself who is renouncing, which is quite different from Charles VI disinheriting his son. Also, Henry VI was crowned, but not in Reims - he had to be crowned in Paris, and I believe this was only after Charles had already been crowned in Reims.
I suppose Charles VI might have been able to claim his son was a bastard (and I believe this was done), but even that wouldn't have made Henry V his successor. It would have, if accepted, made the Duke of Orleans (then a prisoner in England) king. john k 00:13, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
Let me chime in as well:
- Charles VI's madness or rather his mental illness (switching from rage to depression) has no impact on whether the Treaty of Troyes was legal, as Charles' wife Isabeau and the official regent, the Duke of Burgundy were involved as well.
- Charles VII indeed was declared a bastard by his own mother - or at least that was spread.
- Henry V was regent of France for his father-in-law 1420-1422 but predeceased him. Charles VI was then succeeded by Henry's baby son Henry VI, who thus was King of England and of France.
- Henry VI does not appear in the list because he is considered an interloper (and because he effectively didn't rule France because of his age) but that shouldn't be interpreted as him not having been legally King of France. Whether he was the legitimate, rightful king is another matter but legally he was the King for some time. (And his successors in England upheld that claim until 1801)
Str1977 (smile back) 09:39, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
As for the Merovingians (and Carolingians), they are not included in this list for reason of organisation, putting all rulers of the Frankish Kingdom before 843 into one article/list separate from the French and the German line (to which they could be included). Str1977 (smile back) 09:41, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
- Henry VI must appear in this list. He was crowned King of France, the son of two legal claimants, had huge parts of the country ruled in his name and was contested only by a bastard. Even Charles VII considered dropping his claim because he knew Henry had more legal entitlement. Not including Henry is like saying William I was never King of England. The only difference is that William's invasion stuck and Henry's didn't, which shouldn't be an issue at all. --Tefalstar (talk) 00:12, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
In German use there is a big difference between the Merovingian/Carolingian kingdom (Frankenreich) and the later France (Frankreich) since both Germany's and France's kingship is based on it. Making Clovis a French king is the same logic as making Charlemagne the first German king. Both views exist. Generally speaking the Carolingians aren't yet viewed as German rulers so it should be the same with France. Why should France have the right to claim the former Frankish kingdom as theirs and not Germany? The kingdom was divided.--MacX85 (talk) 23:11, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
Problems
This list has several problems. Some of the links link to disambiguation pages and there is inconsistency in the naming of monarchs: some are given numbers, some nicknames. Its also as if we don't know any death dates for monarchs before Hugh Capet. These ought to be fixed before this becomes a "featured list"! Srnec 04:30, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
Henry VI was king of England and king of France as the de jure monarch of france he was ordained by the law to hold this position while in the other hand charles was a rebel of the soveriegn i.e henry VI since he wasnt ordained by the law to hold the position of king and wasnt even allowed to any legistlation to de facto of the south.Henry VI was the therotical monarch of france in other words from 1422 to 1429.The whole country would be seen as his de jure even though in practice it is held by rebels in the south.Charles VII was able to crown himeself legaly in 1429 so he took the de jure possition held by Henry VI earlier.Henry VI WAS CROWNED IN 1431 WAS AS A MERE GESTURE TO REGAIN HIS OLD DE JURE POSSETION FROM THE NEW OFFICIAL KING OF FRANCE CHARLES VII WHO SUCCSESFULLY FULFILLED THE 8 TH SACRAMENT.the situation would be looked upon as the english occupying the north but not holding it under soveriegn suzzerity anymore since it was now under the therotical control of now charles VII and the realism of a union between the 2 countries earlier from 1422 to 1429 was now dimminished.after 1429 Henry vi would be a claimaint rather then the soveriegn of the country anymore since he lost the possition to rebels whom wernt even formally regognized as a seperate monarchy by law or papacy.pope martin V was an english supporter to the war rather the france until formally regognizing france as a seperate monarachy in 1534.henry vi can be said to be a titular king of france not reigning since he was in infancy but dosent mean he is a pretender,he is an official french monarch.henry vi of england could also be called henry ii of france but the reason why french writters didnt call him that title is because if they were to call there 2nd henry henry iii of france then it would have undermined the legitimacy of the valious claim thus calling themselves rebels as if charles usurped the futur crown of henry vi and declaring themselves as an unofficial monarchy under the de jure rule of england.in theroy there are 3 henrys whom were kings of france.henry vi is even a dauphine when upon his birth in 1421 until 1422 the 13th of august he was given the title dauphine count of valentoise and diose since he was the heir aperant.the regents for henry wernt only regents of his possetions in the realm of france they were the official regency goverment in the whole country and were supported by the estates general in paris.john the duke of bedford is the official ruler or regent of france not charles.charles only assumed de facto control of the south without permission from the official regency goverment.
because henry vi was crowned after charles vii dosent mean he is not king of france.
official king of france 1422 to 1429.claimaint after 1429 corination in 1431 in support by the papacy unti lost in 1434.--HENRY V OF ENGLAND (talk) 06:36, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
DIAGRAM
I've moved this diagram fromt he article to here, it starts from a different pointin historty for starters. It makes the article way too long aswell. If any one thinks otherwise just say Sotakeit 09:41, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
450- Merovech, local King.
I
451-Childeric I (437-482) local King.
I
482-Clovis I (466-511), King of the Franks, conquerst Gaul
I converts to Catholicism, codifies Salic Law.
I
I_______________________________________________
I I I I
Theuderic I Chlodomer Childebert I Clotaire I
(? – 534) (+532) (? -558) (497-561)
King Reims King Orleans King Paris King Soissons
511-534 511-532 511-558 511-561
___________________________________I___________________
I I I I
Chilperic I Charibert Sigebert I Guntram
(539-584) (517-567) (535-575) (545-592)
King Soissons King Paris King Reims King Orleans
561-584 561-567 561-575 561-592
m. Fredegund m. Brunhilda
I I
I Childebert II
I (570-595)
I King Austrasia
I _______I__________
I I I
I Theudebert II Theuderic II
I (+612) (587-613)
I King Austrasia King Burgundy 595-613
I 595-612 King Austrasia 612-613
I I
I Sigebert II
I (608-613)
I King Austrasia & Burgundy 613
Clotaire II (584-629)
King Neustria 584-629
King Austrasia 613-623
King Burgundy 613-629
________I________________
I I
Cheribert II (618-632), Dagobert I (603-639)
King Aquitaine 629-632 King Austrasia 623-634
King Neustria & Burgundy 629-639
_____________________________I___________________
I I
Clovis II (637-658) Sigebert III (630?-656)
King Neustria 639-658 King Austrasia 634-656
_____I_______________________________ I__________________
I I I I I
Clotaire III Childeric II Theuderic III I Dagobert II Childebert the Adopted
(652-673) (653-675) (? –691) (650-679) son of mayor Grimoald
King Neustria King Austrasia King Neustria King Austrasia (?-661)
658-673 662-675 675-691 676-679 King Austrasia
King Austrasia King Neustria King Austrasia 656-661
661-662 673-675 679-691
I I I
Clovis III I Clovis IV (682-695)
King Austrasia I King of Franks
675-676 I 691-695
I I
I Childebert III,
I (683-711)
I King of Franks
Chilperic II 695-711
(? -720) I
King of Franks Dagobert III (?-715) Clotaire IV (?-720)
715-721 King of Franks 711-15 King of Austrasia 717-720
I I
Childeric III Theuderic IV
(? – 752) (? – 737)
King of Franks King of Franks
743-751 721-37
Last Merovingian king.
I
Theuderich
X
751-Pippin III, The Younger (714-768), first Carolingian King
I
I
768-Charles I (Charlemagne) (742-814), Holy Roman Emperor
I (HRE) 800-814
I
769-Louis I, The Pious, (778-840), HRE 814-840
I____________________________________________
I I I
840-Lothair I 841- Charles II, 843- Louis II,
(795-855), The Bald, The German
HRE 843-55 (823-877) (804-876)
I HRE 875-77 HRE 855-75
I King West Franks. King East Franks
I I after Treaty Verdun
I_____________ I I
I I I I
Louis II, Lothair II I I
Holy Roman I I
Emperor I I
__________________________I I
I I
877-Louis II, The Stammerer, (846-879), I
King West Franks until death. I
I_________________________________ I
I I I I
879-Louis III, Carloman Charles III, I
(863-882) ( ? – 884) The Simple I
King with Carloman (879-929) I
I__________I___
_____________________________________________I I
I I I
884-Charles III, Louis, The Younger, I
The Fat (832-888) (? -882) I
Holy Roman King East France I
Emperor 881-887 876-882 I
King West Franks 884-887, I
East 882-887. I
X I
887-Odo,Eudes, (860-898), son Robert, The Strong, I
selected King by nobles. I
Ranulf II Duke Aquitaine I
________________________________________________I
I
898-Charles III, The Simple, (879-929), King until 922
I_____________________________________________
X I
911-Robert I (865-923), brother of Odo, King by nobles. I
X I
923-Rudolf, Duke of Burgundy, (? - 936), King by nobles. I
__________________________________________________I
I
936-Louis IV (920-954), King until death.
I
954-Louis V (967 – 987), King until death leaving no heirs. Last
Carolignian king.
X
987-Hugh Capet (938-996), son of Hugh, the Great, and Hedwig,
I daughter of Henry I of Germany. Elected King
I by nobles. Start Capetian dynasty.
I
996-Robert II, (972-1031), Son of Hugh Capet and Adelaide of
I Aquitaine. King until death.
I
1031-Henry I (1008-1060), King until death.William VI, The Eagle,
I Duke Aquetaine.
I
1060-Phillip I (1052-1108), King until death. William the Conqueror
I (1028-1087), Duke of Normandy,
I invades England 1066 becomes
I William I King of England.
I Starts primogeniture inheritance.
1108-Louis VI (1081-1137), King until death.
I
1137-Louis VII, The Younger (1120-1180), King until death.
I Marries Eleanor of Aquetaine
I who had inherited Aquitaine from William X on
I his death 1154. Eleanor annuls marriage and
I marries Henry II future King of England giving
I five sons including John, of England; Henry, The
I Young; Richard I, The Lion Heart.
I
1180-Phillip II, Augustus (1165-1223), King until death.
I
1223-Louis VIII, The Lion (1187-1226)
I
1224-Louis IX, St. Louis (1214-1270)
____I_________________________________
I I I
Phillip III, Four other boys, Robert, Count of Clermont
The Bold , five girls I
(1245-1285) I
I I
I Louis I, Duke of Bourbon
I I
I Jaques de Bourbon
I I
I Jean de Bourbon
I I
I Louis de Bourbon
I I
I Jean de Bourbon
I I
I Francois de Bourbon
I I
I Charles IV, Duke of Bourbon
I I
I Antoine de Bourbon
I I___________
I_________________________________________ I
I I I
Phillip IV, The Fair, (1269-1314) Charles III, Valois I
____I________________________________ I I
I I I I I I
Louis X, Phillip V, Charles IV, Isabel I I
Quarreler The Tall The Fat m. Edward II I I
(? -1316) (1293-22) (1294-1328) of England I I
King King King I I I
1314-1316 1316-1322 1322-1328 I I I
I Had girls Had girls Edward III I I
John (1312-77) I I
King 1316 Claims French I I
Throne 1337. I I
starts 100 I I
Years War. I I
______________________________________________I I
I I
1328- Phillip VI, of Valois, (1293-1350), King I
1328-1350, Starts Valois dynasty. I
I I
1350- John II, The Good, (1319-1364), I
King (disputed by Edward III) until death. I
I I
1364- Charles V, The Wise, (1338-1380), I
King (disputed) until death. I
I_________________________________ I
I I I I
1380- Charles VI, 7 other Louis of Valois, I
The Well Beloved, Duke of Orléans I
The Mad, (1368-1422) (1372-1407) I
King until Death. ____I__________ I
I I I I
I Charles, John, I
I Duke of Count of I
I Orléans Angoulême I
I I (1394– 1465) I
I I____________ I I
I I I I
1429- Charles VII, The Victorious, (1403-1461), I I I
I Revolts against Henry VI I I I
I of England who had gained I I I
I French throne by treaty with I I I
I Charles VI. King until death. I I I
I Consecrated with help of Joan I I I
I of Arc, helps end 100 y war. I I I
1461- Louis XI, The Prudent, (1423-1483), King I I I
I until death. I I I
I I I I
1483-Charles VIII, The Affable, (1470-1498), I I I
king until death. I I I
No living heirs at his death. I I I
_________________________________________I I I
I I I
1498-Louis XII, Father of the People, I I
(1462-1515), king until death. Had 2 daughters. I I
________________________________________________I I
I I
1515-Francis I (1495-1547) I
I I
1547-Henry II (1519-1559), King until death. I
I_______________________________________ I
I I I I
1559- Francis II 1560- Charles IX 1574- Henry III I
(1544-1560) (1550-1574) (1551-1589) I
King until death King until death. King until death. I
by ear infection, Illeg son Charles Last Valois King. I
brain abcess. (1573-1650). I
No children. I
____________________________________________________I
I
1589- Henry IV, (1553-1610), First Bourbon king 1589-1610
I Ninth cousin of Francis II, Brother-in-law to Charles IX and Henry III.
I
1610- Louis XIII, The Just, (1601-1643)
I___________________________________________________
I I
1643- Louis XIV Philippe I, Duke of Orleans
The Sun King, (1638-1714) I
King 1643-1714 I
I Philippe II , Duke of Orleans
Louis, The Grand Dauphin I
(1661-1711) I
I Louis of Bourbon, Duke of Orleans
Louis, Duke of Burgundy I
(1682-1712) I
I Louis Philippe I, Duke of Orleans
I I
I Louis Philippe (II.) Joseph, Duke of Orleans
I I
1723-Louis XV, The Well Beloved, (1710-1774 I
I king until death. I
I 1714- Phillip II, Duke of I
I Orleans (1674-1423) I
I makes self regent until death I
I over 5 year old Louis XV. I
I I
Louis, dauphine de France (1729-1765) I
I_______________________________________________ I
I I I I I
1774- Louis XVI, (1754-1793), king until I 6 More I I
I guillotined in French I I I
I Revolution started 1789, ends I I I
I early modern & ancient regime I I I
I I I I
I I I I
1793- Louis XVII (1785-1795), I I I
son Louis XVI and Marie Antoinette I I I
daughter of Philip V of Spain,king I I I
till death in Republic prison. I I I
____________________________________I I I
I I I
1795- Louis XVIII (1755-1824) I I
King 1814-1824 I I
______________________________________________I I
I I
1824- Charles X, (1757-1836), King until 1830 I
I_______________________________________ I
I I I
1830- Louis XIX, (1755-1844), Charles I 1830- Louis-Philippe I.
Ferdinand, duc de Berry, I (1773-1850)
abdicates 20 minutes after his father I King of the French1830-1848
Henri Charles, comte
de Chambord, (1820-1883)
claimant as King Henry V
Carlo Buonaparte
________________________I__________
I I
1799- Napoleon I, (1769-1821), Louis Bonaparte
after French Revolution, I
Ruler French Republic I
1804 crowns himself Emperor I
I I
Napoleon II 1852- Napoleon III (1808-1873)
heir, did not rule President 1849-1852
Emperor 1852-1870
Is this diagram still used in anyway. It does contain errors (and puts forth some opinions as facts) and if it is still used I would correct these, if no one minds. Str1977 (smile back) 09:43, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
I have done some correcting in the Merovingian section and some re 1830. Enough for now. Str1977 (smile back) 13:46, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
Portrait of Henry III
Hello, I just wanted to mention that the picture of "Henry III" is not the portrait of the king but the one of his younger brother François Hercule duke of Anjou. (Henry III was duke of Anjou before he became king, that's where the confusion may come from).
Louis XIX, Henri V and Phillipe VII
If you let Louis XIX in as King of France (15-20 minutes), and Louis XVII (NEVER), you have to have Henri V, who was technically king for between a week and ten days in 1830 and is aknowledged as such by the French government, and Phillipe VII, who was technically king for a day between Louis Phillip's abdication and his mother's being kicked out of the general assembly and the formal establishment of the second republic.
Henri and Phillipe spent most of their lives as "pretenders" but they were indeed, however briefly, genuine monarchs. I added Henri V but not Phillipe VII.
- I don't think anyone believes that adding Henri V or Philippe VII is vandalism. On the other hand, I don't think it is necessarily a good idea. Louis XVII's claim to be king was retrospectively justified when Louis XVIII was restored. I'm less certain about Louis XIX, but he usually is listed (dead hand of tradition, bleh). Regards, Angus McLellan (Talk) 13:55, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
Henri V arguably should be included. Philippe VII I dont' think should be, and, at any rate, should not be called Philippe VII, but "Louis Philippe II," his orleanist name. "Philippe VII" is what he was known as to legitimists during his notional "reign" from 1883-1894. That being said, I think that Louis XIX and Louis XVII should probably be taken out as well, and that all these questionable rulers should only be mentioned in footnotes. I would note, though, that I've never heard Henry V acknowledged as a King by the French government. It is arguable that he was king, but I've never seen any official acknowledgement of such. I don't think that we should include any dubious kings, at any rate. We should have Louis XVI, Napoleon, Louis XVIII, Charles X, Louis Philippe, and Napoleon III. Louis XVII, Napoleon II, Louis XIX, Henry V, and Louis Philippe II should be relegated to footnotes. john k 17:50, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
- I've added links to the pretenders at the end of the list. I have no opinion about includiong pre-1870 ones within the list. jnestorius(talk) 22:23, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
Quick note about possible vandalism on the page: at the bottom of the later pretenders section is a mention of an Elijah Shalis, with no links, references, or much credibility. I've added a hidden comment, but I think the list item should be removed.--4.243.134.91 (talk) 09:14, 17 February 2009 (UTC)
Images
Does anybody else think that using images in the series that look like Image:Philippe Ier.jpg is unwise and should cease? Srnec 03:19, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
- If they're the best image available (i.e. most reliable, most clear, most descriptive of the person), why not? If you object, find some better images of the relevant people (e.g. Image:Philippe4-1.jpg). Michael Sanders 13:41, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
- I agree with Srnec. Pictures like that belong, if anywhere, in the trivia section of the article, specifically labelled as later fantasy, and dated. At the head of an article, or in an infobox, they are among the most childish and unencyclopedic features of Wikipedia. They actively mislead many users, who aren't given any help in judging whether the images may offer real evidence about the person concerned. But Wikipedia uses thousands of such images, and it will be a hard task to clean them out. Andrew Dalby 21:56, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
- If it is the best picture available, then it is hardly 'childish and unencyclopaedic'. It is simply the best and most reliable image of what the person looked like. If you consider it inappropriate, you find a better picture to improve the quality of the article, you don't remove a picture and give the reader no conception of what the person looked like, or was considered to look like by those closest to him or her chronologically. Michael Sanders 22:50, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
- It is not reliable at all. It has no correspondance to how the person actually looked. That's the point. The picture itself gives the reader "no conception of what the person looked like." Srnec 04:29, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
- If it is the best picture available, then it is hardly 'childish and unencyclopaedic'. It is simply the best and most reliable image of what the person looked like. If you consider it inappropriate, you find a better picture to improve the quality of the article, you don't remove a picture and give the reader no conception of what the person looked like, or was considered to look like by those closest to him or her chronologically. Michael Sanders 22:50, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
- I agree with Srnec. Pictures like that belong, if anywhere, in the trivia section of the article, specifically labelled as later fantasy, and dated. At the head of an article, or in an infobox, they are among the most childish and unencyclopedic features of Wikipedia. They actively mislead many users, who aren't given any help in judging whether the images may offer real evidence about the person concerned. But Wikipedia uses thousands of such images, and it will be a hard task to clean them out. Andrew Dalby 21:56, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
- How do you know it is 'not reliable at all' and 'has no correspondance to how the person actually looked'? First of all, that would appear to be your opinion. Second of all, if there are no surviving images of a person from his or her own time, then one presumes that the images produced by those closest chronologically to the person are most reliable, since those artists would have more knowledge of what the person looked like than would a later artist. So, what's your basis for believing the pictures you object to are not reliable? Michael Sanders 14:31, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
- We're not talking about pictures painted within living memory here, which might possibly resemble the subject, but ones produced many generations afterwards. Idealised representations at best, and completely imaginary at worst. But let's not get off track: if you think the pictures are accurate, where's the source that says so? Angus McLellan (Talk) 16:38, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
- How do you know it is 'not reliable at all' and 'has no correspondance to how the person actually looked'? First of all, that would appear to be your opinion. Second of all, if there are no surviving images of a person from his or her own time, then one presumes that the images produced by those closest chronologically to the person are most reliable, since those artists would have more knowledge of what the person looked like than would a later artist. So, what's your basis for believing the pictures you object to are not reliable? Michael Sanders 14:31, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
Where's the source that says it's not? I'm working on the premise that if a picture purports to represent a person, and there is no better imagery of the person, then the image must be taken as the best image of that person. That's how most encyclopaedia's work - they show the best available image of a person, and if they can't get a lifelike image, they get the nearest thing to a lifelike image. As these are. So whilst I wouldn't advise using the portrait in the protested series of Louis IX in place of the lifelike statue of him (because the statue is contemporary and considered lifelike), in the case of Louis VII or Philip I - where there are no better images on wikipedia (so, as I have said, the impetus would be on those editors who object to obtain other images - statues, for example) - these pictures are the best we have, and the closest to contemporary, so - in the absence of better - are what we use. Michael Sanders 17:23, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
- I'd try an appeal to common sense, but that's not going to work, is it? Adding an imagined portrait, just for the sake of an image, isn't helping the reader. A contemporary image, even if it may no be a life-like one, represents how the subject was seen, or wished to be seen. This is an very good image of Charlemagne, far better than the coronation one that graces the article now. It tells the reader something about the subject. Illustrations for the sake of mere decoration are waste of everyone's time. Angus McLellan (Talk) 18:38, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
- I should think that a standardized portrayal of a figure of whom no images from the time they were alive survive would, at the very least, give one an idea of the iconography that is used to represent that person. john k 22:01, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
- But look at the various images in the series: they are almost identical to one another. The iconography does not tell us anything about the individuals or about a later author's impression of them, since it is obvious that nothing real about the individuals influenced him (see John I of France). Srnec 02:40, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
- And you know perfectly well that John I is an obvious exception - no one would say with a straight face that it was a credible representation of a 5 day old baby. Does that make the others inaccurate? And, "they look almost identical to one another." 1) Opinion. 2) They are a family. And quite a few contemporary representations of them look similar to each other. And it does a greater disservice to the reader to give them no idea at all of what the person looked like than to show them a flawed representation. Michael Sanders 15:54, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
- What is the purpose of a representation if it is not credible? Does that make the others inaccurate? Not in itself, but it certainly hints at the authors lack of care about actuality in making them, doesn't it? Of course their similarities may be a matter of opinion, but if you disagree, that is just as much opinion! So what's your point? And it is only your opinion, and one I strongly disagree with, that "it does a greater disservice to the reader to give them no idea at all of what the person looked like than to show them a flawed representation." In fact, I would go so far as to aver that your statement runs contrary to Wikipedia's spirit of verifiability and accuracy. A flawed representation is worse than no representation because it does not merely leave the reader uninformed, but misinformed. Srnec 23:34, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
- But look at the various images in the series: they are almost identical to one another. The iconography does not tell us anything about the individuals or about a later author's impression of them, since it is obvious that nothing real about the individuals influenced him (see John I of France). Srnec 02:40, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
- I should think that a standardized portrayal of a figure of whom no images from the time they were alive survive would, at the very least, give one an idea of the iconography that is used to represent that person. john k 22:01, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
Article formatting
There are three aspects of the current format of the articles with which I take issue:
- Images: as stated in the preceding discussion, the 16th-century images are not very good and it would be better to have no image than those images.
- Infobox: the infoboxes do not seem to me to be of much use since all the information they contain is so easily accessible in the article itself. If, like the philosopher infoboxes for instance, they contained information not easily uncoverable in the body text, they would be more useful, but as they are now, they do not.
- Lead: the emboldened text that begins each article often follows the style "[Name] [Ordina] of [Epithet] France ... was the King of France ..." I find this wording redundant and out of step with most reference sources. I would suggest "[Name] [Ordinal] ..., called [Epithet], was the King of France ..."
I post this here because arguments have already begun concerning these issues at Talk:Louis VII of France, Talk:John I of France, and Talk:Philip III of France and it is more efficient to try and get an agreement that would apply across the board. Srnec 12:54, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
I much agree with the last point on the leads. "Louis XIV (1638-1715) was King of France" should be the form. john k 15:02, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
- A good image representative of what the person was believed to look like at a time closest to the person living is better than no image at all. At best, it can be based on genuine knowledge of what the person looked like, and thus end up showing a good depiction of what the person looked like. At worst, it shows what the person was thought to look like at the time of the image creation, or acts as a cultural representation of the person, and is better than nothing.
- Infoboxes, like succession boxes, are in articles as reader aids and conveniences - it allows the reader to look up pieces of information immediately in places where s/he knows they will be. Infoboxes are a commonly accepted en.wikipedia practice, for those reasons
- Wikipedia:Lead section#Bold title: "The subject of the article should be mentioned at the first natural place that it occurs in the prose, preferably in the first sentence, and should appear in bold face. The name of the subject is usually identical to the page title, although it may appear in a slightly different form from that used as the title, and it may include variations." In the case of Philip III, say, the subject is not Philip III: it is Philip III of France (i.e. that is what he is always called by scholars and non-scholars when they are not calling him Philip the Bold); Philip III is Philip III of France, Philip III of Burgundy, Philip III of Spain, Philip III of Macedon, and possibly others. In the case of royalty/feudal nobility, the place they ruled is in historical usage firmly part of their name, as much as the ordinal (unless they are better known by name and epithet, e.g. Philip the Good). So in this case, the appropriate form would either be "[Name] [Ordinal] of France, called [Name] the [Epithet]", or ("in a slightly different form from that used as the title"), "[Name] [Ordinal], King of France/of the Franks/of France and Navarre, called [Name] the [Epithet]" Either way, there will be what you perceive as redundancy with the repetition of "was King of France from ..."; however, the manual of style is quite clear, so I fail to see it as appropriate to leave out the fairly integral part of the name, i.e. where Philip was the third of. Michael Sanders 23:11, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
Michael, Wikipedia:Lead section#Bold title specifically says that the name of the subject is not necessarily identical to the page title. And the subject is, indeed, "Philip III", even though that name is ambiguous. "Philip III of France" in the opening is both awkward and unnecessary, since the article says immediately thereafter that he was a king of France. john k 23:58, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
- I have to say that, whilst understanding Michael's concerns, I agree with the proposed "new" wording, and indeed that is how I have always begun monarch articles myself. (I was the one who kicked off many of the English kings' articles.) Deb 16:44, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
- So what, then, is the point of the Manual of Style? Or the 'guidelines' on naming conventions? Were they written simply to prove that wikipedia is not paper? Because no-one appears to actually pay any attention to them. WP:LEAD says:
- "The subject of the article should be mentioned at the first natural place that it occurs in the prose, preferably in the first sentence, and should appear in bold face. The name of the subject is usually identical to the page title, although it may appear in a slightly different form from that used as the title, and it may include variations. For example, in the article "United Kingdom":
The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland (usually shortened to the United Kingdom or UK) occupies part of the British Isles in northwestern Europe ..."
- So this is a case obviously covered by the Manual of Style: we begin the article by writing what is, for a monarch, the full formal name - [Name] [Ordinal of [Country]. Just as the United Kingdom article, according to the sample, should begin as such: even if "it is clear from the context" that it refers to the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, and not that of Portugal, Brazil and the Algarves. The notice at the top of every MoS page reads, "This page is part of the Manual of Style, and is considered a guideline for Wikipedia. The consensus of many editors formed the conventions described here, and Wikipedia articles should heed these guidelines. Before making any major changes to these guidelines, please use the discussion page to ensure that your changes reflect consensus." So is that notice wrong? Has consensus changed, leaving the Manual out of date? Because, if so, the issue should be raised properly, so that the Manual can be properly changed to reflect the consensual opinion that an abbreviation in the first sentence is acceptable, instead of being left to a cabal here. And if not, is it really so much trouble to simply give the articles the small additional piece of formality that the very guidelines by which we write articles demands? Michael Sanders 21:21, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
- Name Ordinal of Country is not the "full formal name" of the monarch. It is a made up wikipedia usage whose purpose is to disambiguate. The full formal name of Louis XIV, for instance, is either "Louis XIV," or else "Louis XIV, by the grace of God, King of France and Navarre." john k 15:33, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
- No, Name Ordinal of Country is the full formal name as traditionally used by historians - which, of course, is not the 'real' formal name of the monarch, because monarchs don't get such things historically. Nonetheless, any historian will formally describe a monarch, when introducing him or her, as 'Who the what of where', because that is the formal manner of referring to deceased monarchs in historical works. Michael Sanders 16:31, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
- It is a formal usage, but there are many other ways a monarch may be introduced depending on context. For example, "Roger II, King of Sicily" or "the queen of the United Kingdom, Elizabeth II." Can you provide any reference stating that the form "[name] [ordinal] of [country]" is a standard form? Srnec 18:16, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
- I really have no idea what you mean. Can you explain how it is historians who get to determine the "full formal name" of a person? What do you mean that monarchs "don't get such things historically"? What things? A historian will usually describe a monarch as "Who the what of Where," but that's not the same thing as that being someone's name. And they won't always do that, depending on the context. Sometimes, as Srnec notes, they may say the same thing using different phraseology. Other times, they won't name the country at all. For instance, if one is talking about French politics in the 18th century, you might say something like. "Following the Treaty of Utrecht, France's position in Europe began to weaken. The king for most of the 18th century, Louis XV, was intelligent, but feckless and lazy." I would add myself to Srnec in asking if you can provide any references to support your contention about what the "standard form" is. I hate to pull rank (well, actually, I kind of like it), but I'm a PhD candidate in history and I'm not familiar with any such thing. You are a first year undergraduate at university. Why should I (or anyone) accept your statements which, so far as I can tell, are based entirely on your own say so? john k 23:31, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
- No, Name Ordinal of Country is the full formal name as traditionally used by historians - which, of course, is not the 'real' formal name of the monarch, because monarchs don't get such things historically. Nonetheless, any historian will formally describe a monarch, when introducing him or her, as 'Who the what of where', because that is the formal manner of referring to deceased monarchs in historical works. Michael Sanders 16:31, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
- Marion Meade uses 'who the what of where' to introduce monarchs. Aline Taylor uses it to introduce monarchs. JR Hale uses it. Leonie Frieda uses it. Ian Mortimer uses it. Hollister and Bennet use it variantly with 'King who the what of where' and 'who the what, King of where'. And that's just the books I can grab immediately in 2 minutes. Would you like me, as a lowly undergraduate, to go to my uni library next week and list for you every book that uses the formulation?
- Monarchs don't get assigned 'immutable' names, quite simply. 'Jean-Jacques Rousseau' is always 'Jean-Jacques Rousseau', never 'John-James Rousseau'. 'Giacomo Casanova' is never 'John Newhouse'. Surnamed commoners generally get to keep their name in their own form (an exception being Caterina and Maria de' Medici, who get to be Catherine and Marie de Medici because they were Queens). Monarchs, nobles, or anyone else 'of' somewhere (e.g. Joan of Arc) don't get that. They are almost always referred to in the style appropriate to the language of the writer, unless the writer deliberately uses the native form. Thus, 'Joanna the Mad' rather than 'Juana la Loca'. 'Philip the Handsome' rather than 'Philipp der Schone'. 'Philip IV of France' rather than 'Philippe IV de France', 'Philip the Fair' rather than 'Philippe le Bel'. The only time a monarch will be introduced without the disambiguating 'of where' is when either the context is already sufficiently established (e.g."...He therefore established the Pragmatic succession to allow his daughter, Maria Theresa, to succeed in Austria, Hungary and Bohemia. On his death, however, her right was challenged, leading to the War of the Austrian Succession...") or when disambiguation is unnecessary (e.g. the Louis's of France - there has never been another Louis XV, so the reader will automatically identify 'Louis XV' as 'Louis XV of France'). However, the addition 'of [Country]' is always accepted as being part of the name - it is in that form that it is always used by historians, that form that always features in popular use.
- Your position, quite frankly, is ludicrous. 'Name ordinal of country' is 'always' used as the standard manner of disambiguating or introducing monarchs. Your attempts to prove that it is not, merely to allow you to ignore the Manual of Style, are so bemusing that, honestly, your attempts to 'pull rank' look even more petty. But please. Enlighten me as to why you believe the relevant degree of formality, as consistent with the rules and guidelines governing wikipedia, is not appropriate in an encyclopaedia. Michael Sanders 10:05, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
- The point is not that "John II of France" is not a commonly used form. Of course it is. The point is that the choice of whether to use that or "John II, King of France" or "The King of France, John II" or simply "John II" is a stylistic one, and has nothing to do with a formal name. Furthermore, you are not merely arguing that it is commonly used, you are arguing that it is always used (you say it right above). This is simply complete nonsense. It is not always used. It is frequently used, but as a means of disambiguation. Other means of disambiguation by country are also used with some frequency. Sometimes there is no need for disambiguation by country, and no means of disambiguation by country is used. The point is that you're asserting that a common means of disambiguation is actually the "full formal name" of a person, for which you have no evidence, and which you can't support. Beyond that, the term "full formal name" is one that you've introduced, and that appears nowhere in the manual of style. Here, again, is the entirety of what the manual of style says about what the bolded name should be:
- The subject of the article should be mentioned at the first natural place that it occurs in the prose, preferably in the first sentence, and should appear in bold face. The name of the subject is usually identical to the page title, although it may appear in a slightly different form from that used as the title, and it may include variations.
- Nothing about "full, formal names." All it says is that the bolded name is usually the same as the title of the article. It also says that a "slightly different form" can be used if we want to. This is an entirely vague guideline. It simply does not say at all that we have to do things your way. It basically leaves the issue of what the bolded name should be in any given article up to the discretion of the editors working on that article. Until you admit that there is absolutely nothing mandating your preferred way of doing things, I don't see why I should bother trying to explain, again, why I prefer to do things another way. john k 15:39, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
- The point is not that "John II of France" is not a commonly used form. Of course it is. The point is that the choice of whether to use that or "John II, King of France" or "The King of France, John II" or simply "John II" is a stylistic one, and has nothing to do with a formal name. Furthermore, you are not merely arguing that it is commonly used, you are arguing that it is always used (you say it right above). This is simply complete nonsense. It is not always used. It is frequently used, but as a means of disambiguation. Other means of disambiguation by country are also used with some frequency. Sometimes there is no need for disambiguation by country, and no means of disambiguation by country is used. The point is that you're asserting that a common means of disambiguation is actually the "full formal name" of a person, for which you have no evidence, and which you can't support. Beyond that, the term "full formal name" is one that you've introduced, and that appears nowhere in the manual of style. Here, again, is the entirety of what the manual of style says about what the bolded name should be:
- Your position, quite frankly, is ludicrous. 'Name ordinal of country' is 'always' used as the standard manner of disambiguating or introducing monarchs. Your attempts to prove that it is not, merely to allow you to ignore the Manual of Style, are so bemusing that, honestly, your attempts to 'pull rank' look even more petty. But please. Enlighten me as to why you believe the relevant degree of formality, as consistent with the rules and guidelines governing wikipedia, is not appropriate in an encyclopaedia. Michael Sanders 10:05, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
- The sample it gives shows that the full formal name is to be used: 'United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland'. With the other forms used following on. Vague? Hardly. And in historical usage, 'Name Ordinal of Country' is the Common Name. So that is what we use for the article title, and what we use for the bold lead. Michael Sanders 19:46, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
- You keep saying all this, and you keep on failing to provide any evidence to support any of these contentions. Additionally, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland is a formal name in a way that Louis XI of France simply is not. The latter isn't a formal name in any manner whatsoever. john k 20:54, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
- The sample it gives shows that the full formal name is to be used: 'United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland'. With the other forms used following on. Vague? Hardly. And in historical usage, 'Name Ordinal of Country' is the Common Name. So that is what we use for the article title, and what we use for the bold lead. Michael Sanders 19:46, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
Take a Deep Breath
People, it seems to me you are all spending way too much time arguing about something that is pure form and no content. Rather than fighting this out, Stalingrad-style, on a House-by-House or even article-by-article basis, why don't you take it to some larger group like the Biography project nobility-and-royalty work group? Otherwise, whatever gets decided by force of arms for French monarchs could be totally inconsistent with what is done for HRE, English, Russian, Turkish or what have you. I can see some merit on both sides, but this strikes me as a pretty pathetic subject for an edit war.Eldredo 13:41, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
- But I hope you can see that the forms which Michael proposes (and seems willing to push at any cost) are absurd. I think Wikipedia loses credibility if its form is bad. But where can enough consensus be had to force a style change? Or rather, to enforce the long-accepted style? Srnec 13:55, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
- That would be the long-accepted style as laid down by the Manual of Style, would it? Wikipedia will not lose credibility if, in writing articles, it enforces a bit of extra formality that you view as redundant. It will lose credibility if its editors are shown to disregard the rules and regulations, supposedly laid down by consensus to be enforced in all articles, as their fancy takes them. Michael Sanders 14:03, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
- Oh, for God's sake. There are absolutely no rules that require the format you prefer. Nothing at all in the manual of style suggests anything of the sort. The better maintained articles on monarchs have always bolded simply Name Ordinal (look at the articles on British monarchs, particularly, as these are generally much more frequently edited than articles on other European monarchs). The only example of a royal in Wikipedia:Manual of style (biographies) uses this format, as well. (That is to say "Cleopatra VII Philopator", not "Cleopatra VII of Egypt"). Michael is on a bizarre crusade here that has absolutely no basis in the written rules of wikipedia. john k 15:53, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
- I'd have to agree with this. Michael is absolutely right to emphasize the importance of following conventions - they are there for guidance where there is any room for disagreement. But I don't really see the problem here - the biography conventions are quite general and were created primarily to help those who had difficulty understanding how to set out the introduction to an article. There are many valid exceptions. Now, can we all get back to discussing the naming of queen consorts, please? Deb 16:58, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
- No, I am asking you to be in accordance with the rules and conventions of wikipedia, and not break them simply because other editors are on some 'bizarre crusade' to remove what s/he views as 'redundancy' - after all, nobody else seemed to have a major problem with that layout before that. But all I can say is this: if you don't want 'Name ordinal of country', you go to the Manual of Style, or some other general forum of discussion, and discuss it there, and get the Manual changed, so at least it won't be a handful of editors deciding that an entire slew of articles can break the rules. Michael Sanders 19:44, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
- There is no rule breaking involved, as John Kenney has pointed out so many times... Srnec 20:12, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
- No, I am asking you to be in accordance with the rules and conventions of wikipedia, and not break them simply because other editors are on some 'bizarre crusade' to remove what s/he views as 'redundancy' - after all, nobody else seemed to have a major problem with that layout before that. But all I can say is this: if you don't want 'Name ordinal of country', you go to the Manual of Style, or some other general forum of discussion, and discuss it there, and get the Manual changed, so at least it won't be a handful of editors deciding that an entire slew of articles can break the rules. Michael Sanders 19:44, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
- This is because there aren't any rules in wikipedia. There are only conventions and guidelines. But by all means let's change the Manual of Style to take into account the exceptions. Deb 20:37, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
- By all means let's clarify the issue on the Manual of Style, but the fact remains that the current conventions and guidelines simply don't address this issue one way or the other. john k 20:52, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
- I think you can afford to be more generous in your comments, though. Without wishing to sound patronizing, Michael is a great contributor to the history pages and his concerns ought not to be dismissed lightly. Deb 21:08, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
- I cannot tell exactly what his concern is. He supports the leads as they stand at Louis X of France and Robert II of France: but why must we see "Louis" mentioned siz times in bold in the lead? and why do we need to embolden "France" in the Robert lead? I can't follow his reasoning, since other encyclopaedias support my proposed format. Srnec 03:03, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
Resolution
If four users — Carl Logan, john k, Deb, and myself — oppose one — Michael Sanders — in a matter of style, is that not enough of a consensus to enforce a change in style? Srnec 03:20, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
- No. The Manual of Style is based - supposedly - on wiki-wide consensus. You need more than a cabal to change that. Michael Sanders 11:19, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
- Neither Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Article_titles nor Wikipedia:Lead_section#Bold_title says that the page name should always appear in the lead. Indeed, the MOS does not mention the page name. It says: "[i]f possible, make the article’s topic the subject of the first sentence of the article". Not the page name, the topic. Disambiguating parts of the page name such as "(writer)", "(died 888)" are not part of the topic. Neither is "of France", since the relevant naming convention describes this as a preventive disambiguation. Angus McLellan (Talk) 11:33, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
- WP:LEAD
- "==Bold title==
- The subject of the article should be mentioned at the first natural place that it occurs in the prose, preferably in the first sentence, and should appear in bold face. The name of the subject is usually identical to the page title, although it may appear in a slightly different form from that used as the title, and it may include variations. For example, in the article "United Kingdom":
The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland (usually shortened to the United Kingdom or UK) occupies part of the British Isles in northwestern Europe ..."
- The MoS says "The name of the subject . . . may appear in a slightly different form from that used as the title." What part of that don't you understand? Srnec 21:36, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
- What part of the example - showing what it means by 'slightly different form' - don't you understand? Michael Sanders 00:54, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
- I don't think you understand the MoS: it is not a rule and it is not upheld by consensus. The example is just that, an example. It does not tell us the only cases where exceptions are allowed. As pointed out above, "of France" is a disambiguator and ought to be absent from the first line, where it is unecessary. Why do you insistent on boldening "France" in the leads? What purpose does that accomplish? Srnec 01:05, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
- What part of the example - showing what it means by 'slightly different form' - don't you understand? Michael Sanders 00:54, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
The Manual of Style is a guide to writing articles, which is expected to be upheld in all articles, and which is decided upon by consensus, which cannot be ignored or overturned without discussion at the relevant manual page. Are you saying that that is not the case? The example stands as a clear example of how the bold leads should be laid out - with the full name (which may differ slightly from the article title), variations bracketed, etc. If it does not tell of any exceptions, why assume there are any? And as for 'of France', it is as much a part of a monarch's name as his or her ordinal - if excluding one, why not exclude the other? Michael Sanders 01:12, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
- Robert Dudley, 1st Earl of Leicester: Robert Dudley, 1st Earl of Leicester; Robert Devereux, 2nd Earl of Essex: Robert Devereux, 2nd Earl of Essex; Robert Gascoyne-Cecil, 3rd Marquess of Salisbury: Robert Arthur Talbot Gascoyne-Cecil, 3rd Marquess of Salisbury; William Pitt, 1st Earl of Chatham: William Pitt, 1st Earl of Chatham; Charles Brandon, 1st Duke of Suffolk: Charles Brandon, 1st Duke of Suffolk. Aren't the numberings there 'disambiguators'? Michael Sanders 01:15, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
- No, the ordinal is, in fact, more a part of the name than "of France". And British peers are always referred to by their numbering. The point is that ordinals, or the numerings of British peers, are a standardized way of referring to these people. "Of France" is not standardized. It is one of many different possible ways of expressing information about what country the person ruled. It's also worth noting that "of X" is inherently ambiguous when there's no ordinal. "Catherine of Aragon," for instance, could refer either to a reigning queen of Aragon named Catherine or, as it does, to an infanta of Aragon. If anything, adding "of X" as though it is part of the formal name when there's no ordinal implies that the person is like Catherine of Aragon - i.e., not a reigning monarch. john k 17:29, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
I hesitate to jump in here, but . . . First, I have to agree with Srnec et al. that, whatever the binding or non-binding nature of the manual of style may be, it is ambiguous on the issue presented. That said, I think it would be much better if Michael, Srnec, and others could agree on a resolution rather than fight it out. I'm concerned that everyone is dug in to their positions mainly by virtue of having strongly defended them for several weeks.
As I understand it, it is settled that the title of an article, absent other sufficient disambiguators, should usually read "A [numeral] of B". The issue is whether that formula needs to be duplicated in the bold first mention, or whether it's OK to just say "A [numeral]" and indicate that he's "King of B" in non-bold print in the course of the first paragraph. I'm oversimplifying here, but this seems to be the gist of it. I gather that the main argument for allowing variation is that "A [numeral] of B" can be clunky as part of a lead paragraph, because it results in truisms like "A [numeral] of B was the King of B."
I like the idea of avoiding clunkiness. I can also see that making the bold first mention more, rather than less, ambiguous than the article title may not advance the purpose of having a bold first mention (although I'm not sure exactly what that purpose is supposed to be). Would it make sense to say that you can avoid clunkiness by splitting up the bold first mention, as long as you bold enough words to ensure that the bold first mention is no more ambiguous than the article title? E.g., you could say "A [numeral] was King of B" or "A [numeral] was King of B" but not "A [numeral] was King of B. Eldredo 13:12, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
- That's what I did about a week ago in all articles where the monarch did not hold another major title or title which a reader might conceivanly search for the monarch under. Michael Sanders 13:35, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
Michael appears to be alone in believing that the MoS mandates anything on this subject. Can we move on to discussing on the merits what the better first line is, rather than arguing about the MoS, which simply doesn't say anything about this subject? john k 17:31, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
Just to clarify my own position, I agree that the MoS doesn't mandate the answer to what you guys are arguing about.Eldredo 18:39, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
Aesthetics and merits
At User:John Kenney's suggestion, we move on to discussin the merits of the proposed leads. I present, as a first example, the lead for Robert II of France, first as it stands (Michael's proposal) and second as I propose it:
- Robert II (27 March 972 – 20 July 1031), called the Pious or the Wise, was King of France from 987 to 1031, ruling with his father, Hugh Capet, from until 996, then alone until 1017, and finally with his sons Hugh Magnus and Henry I thereafter until his death. Second reigning member of the House of Capet, he was born in Orléans to Hugh and Adelaide of Aquitaine.
- Robert II (27 March 972 – 20 July 1031), called the Pious or the Wise, was King of France from 987 to 1031, ruling with his father, Hugh Capet, until 996, then alone until 1017, and finally with his sons Hugh Magnus and Henry I thereafter until his death. Second reigning member of the House of Capet, he was born in Orléans to Hugh and Adelaide of Aquitaine.
This proposal covers all the Capetian and Valois monarchs from Robert II to Charles VIII, save those who also ruled Navarre and any others with variants bold forms which Michael wishes to keep in the lead.
Here is the lead for Louis X of France as it stands (Michael's proposal) first and then as I propose it:
- Louis X of France, also Louis I of Navarre (4 October 1289 – 5 June 1316), called in French Louis le Hutin, and in Spanish Luis el Obstinado (translated in English as Louis the Quarreller, Louis the Headstrong, or Louis the Stubborn, ruled Navarre and Champagne from 1305 to death, and France from 1314 to death, one of the last of the House of Capet.
- Louis X (4 October 1289 – 5 June 1316), called the Quarreller, the Headstrong, or the Stubborn (French: le Hutin; Spanish: el Obstinado), was the King of Navarre (as Louis I) from 1305 and King of France from 1314 to his death, one of the last of the House of Capet.
This proposal covers those who were kings of both France and Navarre.
I would also like to revisit the issue of images and infoboxes, but one thing at a time. Srnec 14:39, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
I agree with your proposals, save that after 1620 there is no need to list a separate ordinal for Navarre, as Navarre had ceased to exist as a separate kingdom. I also don't think that Robert II's time as junior co-regent with his father, or his time having junior co-regents, needs to be mentioned in the intro. For the purposes of the intro, saying he was King from 996 to 1031 should be sufficient. john k 15:13, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
- Titles, or forms of titles, which are (or were) important as regards the monarch, or which the reader would or might expect to find the monarch under, should be listed as I proposed, in full. In those cases where the other title isn't as relevant (e.g.Louis IX of France as 'Count of Artois' should be listed as Srnec suggests, provided the format currently used in Robert II of France is followed to bold 'France', or 'of France' (denoting the relevance of the country as it relates to the name, whilst avoiding 'redundancy'). Michael Sanders 16:31, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
- I agree with John K that the periods of coregency are probably too much for the intro.
- Michael, do you really think anybody would expect to find Louis X under "Louis I of Navarre"? That's why it is not important enough to merit the treatment you give it. And is the relevance of the title King of France to the ordinal not obvious enough that it is almost insulting to one's intelligence to have it pointed out? I think the forms I propose make it abundantly clear, as does the very title of the article itself, to what the ordinal refers. The extra bolding just decreases readability. Srnec 21:31, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
I could express a preference if I understood better what the purpose of bolding is. Can somebody direct me to a policy statement or something that explains the purpose of bolding?Eldred 22:14, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
- To make clear what the subject of the article is. It seems pretty standard for reference works like encyclopaedias and dictionaries of all sorts. I am not, however, aware of a Wikipedia statement on its purpose. Srnec 03:51, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
To chime in on this:
- We should not mention coregencies in the intro.
- We should not use invented numerals.
- Actually used but uncommon numerals should be added after the second titles "King of Navarre (as Louis Number)".
- We should give birth names (if different from the commonly used names) in the "life" section, not in the intro.
- "Louis XIV of France ... was King of France" sounds strange, therefore we should avoid the first France (despite it being part of the title)
- We may bolden the countries but then we should bolden the entire term "King of France", "King of Navarre". In any case, a wikilink should be beneath the entire term, i. e. not King of France.
Str1977 (smile back) 18:38, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
- I think I agree with most everything Str says. Personally, I would prefer not bolding the title "King of France," or whatever. I agree that if we must, the whole term should still be linked. john k 21:59, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
- I like the idea of bolding the whole term, or not at all. Slight preference for bolding over not-bolding, because bolding the whole term tells you at a glance, unambiguously, who the person is, without looking strange.Eldred 22:12, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
- I think the bolding is unecessary because the title of the article satisfies the "quick glance" much better. Bolding and linking the title just reduces readability of an intro already sure to be full of important bolding and linkage. Srnec 03:49, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
- I like the idea of bolding the whole term, or not at all. Slight preference for bolding over not-bolding, because bolding the whole term tells you at a glance, unambiguously, who the person is, without looking strange.Eldred 22:12, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
So besides Michael, we are all substantially in agreement, then, with the exception of the issue of whether we should bold "King of France"? john k 07:06, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
- It seems that way, yes. Overall, I'm with Srnec. Angus McLellan (Talk) 08:33, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
Just corrected a couple typos, I'm for Srnec's version. Eldred 12:43, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
I'm also in favor of Str's bullets, except for the mentioning of co-regencies, where I have a question. If we don't mention co-regencies, do we give the dates of reign from the date the person became co-regent or the date the person became the monarch? I've never given much thought to co-regencies - does the answer depend on how much actual power the co-regent had?Eldred 12:51, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
Oops, I see that the dates issue was addressed in the discussion above the bullets. I guess my question is, are we going with 996 for Robert because his co-regency was just a formality? Are there cases where the co-regent actually exercised authority and if so would that change the answer? Eldred 12:58, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
- We should use the standard dates - which are from the death of Hugh Capet until his own death, so 996-1031. As far as co-regencies, I'm not aware of any cases where they exercised any real authority, but I'm not expert on medieval French history. Even if they did, though, I don't think that would change the situation. We don't mention Charles V's regency after 1356 in the intro to his article. john k 14:08, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
- I agree. We could take co-regencies into account either by giving the standard "ruling" dates through saying "X ruled as King of France (standard dates)", or "was King of France (nominal dates) and ruled France (standard dates)", or gor simply using the nominal dates, maybe with a short nod "at first under his father" (supposing it is the father) and with the article fleshing out subordinate reign and reign on his own. Str1977 (smile back) 20:50, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
why do you use awkward english rendered names?
instead of the actual names... a french king named "john" sounds corny. why "Charles" is not called "Charlie", or "Robert" "Robby" (could be funny) and why does "Napoléon" keep his é accent... there is no logic in your proceeding. Paris By Night 00:40, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
- damn "François" is called "Francis" (he is the lucky one, could have been "Francky"!) and with no reason, "Louis-Philippe" kept his name instead of being called something ugly like "Lou-Philip" or some... there is an heavy work waiting for this article. Paris By Night 00:48, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
- pff! "Odo"?? is this an article about the German kings of the French ones? Odo is the German render of "Eudes 1". Eudes was born in France an ruled in France there is absolutely no reason for him to have a German name. Paris By Night 01:06, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
- I stil dislike your unlegitimate translations of Capetian (Capétien) and Carolingian (Carolingien) but it's better now with the actual king names subtitled. Paris By Night 03:39, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
- Except that they aren't the actual king names. They didn't speak modern French then. You're seriously confusion Frankish and France, not to mention that you totally ignore the use of Latin at the time. Especially when it comes to calling the Carolingians a "true french dynasty", the article is stuck in 19th century nationalist delusions. What's next? You try to annex Aix-la-Chapelle (oops, it's called Aachen nowadays) --213.209.110.45 (talk) 08:27, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
- I stil dislike your unlegitimate translations of Capetian (Capétien) and Carolingian (Carolingien) but it's better now with the actual king names subtitled. Paris By Night 03:39, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
- pff! "Odo"?? is this an article about the German kings of the French ones? Odo is the German render of "Eudes 1". Eudes was born in France an ruled in France there is absolutely no reason for him to have a German name. Paris By Night 01:06, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
"Another date favored by many medieval historians is 987"
which historians?? french historians have chosen the treaty of verdun 843. just have a look at the France article and the French version of this current article. everyone regard the Merovingien dynasty as the first monarch of france. that was taught in early schools when i was a kid. so who are these famous historians you are talking about? there aren't french are they? Paris By Night 05:35, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
portraits
added some, now there 3 are missing ones. the one for Louis V is just waiting to be transfered in wikicomons. see Talk:Louis V of France. Paris By Night 16:54, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
Huge mistake
There is a huge mistake in the bottom infobox "Chronology of French monarchs from 987 to 1870", also present in many other pages. The House of Capet (Capétiens directs) stops with Charles IV and the following king, Philippe VI, is the first one of the House of Valois. In this infobox, all the kings belonging to the fisrt branch of the House of Valois (Valois directs, from Philippe VI to Charles VIII) are listed in the House of Capet, and only the second and third branches (Valois Orléans and Valois Angoulême, from Louis XII to Henri III) are listed as Valois. It's really a big mistake. All kings from Philippe VI to Henri III belong to the so called in english House of Valois (in France we usually make the difference between Directs and Angoulême).
Please someone correct as quickly as possible this mistake. Stymphal 15:51, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
Louis XIX & Henry V??
When did historians start recognizing theses guys as Kings of France? I always though Charles X's immediate successor was Louis Phillipe I. GoodDay (talk) 01:46, 16 December 2007 (UTC)
If we're adding pretenders to the list, we may aswell add everyone (right up to the present). GoodDay (talk) 02:20, 16 December 2007 (UTC)
- They aren't pretenders, precisely. "Louis XIX" and "Henry V" theoretically reigned from August 2 to August 9, 1830, under the terms of the 1814 Charter, I think. Note that hardcore legitimists consider Charles X to have been king until his death. At any rate, I do think it is problematic to list them, especially since the current list implies that while "Louis XIX's" kingship is questionable, that of "Henry V" is not, even though it is at least as questionable. john k (talk) 17:35, 16 December 2007 (UTC)
The 'Louis XIX' pro-King argument (I believe) is based on automatic succession. However, historians (and encylopedias) don't list him as 'King of France'. If he were King, his article would've been moved to Louis XIX of France. GoodDay (talk) 17:47, 16 December 2007 (UTC)
Also historians & encyclopedias don't list Henry as King either. If he were King, his article would've been moved to Henry V of France. GoodDay (talk) 17:49, 16 December 2007 (UTC)
- No different from Queen Jane? It's a list rather than a category, so an appropriate explanation and/or disclaimer can be added to each entry. It's not a very complete list, especially for something which is supposed to be of featured quality. Carloman II of France, Hugh Magnus of France and Philip of France (1116-1131) ought to be mentioned if we can find space for Louis XIX and Henry V. Angus McLellan (Talk) 18:21, 16 December 2007 (UTC)
- Carloman II is there. What about Henry VI of England? He was actually recognized as King of France in Paris for several years, crowned as King, accepted by many of the great nobles (the Duke of Burgundy, most prominently), etc. I think one can more plausible argue that he was king of France than that Chambord was. john k (talk) 18:33, 16 December 2007 (UTC)
Indeed, why not Henry the Young King. This article truly needs a criteria for entries. GoodDay (talk) 18:39, 16 December 2007 (UTC)
- The country of which Henry the Young King was quasi-king was England, not France. john k (talk) 18:41, 16 December 2007 (UTC)
Already ahead of you (as I've scratched it out), again this article needs an 'entry' criteria. Theoretically under it's current openess, we could add Edward III of England to George III of the United Kingdom as the English & British monarchs (from 1328 to 1801) claimed to be King of France. GoodDay (talk) 18:51, 16 December 2007 (UTC)
- All the monarchs from Edward III to Mary I, at least, were recognized as "King of France" within territory which was considered part of France. One could even say the same for the later monarchs, if the Channel Islands are considered to be part of the Kingdom of France, which is at least arguable. john k (talk) 21:31, 16 December 2007 (UTC)
We could, I suppose, include contested reigns, in the same way as list of antipopes are entered in lists of popes. Their names are usually in italics. My opinion is that a claim to succession does not make a king or queen. A monarch is legitimised by the people over whom he or she reigns. The 'automatic succession' idea is based on that divine right stuff. So we could only list as true monarchs those who were acknowledged as such by the French people. If we are going to list these persons who never ruled France we would have to expand it. We would also have to include the various Orleanist, Bonapartist and Bourbon claimants. Likewise, as has already been noted, we would have to include the English claim, which gets very messy if we consider the Jacobite succession. So you see, it gets messy. What we could, and should do, is include, in the form of noted entries, persons who do have a bearing on their predecessors or successors. Louis XVIII, for example, makes no sense without making a note of the so-called Louis XVII. Napoleon III is confusing without a note about the so-called Napoleon II. 'Henry V' might also be noted, only because he is connected to the end of the monarchy. But lets not get anal. Let's confine ourselves to names with accepted significance.--Gazzster (talk) 23:05, 16 December 2007 (UTC)
- I'm not suggesting that the Capetian "co-kings" should be listed as kings, only that they should be mentioned on the list. Whoever it is that does succession boxes has added them to the relevant articles. But given the format of the list now, that's not very simple to do. Angus McLellan (Talk) 23:42, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
This article needs clensing, we must remove the paper-monarchs (those who never reigned). GoodDay (talk) 00:56, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
If you run a google search on Henri V and Louis XIX, this site is most prominent. Which begs the question, are editors (or an editor) attempting to establish them as true kings of France without considering the opinion of French society in general? Certainly, they have a right to do so, but the claim should be advanced through scholarly media such as journals. To present them as true kings on this site is original research.--Gazzster (talk) 12:28, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
- I still think Louis XIX, Henry V, Napoleon II should be removed from this list. Louis XVII should get the boot too, which of course would upset the regnal numbers, as his uncle chose the name Louis XVIII (thought he should've been named 'Louis XVII'). At least lable them as 'pretenders'. GoodDay (talk) 00:20, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
- I've removed Louis XVII and Louis XIX from the main list, since, whatever the legalities of the situation, they weren't de facto monarchs (of course, like Charles II, the issue should be treated less crudely in their actual articles). However, the sitaution doesn't seem to be a clear-cut "de jure but not de facto" in the case of Napoleon II and Henry V - both got in a few days of nominal rule (as minors, admittedly, but that's a different issue), at least - what was going on in those days? Michael Sanders 00:45, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
I'm still concerned about keeping 'Napoleon II and Henry V'. GoodDay (talk) 00:52, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
Portrait of John I
Obviously an artist's conception of how the King may have looked in adulthood. King John I died an infant (less then a week old). GoodDay (talk) 17:58, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
- This appears to have been corrected. (BartBassist (talk) 17:16, 17 October 2008 (UTC))
Monarch before John I
I'm just guessing (I've never seen it written as such), but surely there must have been a monarch during the six months or so between the death of Louis X and the birth of John I. Presumably the monarch was Philip V. (BartBassist (talk) 17:16, 17 October 2008 (UTC))
French Presidents?
Now that I've woken up a little, why are the Presidents in this article? They're not monarchs? GoodDay (talk) 14:47, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
- They're not again. There was already a brief epilogue of post 1871 'Heads of State', which included a link to the list of French presidents, a separate section in addition to that wasn't needed. Michael Sanders 16:51, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
Henry VI
Henry VI should be mentioned as a king of france in this article since he was de jure succeser of charles VI therefore he is a king of france.Any objections?If there are non then ill impose these changes in about a week.--HENRY V OF ENGLAND.
- In truth, from 1422 to 1429, France kinda had two Kings. However, I think perhaps we should keep Henry VI out of the list. GoodDay (talk) 15:05, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
- I am now going to edit Henry VI of england as french monarch.--HENRY V OF ENGLAND (talk) 17:24, 21 March 2009 (UTC)
- "Wikipedia is not Truth parachuted down to Earth from Heaven"; nonetheless, here is what I retrieved on the king of France Charles VII, from fr:wiki list of French monarchs: http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liste_des_monarques_de_France.
- Please note that Charles VII is n° 53 in that list & that the king of England Henry V is not in list, only mentioned in refusal of Charles VII to recognise validity of treaty of Troyes.
- 53 Charles VII Charles VII le Victorieux ou le Bien Servi
- (22 février 1403 – 22 juillet 1461) 1422 – 1461 Valois Devient roi de France à la mort de son père Charles VI, le 21 octobre 1422, refusant d'entériner le traité de Troyes qui le déshéritait au profit d'Henri V d'Angleterre. Est sacré à Reims le 17 juillet 1429 grâce à l'aide de Jeanne d'Arc. Meurt le 22 juillet 1461.
- Frania W. (talk) 18:20, 21 March 2009 (UTC)
- I recommend that Henry VI's entry be reverted to it's previous style (that being a simple note). GoodDay (talk) 16:05, 22 March 2009 (UTC)
- http://books.google.com/books?id=f5YsAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA91&dq=henry+vi+was+king+of+france&as_brr=1
http://books.google.ie/books?id=7ZABAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA104&dq=henry+vi+was+king+of+france&as_brr=3 http://books.google.ie/books?id=yX0DAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA216&dq=henry+vi+was+king+of+france&as_brr=3#PPA220,M1
I strongly advise this one to read: http://books.google.ie/books?id=kFSqKelemSMC&pg=PA23&dq=henry+vi+was+king+of+france+1422&as_brr=3#PPA26,M1
SO Henry VI must be mentioned as a king of france and was in fact was the second youngest king of france since John I was king of france when he was born.--HENRY V OF ENGLAND (talk) 19:59, 22 March 2009 (UTC)
- As I see it, you didn't get a consensus for your changes, therefore they should be reverted. GoodDay (talk) 15:37, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
- I have just reverted them.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 15:39, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
- Much better, the note version for Henry is less confrontational. GoodDay (talk) 15:46, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
- I mentioned all I had to mention and gave you the oppinions of historions so why cant I edit Henry VI as a french king.--HENRY V OF ENGLAND (talk) 17:05, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
- What would have been his title? Henri II? Thereby creating confusion among the readers as they in company with scholars, historians, and genealogists only know of one Henri II of France who reigned from 1547 until 1559.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 19:20, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
- I have just reverted them.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 15:39, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
This is my response to a note left by Henry on my talk page:
Dear Henry, As all of us stand on our own ground not moving an inch, the discussion is taking us nowhere. You are aware that a similar argument was the cause of the One Hundred Years War. And whether she was right or wrong, certainly wrong in your eyes, I am siding with Jeanne d'Arc; not that I believe in her "voices", but because, whoever she was, she knew in her own heart that Charles VII was the real king of France. Legally speaking, while his father Charles VI was alive, the future Charles VII was the dauphin, and the Treaty of Troyes was not a legal piece of paper. As powerful as he is, a king does not have the right to change a fundamental law to his liking, more importantly when the change will give the dynastic line another direction & disinherit the rightful heir to the throne. And that is exactly what was done by the Treaty of Troyes. The son of Charles VI was deprived of his right to the throne of France in favour of his future brother-in-law; the irony being that one of the conditions was that Henry V of England marry Catherine, the daughter of Charles VI & Isabeau de Bavière, which means that when the treaty was signed, the marriage had not yet taken place. How could such a magouille be considered legal? What would have happened if Catherine had dropped dead before her marriage to Henry V ? Nearly three centuries later, the all-powerful Louis XIV could not tamper with dynastic heredity either when he elevated his legitimised sons to the rank of Princes du Sang, thus placing them in the line of succession; his will was broken by the Parlement de Paris within a week after his death. A king of France wears the crown, he does not own it, thus he cannot dispose of it at will.
In conclusion, it seems to me that the note, with the word *disputed* inserted by GoodDay, was the best solution to our (dis)agreement. Aurevoir! FW
Frania W. (talk) 02:48, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
- Hello Frania I am so happy you posted this comment.As you said If Charles became dauphine he was thus legaly bound to the throne but that is wrong because this is not in french law a tenure of qualification for kingship any more then holding the principilty of wales or earldom of the dutchy of cronwell so he is not legaly bound to the thronee upon inheriting the title dauphine.As said times before salic law had nothing to do with succestion of thrones but for private plots of land even though it is a standard of succestion in both england and france during the 15th century.This boycotting of Edward III legal claim became known as repolitik but the treaty fudged the past and never admmited the french were with wrongful kings.It was more of de justice since Charles VII was emmensely involved in the scandel of John the fearles death in 1419.You are wrong frania by stating the the treatys clauses declared henry should marry catherine and with her his heirs will inherit the thronee but actualy stated henry and his heirs should inherit france so its legal.If Catherine had died before henry had sons then it would be his brothers who became king as ppart of the clause so please read carefully frania.As also said before the treaty in practice removed Charles from succestion as part of de justice for the murder of john the fearless so upon Henrys death Henry VI of England and of France became the legal soveriegn by virtue of treaty in other words upon charles death no matter what happens all the rights,privilages,and virtue of the throne succeded to Henry VI and I am in complete support of historions in this and as in next in line he became soveriegn.The only thing the treaty was proved Illigial for was for opposing the traditional rights of succestion but yet again there is no written down document in french law before 1317 which stated "Men must succeded" the main cause for it not written was because the capetians were hugely invested with males and brothers to succeded nobody not even Edward III thought the capetian dynasty would become extinct and the same thing happend with basis of archery law in england since england loved archery and were the best archers nobody thought of a point to write key therois on how to draw the bow thus as it declined nowadays there is hardly any written therois of the days of the draw in england since it was so common no one yielded to the idea.So in complete support of historions Henry succeded to a double-monarchy as de jure or legal king.Charles could say he is the rightful king but dosent make him legal or de jure king.The treaty fudged the past.Goodbye frania and thanks for that question since it was the most difficult question I found so far on this debate but I agree this is going around in circles and me GoodDay Jeanne and you are all basicly stating the same thing over and over again.--HENRY V OF ENGLAND (talk) 17:36, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
- Henry, as you so rightfully wrote: ***this is going around in circles and me GoodDay Jeanne and you are all basicly stating the same thing over and over again.*** And my opinion is that only Jeanne d'Arc and a team of lawyers versed in international law could settle the matter again. Aurevoir! Frania W. (talk) 18:24, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
- I agree Charles VI was a legitimate King of France. However, if we include him in the list, we must credit the English claim right down to George III, the last King of the English to claim the title.--Gazzster (talk) 00:35, 27 March 2009 (UTC)
- Henry, as you so rightfully wrote: ***this is going around in circles and me GoodDay Jeanne and you are all basicly stating the same thing over and over again.*** And my opinion is that only Jeanne d'Arc and a team of lawyers versed in international law could settle the matter again. Aurevoir! Frania W. (talk) 18:24, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
- If we had a team of lawyers, the Treaty of Troyes would be rendered invalid due to it having been signed by a person (Charles VI) who was insane at the time; thus depriving Henry VI of his right to acceed to the French throne upon the death of Henry V-who also had no legal right to rule France per the invaldity of the aforesaid treaty--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 05:42, 27 March 2009 (UTC)
- Hello Jeanne thats why charles VI had a regent as the legal head or ruler in stead of Charles.Charles actualy knew his heir and regent was Henry V because remember when they both went to paris with the duke of burgundy and charles passed the holy relic to henry adressing him as HEIR,henry refused and insisted on charles kissing the holy relic first before himeself.Charles was half-insane not completely insane and anyway as said Iseabue was the legal head.Charles is the one who confirmed the treaty.Henry thus had legal right to the throne.Lawyers wont just look at the treaty they would also look at the background(the point in 1317) and would investigate salic law and if Edward III had legal right(which he did).You are all claiming the treaty Illigial for the wrong reason and the law back then was completely different from the law now so therefore theres no point trying to compare the sitution according to todays laws since historions would investigate that.--HENRY V OF ENGLAND (talk) 15:36, 29 March 2009 (UTC)
- The claims of Edward III are a different matter. I for my part would dispute that Edward III had any valid claim to the throne over Philip VI - the man he had first accepted as King of France sworn fealty to as his liege-lord in his role as Duke of Aquitaine. Then he went back on his word. Str1977 (talk) 15:51, 5 April 2009 (UTC)
- Hello Frania I am so happy you posted this comment.As you said If Charles became dauphine he was thus legaly bound to the throne but that is wrong because this is not in french law a tenure of qualification for kingship any more then holding the principilty of wales or earldom of the dutchy of cronwell so he is not legaly bound to the thronee upon inheriting the title dauphine.As said times before salic law had nothing to do with succestion of thrones but for private plots of land even though it is a standard of succestion in both england and france during the 15th century.This boycotting of Edward III legal claim became known as repolitik but the treaty fudged the past and never admmited the french were with wrongful kings.It was more of de justice since Charles VII was emmensely involved in the scandel of John the fearles death in 1419.You are wrong frania by stating the the treatys clauses declared henry should marry catherine and with her his heirs will inherit the thronee but actualy stated henry and his heirs should inherit france so its legal.If Catherine had died before henry had sons then it would be his brothers who became king as ppart of the clause so please read carefully frania.As also said before the treaty in practice removed Charles from succestion as part of de justice for the murder of john the fearless so upon Henrys death Henry VI of England and of France became the legal soveriegn by virtue of treaty in other words upon charles death no matter what happens all the rights,privilages,and virtue of the throne succeded to Henry VI and I am in complete support of historions in this and as in next in line he became soveriegn.The only thing the treaty was proved Illigial for was for opposing the traditional rights of succestion but yet again there is no written down document in french law before 1317 which stated "Men must succeded" the main cause for it not written was because the capetians were hugely invested with males and brothers to succeded nobody not even Edward III thought the capetian dynasty would become extinct and the same thing happend with basis of archery law in england since england loved archery and were the best archers nobody thought of a point to write key therois on how to draw the bow thus as it declined nowadays there is hardly any written therois of the days of the draw in england since it was so common no one yielded to the idea.So in complete support of historions Henry succeded to a double-monarchy as de jure or legal king.Charles could say he is the rightful king but dosent make him legal or de jure king.The treaty fudged the past.Goodbye frania and thanks for that question since it was the most difficult question I found so far on this debate but I agree this is going around in circles and me GoodDay Jeanne and you are all basicly stating the same thing over and over again.--HENRY V OF ENGLAND (talk) 17:36, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
- Jeanne d'Arc made it unnecessary to call in lawyers. Our dear Henry here makes it look/sound as if the English had every right to be in France. Crossing the Channel to eat up someone's else country - even if the someone else is a brother, sister, grandfather, cousin, in-law or whatever - is an act of invasion. Inserting Henry VI of England in the list of French monarchs is like having General der Infanterie Dietrich von Choltitz in the list of legally appointed Gouverneurs militaires de Paris because Herr Hitler put him in that post in August 1944. Auf Wiedersehen! Frania W. (talk) 13:41, 27 March 2009 (UTC)
- If such a list existed, he would certainly belong in there. Str1977 (talk) 15:51, 5 April 2009 (UTC)
- Jeanne d'Arc made it unnecessary to call in lawyers. Our dear Henry here makes it look/sound as if the English had every right to be in France. Crossing the Channel to eat up someone's else country - even if the someone else is a brother, sister, grandfather, cousin, in-law or whatever - is an act of invasion. Inserting Henry VI of England in the list of French monarchs is like having General der Infanterie Dietrich von Choltitz in the list of legally appointed Gouverneurs militaires de Paris because Herr Hitler put him in that post in August 1944. Auf Wiedersehen! Frania W. (talk) 13:41, 27 March 2009 (UTC)
- Hello Frania.Henry didnt call it an invasion in order to destroy the realm of france or just to gain more land because of mutal jeolosy but to retrive his rightful throne which the french arrogently subsided through a made-up claime(Illigial) law used to push aside Edward III.Henry V ivocked them as rebels so it was a just invastion and the english without fact had a just claim.people ignore there right because England was a back-wash rebelious country in the eyes of higher-archy monarchies(even though they had superb archers LOL)The english couldnt possibly hope they could mantain a country of 12m when they only have about 3.5m so they were in least patient enough to wait for the right chance(Burgundian-Armagnac cival-war) in order to fully establish there just claim.You must remember Henry V did every christian thing to avoid bloodshed with his fellow led astray oppenents and first asked for the regions of the angevin empire and its vassals but was rudely insulted but yet kept his cool for a while but the french then started to Ignore him so he said to his men he was preparing for a just cause and launced his invasion thus led to his divine-support at Agincourt.Also if you happend to forget Europe completely lost faith in there useless attempts to retake Jewresalum but this Most christian king who never losses hope(like in agincourt) was willing to go on crussade after bieng King oF France with emperor Sigsumend as part of the treaty of canterbury 1416 whom sigsumend was enrolled as knight of the garter he(Henry) thus expressed he would be willing to take the chances in his future kingdom of france to leave it in Jeopardy in order to go to crussade trusting its inhabitents and english governers not to revolt but however this crussade theroy is all couner-factal since it never did happen but desribes his never losing faith in god and his promises.Goodbye Frania.--HENRY V OF ENGLAND (talk) 16:05, 29 March 2009 (UTC)
- I thought we had settled this thing. I'm very disappointed in the pushing of Henry VI as King France. I'm also disappointed in the apparent lack of interest in the subject, by the Wikipedia: WikiProject Royalty members. GoodDay (talk) 15:25, 1 April 2009 (UTC)
- You requested arbitration on the issue at hand, but alas the request has been totally ignored. I'm surprised that more French editors have not come forward to assist in this discussion.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 15:31, 1 April 2009 (UTC)
- I think I'll try the Wikipedia: WikiProject France members. GoodDay (talk) 15:50, 1 April 2009 (UTC)
- Fantastique! Hopefully, they'll respond and firmly quench Henry's enthusiasm.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 15:54, 1 April 2009 (UTC)
- It has been a difficult task for the only one (namely *moi*) live-French member who joined you two guys to "quench" the enthusiasm of Henry who seems to be riding back & backward on a one-way dirt road to pre-One Hundred Years' War, ignoring the conflict ended five+ centuries ago. None of our arguments touch or convince him. It has turned into a non-ending affair that may outlive all of us. My suggestion is that we revert Henry every time he comes riding his horse brandishing Henry VI of England as king of France. Since this seems to be a 3 to 1 affair, he'll always be stopped by the three-revert rule. Up to now, we have bent over backward to be nice & polite to him. Personally, I am out of argument & desire to fight that war all over again. Signing for Jeanne d'Arc: Frania W. (talk) 16:38, 1 April 2009 (UTC)
I suggest that we keep Henry VI in a separate table just like all the other Kings but precede his with the long established note. There is certainly no legitimate reason to POV push for Henry being the only true King. Neither should he be completely obliterated. I think that's a compromise acknowledging all legitimate concerns but nothing more (and I agree that HENRY has gone way beyond this). PS. Nationality of editors should not be an issue in this. Str1977 (talk) 22:24, 3 April 2009 (UTC)
- Nationality had nothing to do with this and no one mentioned anything to do with nationality.Frania is just saying she is french.Anyway about youre statement about me going overboard,what did I go overboard in(what way) LOL.Thanks for helping.--HENRY V OF ENGLAND (talk) 23:13, 3 April 2009 (UTC)
- Henry, this wasn't directed to you. But please do not make such nonsensical claims that no one said anything about nationality. Frania did just above, bring his being the only Frenchman here into the argument. As I said, it makes no difference whether an editor is French, English, German or Zulu. Str1977 (talk) 15:51, 5 April 2009 (UTC)
- Nationality had nothing to do with this and no one mentioned anything to do with nationality.Frania is just saying she is french.Anyway about youre statement about me going overboard,what did I go overboard in(what way) LOL.Thanks for helping.--HENRY V OF ENGLAND (talk) 23:13, 3 April 2009 (UTC)
"From 1422 Henry VI of England controlled much of northern France in accordance with the Plantagenet claim to the French crown, although Charles VII held sway over large areas in the south of France." *south of France* should be south of the Loire River, which is not the same, as the Loire runs at the bottom of France's top third, the second third being the center of France & the third the real south of France. Would everyone agree that this should be changed? Frania W. (talk) 02:50, 4 April 2009 (UTC)
- Str1977, I was the one who requested the assistance of French editors to help resolve this dispute. Obviously, French people study the history of the Hundred Years War at school more extensively than editors of other nationalities, thus can offer insights that non-French people cannot due to lack of education on the subject at hand. Last year, I had a problem with an article I was editing on medieval Russian nobility and I sought help from Russian editors, which to my way of thinking was the best course of action to take. I am hoping that more French editors will come forward to help us with this problem. Frania is correct about Charles's rule over large areas south of the Loire, being more accurate than the vague south of France. Southern France implies Provence, Gascony, Toulouse, etc.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 06:14, 4 April 2009 (UTC)
- It still doesn't matter. No, French people do no per se have greater knowledge on this. School lessons are seldomly a good basis for a neutral perspective on historical topics, especially if - as in this topic - nationalism is involved. I do not want to exclude French editors - certainly not! - but neither do they have special authority. And yes, I agree with Frania on this too. Also note that Charles controlled most territory south of the Loire with the notable exception of Aquitaine. Str1977 (talk) 15:51, 5 April 2009 (UTC)
- Str1977, I was the one who requested the assistance of French editors to help resolve this dispute. Obviously, French people study the history of the Hundred Years War at school more extensively than editors of other nationalities, thus can offer insights that non-French people cannot due to lack of education on the subject at hand. Last year, I had a problem with an article I was editing on medieval Russian nobility and I sought help from Russian editors, which to my way of thinking was the best course of action to take. I am hoping that more French editors will come forward to help us with this problem. Frania is correct about Charles's rule over large areas south of the Loire, being more accurate than the vague south of France. Southern France implies Provence, Gascony, Toulouse, etc.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 06:14, 4 April 2009 (UTC)
- Both jeanne and frania are rigth.South of the Loire seems to be a more authentic and correct term then south of the freance.--HENRY V OF ENGLAND (talk) 11:11, 4 April 2009 (UTC)
To all: The following is my answer to a note left on my talk page by Str1977. Since it concerns this article, I think it belongs here:
Str1977: Thank you for taking the time to discuss this with me. Should an agreement be reached on this one, it would be the first time the Anglos & the French agree on anything! That's why I began my comment with "Speaking for the French side" - and I trust that in my various comments, you detect the "witty" side of me.
- On a discussion page, I feel that everyone can speak freely & expose his/her point of view as long as that POV is not carried into the article, that is what the discussion page is about with the aim of reaching consensus. It also happens that this article is on French history, and it seems to me quite normal that within the international debate symposium offered by Wikipedia, a French person could/should/would take part in a discussion relative to the history of France & explain the French view on the matter. I hope you noticed that I have not forced my POV on anyone, just discussed it while having a fun little duel with our dear friend HENRY V OF ENGLAND. Please also note that I have not even touched the paragraph within the article and, regarding what I think should be changed, I mentioned it on the discussion page asking if everyone would agree, ex: having "south of the Loire River" instead of "south of France" which is totally misleading.
- If I understand you correctly, you do not accept the parallel I made with the Parlement de Paris breaking L.XIV's will because it was at a latter period; at the time of which we speak, the right of succession to the throne of France was the same: the dauphin was the legal heir to the throne and, if disinherited, had every right to fight for his right - whether his name was Charles (to be VII) or, at a later date, Philippe d'Orléans or Philip V of Spain, had all of L.XIV's direct heirs within France died - which would have been the signal for a war between France & Spain (and Austria), since the king of Spain was a grandson of L.XIV... In our discussion, we could also make a parallel between Charles VI's testament disinheriting his son (followed by the Treaty of Troyes), and Charles II of Spain's testament, which was opening the door for another battle of succession had the young Louis XV died. Every argument was based on direct & legitimate lineage down to the next guy until the direct line was exhausted, then cousins, nephews etc. could step in.
- On the legitimity of the dauphin: the second a dying king let out his last breath, came the announcement: Le Roi est mort. Vive le Roi!. And the dauphin was king.
- Back to Henry VI of England: there is no argument as to his having been crowned king of France at Notre Dame de Paris - historians do not deny the fact - but he is not listed as king of France because of all the reasons we discussed previously, some of these reasons having a different interpretation whether you are anglais ou français.
A couple of weeks ago, GoodDay had found the perfect wording for the mention of Henry VI of England in the list of French monarchs & that is the type of consensus we should aim at. Now, if you come up with something better, I am sure we'll reach consensus.
Cordialement, Frania W. (talk) 16:34, 5 April 2009 (UTC)
- Frania, Thanks for your message.
- Agreement need to be reached only in regard to how to word a certain article, not on the differing opinions.
- And sure you may express your opinion on the matter anytime. My nod to NPOV was not meant to preclude that but to insist that the article cannot be indentical to any one side of the debate.
- I for my part am actually not on the other side from you - maybe because I am neither French nor English (but then I do not know of what nationality our friend HENRY is) - as I think that the Valois had a much better claim to the throne than any Plantagenet or Lancastrian, at least after Philip VI was firmly settled on the throne (OTOH, I see that Edward III mainly aimed at securing his continental possessions, not at conquering the whole of France - a goal he never pursued to the end). And what was questionable for the still largely French-speaking Edward was bad for the by then completely Anglicised Harry. The Dual Monarchy HENRY speaks about turned out to be largely a sham, as de facto English lords commanded in France. This propelled the actions of Jean Darc.
- And sure French editors should take part in this debate. The only thing I reject is the impression that French editors are per se more qualified. But I have no complaints against you in that regard.
- And sure the south of France sounds a little bit like: well, he held the Provence.
- Yes, I do not accept the validity of your Louis XIV example because it was of a MUCH LATER period and because it is of course based on a French legal position that was long solidified in the 17th century - a thing we cannot simply assume for the 15th century (you might know that when one looks at even earlier times that France once was an elective monarchy). My point is that the King could disinherit his son and the son could contest that decision by the means avaiable (just as Edward III could contest Philip's succession by the means avaiable). I know of the Spanish sucession issue but am strongly of the opinion that in relinquishing his rights to the sucession, Philip did indeed do just that. One cannot take back one's word (that is the problem I also have with Edward III's sudden claim).
- "On the legitimity of the dauphin: the second a dying king let out his last breath, came the announcement: Le Roi est mort. Vive le Roi!. And the dauphin was king." - When? Already in this day? And who is the legitimate heir that supposedly suceeds in this second? That by all means was the question so even the questionable principle you mention doesn't help. I call it questionable because it is a legal fiction that in the end has done more bad than good (some countries had mad kings because of it). And if taken seriously, the announcement would be superfluous.
- Henry is not listed as a King of France because the Valois perspective that he was an interloper prevailed politically and historically. Our list reflects that as we do not insert Henry as the sucessor of Charles VI (instead of Charles VII) - this would be the English POV - or even insert both contestant immediately after Charles VII - a quasi-neutral position. No, I inserted Henry at the next section break. This is because history does look backwards from the hindsight of how things turned out. The quasi-neutral stance would be proper if we were doing this article in the year 1425.
- Is GoodDay's wording that paragraph currently in place in the Lancaster section? If so, I am absolutely content with it. The only thing I want is that the section also includes the box for Henry VI. with a neutral presentation of the dates provided (not the POV slugfest that HENRY had put in there). I do think that this solution is something better.
- Cordially, Str1977 (talk) 21:22, 5 April 2009 (UTC)
Having read the various comments by Str1977, I would like to add a couple of things:
- It may be interesting to have non-English/American educated editors in this en:wiki.
- The mention of my nationality came up after Jeanne Boleyn had written I'm surprised that more French editors have not come forward to assist in this discussion, to which I answered: It has been a difficult task for the only one (namely *moi*) live-French member who...
- I am way passed the student age & what I know of French history and other subjects has not much to do with what I learned in school. My knowledge is based on lifelong interests & work.
- My participation to en:wiki these past few months cannot be rejected or demeaned because I am French. The example I gave earlier of the *south of the Loire River* vs *south of France* makes a point. Most Americans I know do not even know what south of the Loire River means. And I could go on with many examples of things found on this en:wiki concerning France.
- It is also very interesting to read what a non-French encyclopedia tells about people & events of France and to participate in its redaction.
- I am not a Frenchman but a Frenchwoman.
Frania W. (talk) 18:07, 5 April 2009 (UTC)
- In response to this last bit: Let me reiterate (I have said so before and never otherwise) that of course all nationalities are welcome. If I misunderstood your comment, I am sorry about that, but I think what I wrote at least in my intial response is also valid, even if no one did that. I no way do I demean your work (and I certainly have never done that). For those that do not know what the river Loire is, we have wikilinks. And finally, I will keep in mind for the future that you are a woman. I think Frenchmen can be applied gender-neutrally - at least until Frenchpeople comes up (and let's hope it never comes to this). Again, no offense intended. Str1977 (talk) 21:22, 5 April 2009 (UTC)
- I was the one who asked for French help, as did GoodDay who put in a request at Wiki Project France. Frania was kind enough to offer her input. Neither of these acts are against Wikipedian policy. I have many problems with Henry VI lsited as a French monarch, the first being his number; do we cal him Henry II, thus necessitating a renumerification of all the French monarchs, thereby hopefully confusing the readers and inviting the scorn of historians and academics; Margaret of Anjou, Henry's consort is known in history as an English queen consort, not French, however with Henry being listed as a French monarch until 1453, we would perforce have to list Margaret as a French queen consort, thereby, once again revising history; The House of Lancaster is not a recognised French royal dynasty along with Capet, Valois and Bourbon, thus Wikipedia shouldn't have it; finally, just because Henry was crowned king, does not mean we need regard him as a French monarch; do we list Lambert Simnel, as an English monarch with the House of Simnel interpolated with the House of Tudor because Simnel was crowned King of England in Dublin? Oh, what a coil!--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 06:16, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
- HELLO Jeanne you are forgetting the treaty of troyes which dissinherited Charles VII and as next in line Henry VI succeded to the french throne consilidating a "DOUBLE-MONARCHY".Henry was the legal heir and both charles VII and Henry VI inherited half of france.AS for Lambert Simnel he is a pretender to the english throne,Because he was crowned in ireland how does that make him king of england when it was in Dublin LOL.in the least he could probably be listed as kings with the title Lord of Ireland.Anyway Ireland was in a personal union with england until 1802.A simeral example can be seen with Erdward the bruce who crowned himeself lord of Ireland and was the only scottish lord to become lord of ireland.Now as I previously said about Margerat.Isabell well known as the wife of Edward II married him when edward was still prince of wales,However she never in fact took up the title as princess of wales like the later princess succesers therefore it should be told that the same could apply for Margerat since she was of the house Valious and if she took up the title it could have made her family unhappy.And please read those books I mentioned earlier since they all say Henry VI succeded to the french throne in 1422 and in turn was crowned king of france in 1431.Henry indeed was a french soveriegn and king.Also how can historion scorn wikipedia for mentioning Henry as a french monarch when theyre the ones who debatted he was LOL.--HENRY V OF ENGLAND (talk) 08:15, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
Something I lest on GoodDay talk page:
- I am curious to know what, in his own time, Henry VI of England was called as also king of France? Has anyone come across copy of original documents showing him as *Henry VI of England, King of England and King of France* or *Henry VI of England, Henry II of France*? Because if at his coronation at ND de Paris he was made king of France with the title ~*Henry II of France*, then it is obvious that this was canned years later when the Anglos were kicked out of France. Also, how do English historians (not wikipedians) mention him as a king of France? *Henry II of France*? The reason I am asking is that in English books, the king of France *Henri IV, le Vert-Galant*, (who wanted every family to have a chicken in the pot on Sundays) is named *Henry IV of France*, not *Henry V of France*, and as king of France, *Henry VI of England* could not be Henry VI but, as Jeanne pointed out several times, Henry II, but the French had someone else as *Henry II*. Frania W. (talk) 23:38, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
Hello Charvex and greetings.I saw your comments on the french list of monarchs and about Henry VI.I actualy gave sources in the start of the disscution which state Henry inherited both England and France.You stated that because Henry didnt inherit france as a whole even though he was de jure king of france,that he shouldnt be listed as a french king is rong due to the fact that charles wasnt legaly supoosed to inherit anything and he also didnt have de facto soveriegnty of the entire country.Therefore both charles and henry succeded as french kings.Also the house of lancaster is not a ruling house of france even though Henry was king of france.A house means a multiple of rulers within the same dynasty,thus henry was the only lancastrian king of france and so the house of lancaster is not regognized as a french house.We cant deny the fact however henry succeded to the throne of france in 1422 along with Charles VII.I would also like to state that because he used phrases like LOL dosent mean I am going against NPOV,I am just using it just to be nice and not forceful in my debate.HERE is a listf sources when you have the time to read on the topic of france and Henry VI:
http://books.google.ie/books?id=7ZABAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA104&dq=henry+vi+was+king+of+france&as_brr=3 http://books.google.ie/books?id=yX0DAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA216&dq=henry+vi+was+king+of+france&as_brr=3#PPA220,M1
I strongly advise this one to read: http://books.google.ie/books?id=kFSqKelemSMC&pg=PA23&dq=henry+vi+was+king+of+france+1422&as_brr=3#PPA26,M1 Because Henry VI didnt inherit the dauphine that he is thus not heir is not correct due to the fact that because someone recieves the title dauphine it is in no way a prequiste for french kingship,no difference from bieng earl of chester or cronwall is for english kingship,thus you dont have to be dauphine in order to be an heir.So Henry didnt need de facto soveriegnty in the dauphine in order to assert his throne of france as something vital for his kingship as king of france.Goodbye.--HENRY V OF ENGLAND (talk) 17:44, 17 April 2009 (UTC)
Rightful king
- The interpolation of the House of Lancaster reminds me of the Papal schism. Are we to list Charles VII as the rightful king and Henry VI as the anti-king Henri II?!--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 16:25, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
- Yes, like matter and antimatter. Frania W. (talk) 16:35, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
- Oh, I see you have read Angels and Demons by Dan Brown!--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 16:37, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
- During the Western Schism, there were concurrently up to 3 Popes (thanks to the College of Cardinals having divided into 3 Colleges). After the schism ended, the Catholic Church chose to retroactively regonize only the Roman line as Popes. The Avignon & Pisan lines disqualifed. Can we not adopt the same pratice here? France having retroactively disqaulifed Henry as King of France? GoodDay (talk) 16:44, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
- Actually, I cannot accept such a relativistic approach. It might be difficult to see during the day but in hindsight the question of Rome vs. Avignon is easy to solve. It is more difficult with the Pisan pope (which lasted basically a decade) but even that is not so hard. And it was not "retroactively" - it was already done by the Council of Constance which deposed two Popes while the Roman one resigned. Still, all three lineages are equally listed and none is simply listed as anti-pope. Hence, what you suggest is NOT doing the same thing. France has no way to impose a POV on a WP article - it must be NPOV. Hence terms like King and Anti-King are out of order. Str1977 (talk) 22:06, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
- GoodDAY, as usual you always manage to devise the most sensible courses of action to take. Let's get this show on the road and knock off Henry's paper French crown!--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 16:51, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
- Talk like this is unacceptable. We are here to record, not to knock off any crowns. Str1977 (talk) 22:06, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
- Should en:wiki include Henry VI of England in list of French monarchs, it would be the only one to do so. I do not mean to imply that one is automatically wrong against everyone else, but one better come up with infallible argumentation. In the case at hand, I do not believe wiki mediators to be qualified to decide, historically speaking. The only wiki to mention Henry VI (or rather Henry V) is fr:wiki with the following paragraph in Charles VII's box.
- Devient roi de France à la mort de son père Charles VI, le 21 octobre 1422, refusant d'entériner le traité de Troyes qui le déshéritait au profit d'Henri V d'Angleterre. Est sacré à Reims le 17 juillet 1429 grâce à l'aide de Jeanne d'Arc. Meurt le 22 juillet 1461.
- Frania W. (talk) 17:41, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
- But the question is not whether Charles VII became King on his father's death. The question is whether Henry VI also became King at the time. Other WPs are in no way RS for our aritcle here. Str1977 (talk) 22:06, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
- I think we should have a consensus here as to whether or not include Henry as a French monarch. This needs to be resolved.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 18:02, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
- Yes, but not by breaking NPOV.
- What we can do is add "disputed by Henry VI of England" in Charles VII's box and "disputed by Charles VII" in Henry's box or something the like. The placing of Henry in a separate section already gives Charles a bit of an edge. But no anti-king stuff please. Str1977 (talk) 22:06, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
- So, we just leave as is and simply edit text to both Charles VII & Henry VI with the *disputed* mention to each. Frania W. (talk) 23:10, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
- I am neutral on the subject, being only 1/8th French myself. I am just striving for historical accuracy. I think we should follow the French Wikipedia, as honestly, the French editors are probably more cognizant of the political intricities and legal ramifications of the Treaty of Troyes than editors with just a superficial knowledge of the Hundred Years War.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 08:08, 7 April 2009 (UTC)
- As said in my book,Henry was anknowledged as rightful king of france by northen frencgmen,The estates-general,Burgundy and its subjects,Pope martin V,Emperor Sigsumend,The king of Spain,The king of Portugal,The duke of brittiny,The counts of Foix and most importantly england ireland and wales.Henry was said to be of descent of saint louis both through his father and mother making a double inheritence.Charles usurped legal authority from Henry VI(Henri II OF France) by taking possetion of the south which was not lawfully his.Charles was regognized king of france hardly in fact in the south because the princes didnt think he would succede and in turn wouldnt suffer Bedfords eventual wrath.Above all the english made perfect uses of propaganda from 1422-1429.Bedford refused the title to charles as charles VII,Whom anknowledges himeslf as dauphine in public events and the Dual-monarchy awe inspired a new coinage in france in 1422 as Henry as king of france.Henry during his corination was given a shield of the lion ramparts as king of england on his left and 3 fleur-de-lys on his right thus anknowledging the double-monarchy.The citizens ran and greated him in paris and remember what was chaanted in france and england after charles VI deat "Long live Henry king of England and France".Bedford made everyone aware of france new lancastrian king and informed them of henrys legitimacy and wothlessness of his counter-part.We may as well say Charles Had the paper crown since he inherited apart of the kingdom Illegaly without concestion.Lets not forget what charles did in 1420 when he even usurped legal authority from HIS FATHER!!!!.He refused also a coyrt summons in 1421 and in fact it wasnt the treaty that confirmed his dissinheritence it was the refusal to obey the soveriegn..There were actualy talks between the english aand french if they should move a joint army in oreder to capture charles in the south or in least bannish him.None of the following however had actualy happend in a royal decree form that bannished the dauphne.We cant have heirs not even KINGS RUNNING AROUND commiting havoc and murrder when theyre not even soveriegn yet.Charles was dissinherited justfuly and as I said previously it wasnt the treaty that absolutely in fact that confirmed this it was TREASON AGAINST THE SOVERIEGN CHARLES VI!!!!!!!.Charles was thus never legaly iin line to inherit anything due to his crimes against france the problem was in 1422 however and since Henry VI was the legal succeser of Charles VI he inherited his LEGAL possetion(North of France) However he was never de facto of the entire realm that co-exists as France and so he became de jure instead and de facto of the north.How could have charles succeded as the legal soveriegn under the law when he was dissinherited along with all his rights including his so called moot name as dauphine.The novelty of the dual-monarchy and the extraordinary emotional and material demands it imposed on englishmen and northen frenchmen,prompted Henry VI(Henri II) Advisers to muster every avaliable resource to acclaim the monarchys inauguriation after Charles VI death in 1422.Writters,designers,Illuminators and administors flushed to france,Bedford even sought out northen french oppinion on henry VI and even sought international oppinion(mostly positive).When a canon of Rheims defaced the genealogy of Henry bieng descent of saint louis his punishment was to make two coppies, one in RHEIMS and the other in PARIS.What more of France do you need in order to anknowledge the fact that henry was king of france and england.We may as well take out Anyt other french and english monarch out of the list since you are all going purely by regognition.Edward IV my friends was not regognized king in all of england.Henry was king of france.--HENRY V OF ENGLAND (talk) 15:29, 7 April 2009 (UTC)
- Charles VII was by divine right, the true successor to his father, Charles VI who was insane when he put his seal to the Treaty of Troyes.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 15:36, 7 April 2009 (UTC)
- I reckon, Henry is gonna be on this list to stay. But, let's leave our the Henry II of France stuff, please. GoodDay (talk) 15:56, 7 April 2009 (UTC)
- It cannot be added, otherwise we screw up the numerical order of the Kings of France. Can you imagine listing Henri IV as Henri V?! What a coil!--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 16:12, 7 April 2009 (UTC)
- The problem is references & reliable sources. I'll I have are my Funk & Wagnall encylopedias. GoodDay (talk) 16:20, 7 April 2009 (UTC)
- Which is why we both requested French help. BTW, encyclopedias are reliable sources.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 16:21, 7 April 2009 (UTC)
- My F&W's Henry VI of England entry, does not list him as a King of France, even though it mentions his military forces having occupied parts of France. GoodDay (talk) 16:38, 7 April 2009 (UTC)
- Therefore the Wikipedia article needs to state just that. Why should it revise history?--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 16:42, 7 April 2009 (UTC)
- We'll need a Mediation Committee to solve this stalemate. GoodDay (talk) 16:50, 7 April 2009 (UTC)
- I'll drink to that.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 16:56, 7 April 2009 (UTC)
- Hello Jeanne.You cant say It was because of divine-right charles succeded,it was as the other user rightfully pointed out was due to acceptence of the land that the valious succeded.In my book called Agincourt by Jane Bakerr it says that the valious house usurped the throne of the female daughters of france and made up false prequistes about salic law,which stated no women can succeded.Salic law was wrong in meaning anyway and sure what can they do they had to agree to the False Legitimacy of the valious line.This so called salic law anyway didnt say anything about inheritence through women rather then succestion for private land(common land) and this was fact.Edward was in fact the rightful king but the french arrogently shunted his better claim and so Philip became king not by divine right but by acceptence of the land and obviously what frenchman or frenchwomen would want a english king on the french throne.To say that god was with charles VII was wrong when Henry V was achiving his just possetions while Charles was in the scandel with The murder of John the Fearless.Charles was JUSTLY dissinherited due to his crimes against france and to add he took authority from Charles VI.The english were blessed with victorios because God was on Henry V side.As said times again the treaty of troyes fudged the past.Henry was a french monarch without doubt and was anknowledged internationaly and by more then half-of france including the nobility.Henry is here to stay.
P.S.GoodDay Enclopedias only give a basic overview and dont go in to detail most of the time.Also Jeanne how are we revising history when history and historions state that Henry succeded to the french throne.It satates this also in documentries,PRESENTERS like "David Starkey".--HENRY V OF ENGLAND (talk) 14:15, 8 April 2009 (UTC)
- Now on the matter of Henry VI bieng HenRY II of France.As we know france was a former monarchy ruled by contending houses which became the soveriegn eg.(Valouis,Capetian, ect...).Houses also had contending claims to others.Lancaster apperantly succeded to the french throne in 1422 until 1453.They were in dispute with the valious house.When Henry VI succeded de jure king of france in 1422 and was crowned in 1431 he had the title Henri II of france.for this I am not going to say the english were expelled but rather the lancastrians.As the lancastrians were completely expelled from france until 1453 Henry was no longer king of france even though he continued to some extend to claim he was.The valious succeded for a few more centurys and so established themeselves firmly as french monarchs.Henry II of france was of the house of valious so if he called himeself Henri III of france then he would have admitted the lancastrians were the legitimate king i.e giving the title to Heney VI of england,therfore if he did then he wouldnt havee the legitimacy to rule france and to even be styled Henry III of France.The valious therefore could not hope to style there king with an extra numeral as they would HAVE PROVEN they were in fact illigitimate so in theroy there was in fact two Henri II of france but unfotunately historions went with the later but also continued to style Henry VI as also bieng Henry II of France as part of the double monarchy and so because the two kings of france were of different houses and had overlapping claims they have to style there soveriegn patronge due to what is legitimate to of that house wether it be lancaster or valious.There are actualy two henry II of france as part of my conclustion to this as it is completely correct without doubt.--HENRY V OF ENGLAND (talk) 14:37, 8 April 2009 (UTC)
- MY CONDITIONS - I'll accept having Henry VI of England at this article, on 2 conditions. 1) Charles VII's reign continues to be shown as 1422 to 1461 & 2) Henry VI does not us the name Henry II of France. GoodDay (talk) 15:28, 8 April 2009 (UTC)
- Then, why don't we leave it as is with the mention "disputed" as had been proposed several times earlier? Quoting Str1977 at 22:06, on 6 April 2009 (UTC): ***What we can do is add "disputed by Henry VI of England" in Charles VII's box and "disputed by Charles VII" in Henry's box or something the like.*** Frania W. (talk) 16:21, 8 April 2009 (UTC)
- That's acceptable. GoodDay (talk) 16:24, 8 April 2009 (UTC)
- Then, why don't we leave it as is with the mention "disputed" as had been proposed several times earlier? Quoting Str1977 at 22:06, on 6 April 2009 (UTC): ***What we can do is add "disputed by Henry VI of England" in Charles VII's box and "disputed by Charles VII" in Henry's box or something the like.*** Frania W. (talk) 16:21, 8 April 2009 (UTC)
- MY CONDITIONS - I'll accept having Henry VI of England at this article, on 2 conditions. 1) Charles VII's reign continues to be shown as 1422 to 1461 & 2) Henry VI does not us the name Henry II of France. GoodDay (talk) 15:28, 8 April 2009 (UTC)
- Now on the matter of Henry VI bieng HenRY II of France.As we know france was a former monarchy ruled by contending houses which became the soveriegn eg.(Valouis,Capetian, ect...).Houses also had contending claims to others.Lancaster apperantly succeded to the french throne in 1422 until 1453.They were in dispute with the valious house.When Henry VI succeded de jure king of france in 1422 and was crowned in 1431 he had the title Henri II of france.for this I am not going to say the english were expelled but rather the lancastrians.As the lancastrians were completely expelled from france until 1453 Henry was no longer king of france even though he continued to some extend to claim he was.The valious succeded for a few more centurys and so established themeselves firmly as french monarchs.Henry II of france was of the house of valious so if he called himeself Henri III of france then he would have admitted the lancastrians were the legitimate king i.e giving the title to Heney VI of england,therfore if he did then he wouldnt havee the legitimacy to rule france and to even be styled Henry III of France.The valious therefore could not hope to style there king with an extra numeral as they would HAVE PROVEN they were in fact illigitimate so in theroy there was in fact two Henri II of france but unfotunately historions went with the later but also continued to style Henry VI as also bieng Henry II of France as part of the double monarchy and so because the two kings of france were of different houses and had overlapping claims they have to style there soveriegn patronge due to what is legitimate to of that house wether it be lancaster or valious.There are actualy two henry II of france as part of my conclustion to this as it is completely correct without doubt.--HENRY V OF ENGLAND (talk) 14:37, 8 April 2009 (UTC)
- To HENRY V who wrote: ***The murder of John the Fearless.Charles was JUSTLY dissinherited due to his crimes against france and to add he took authority from Charles VI.The english were blessed with victorios because God was on Henry V side.*** The murder of John the Fearless was no more no less than other murders done or ordered by everyone else, as they were killing each other with a fury at the time. As to God being on Henry V's side, this makes me smile because it means that, when Jeanne d'Arc came along, God changed side, implying He chose the wrong side before or He double-crossed the English! Makes for interesting History... Frania W. (talk) 16:21, 8 April 2009 (UTC)
Here is refs clearly stating Charles was one of the leading murderers in the schandl of Montreui in 1419. pp.283 http://books.google.ie/books?id=dSCA2apwD8IC&pg=PA283&dq=Charles+VII+was+respnsible+for+the+murder+of+John+the+Fearless
- Hello Frania glad you came back.First of all God is the most just he never double-crosses anyone.God becomes angry with those whom transeagress and people who are cockey.The english after the asscestion of Henry VI to the throne were besicly destroying france as it was if france was burned to ashes and inocent people were killed by the english.God thus didnt double-cross or himeself transeagress he punished them.As for jeanne d arc she led to to the french revival.God was on the side of Henry V becauase he paid respect to Richard II thomb and did every single thing in order to refrain from the spillage of christian blood.What were the french doing at agincourt,they were laughing and jerring in the night and drinking wine and making fun of henry V they were way to sure of victory and thats what I call being cockey.Henrys soldiors were praying asking god to turn away from us the might of the french and the sense of piety was strong in the camp.Henry also orderd no civilian to be harmed onless he was with arms.As said before it wasnt the treaty that confirmed Charles Dissinheritence it was the way he acted to his father.He usurped legal authority from Henry V(REGENT) and Charles VI(SOVERIEGN) who is this allowed never mind the king but HEIR.This was without question TREASON!!!! and is punisheable by death or bannishement(no matter even if the person is the brother of the king or son).Henry V prommised in paris he will be just and promised to avenge the death of John the fearless in 1419.Charles is put responisable because they were his soldiors and as you state everyone wanted him killed is wrong since Charles VI had nothing to do with it and nether Iseabeu of Bravia.It was Charles who was leader of the armagnac party upon inheriting the title dauphine so he is pretty much as involved as johns murder and he is held responible since he was responible for his soldiors the same way the king is responible for his people and so on.Even though he didnt actuAly commit the murder on the bridge it just shows the carelessness involved in leadership and as I said it was his responibility no matter what he claims to defend himeself.Above all Charles has no reason or any claim to defend himeself from refusing a courts summon in 1421 and plus USURPING legal authority from the annointed soveriegn.Sory Frania I personaly however or mayebe even no one can answer for Jeanne D arcs vision since I havent had any visions lately LOL.That still remains unanswerd since you cant know how someone feels when they have a vision.Also didnt jeanne D arc also lose a few battles as well Frania,Not to add Charles didnt do anything to save her so how can charles even show he was a trustworthy king.To me he is a Lame example of a just and good king.Historions actualy never gave the victory of orleons to Charles butn rather to jeanne and also all the batles from 1429-1431.Charles wasnt inspiring at all it was Jeanne and she without doubt has my credit since charles may as well go set up another kingdom if it wasnt for her.In fact Charles actualy started to question his own legitimacy before 1429 and when he was proclaimed king in 1422 it wasnt happy mood at all lol.--HENRY V OF ENGLAND (talk) 17:28, 8 April 2009 (UTC)
- Hello GoodDay your conditions are accepted Henry will not use the name Henry II of France and Charles reign will continue as 1422-1461(even though I said this ages ago LOL.).I am glad of your acceptence.--HENRY V OF ENGLAND (talk) 17:33, 8 April 2009 (UTC)
- Hello Frania.The main point is to have henry vi as a french monarch.The user said we should use to the words disputed but obviously his main point was to have him in the list.Goodbye.--HENRY V OF ENGLAND (talk) 18:04, 8 April 2009 (UTC)
- I will make this one single post to this discussion about the, dare I say, ridiculously Anglophilic (or Anglo-Saxon) decision to include Henry VI and the House of Lancaster in this list. Henry V slaughtered the French nobility at Agincourt in 1415, followed by another invasion in 1417. Catherine, daughter of Charles VI was forced to wed Henry V in 1420. His successor Henry VI reputedly became king of « France and England ». But, how anyone can call a tyrant invader who only temporarily held ground until Jeanne d'Arc began achieving successes only nine years later, and of course, by 1436 drove the English forces from Paris, simply escapes me. Henri VI never ruled lands south of the Loire controlled by Charles, including Midi, Centre, and West excluding noteworthy seaports, and never controlled Lyon. -- Including « House of Lancaster » as if it were a line of succession for France is laughable! Do English textbooks show Henry VI in the list of kings of France ??!! Very amusing ! - - This sillyness is not mentioned in any other similar Wikipédia article. I almost deleted it myself until I saw this long, inane discussion, and saw it was pointless. To those of you are continuing the fight for removal, bonne chance ! Charvex (talk) 07:27, 15 April 2009 (UTC)
- It is not ridicioules.That offers no basis.Please read the refs at the end.It contains sources from Oxford and Cambridge.Highlighting "Henry bieng a crinnimal of war is no help to the article.Are you forgetting the lit-de justice of 1421 when Charles refused a legal summons and thus was stripped of his titles and lands and was found incapable of succestion because of lese-majesty.I agree the de jure stuff I previously mentioned in my arguements are pointless since both Kings had a basis of claim to follow.--HENRY V OF ENGLAND (talk) 16:03, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
- Charvex, given the tone of your posting it is probably for the best to refrain from further contributions until you have understood policies like NPOV. Henry is not the only ruler termed tyrant by his opponents that only held ground for a few years. To turn the fact that many nobles died in the battle of Agincourt into an accusation of Henry V is what really is laughable. Str1977 (talk) 17:52, 15 April 2009 (UTC)
- RE Jeanne's ***I'm surprised that more French editors have not come forward to assist in this discussion...*** : Here you have it!!! Merci Charvex! As there is no more for me to add, I am stepping out of the discussion, be it on Henry VI of England or, latest victim of the rewriting of History, Marguerite d'Anjou. Cordialement, Frania W. (talk) 14:09, 15 April 2009 (UTC)
- To Str1977: I regret that I cannot ignore your provocation. You are trying to act noble and highhanded (is this the right word?) by saying I am not NPOV in my comments. However, your comments and those of your colleagues, in particular HENRY V OF ENGLAND (and all of his « LOL » signs), are so completely not NPOV that I am speechless. My comments were honest & qualified but lighthearted, reflecting on the tenor of the mindless banter that makes up most of the comments here, little of which is based on facts, but show a clear Anglophile bias. --- So to the point: Please state a reliable source (Cambridge or Oxford University presses would be ideal with ISBN so I can buy it) that shows the « House of Lancaster » in the line of French royal houses and kings. I want to see this in print myself! Bien amicalement. Charvex (talk) 23:05, 15 April 2009 (UTC)
- Charvex, I did not issue any provocation but your posting was filled with nothing more than onesided proclamations of opinion. You have every right to hold these views just as HENRY V has every right to hold his views. But simply proclaiming your respective opinions (with HENRY V's posting characterised by unyielding repetivness and yours by vitriol) cannot help or even concern this article in any way. And no, I am not here to provide you with reading material, certainly not with ISBNs. The version I endorse (giving the Valois sucession without suppressing Henry's temporarily sucessful claim) is historically accurate. For your claims you have given no sources either. Str1977 (talk) 12:10, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
- To Str1977: I regret that I cannot ignore your provocation. You are trying to act noble and highhanded (is this the right word?) by saying I am not NPOV in my comments. However, your comments and those of your colleagues, in particular HENRY V OF ENGLAND (and all of his « LOL » signs), are so completely not NPOV that I am speechless. My comments were honest & qualified but lighthearted, reflecting on the tenor of the mindless banter that makes up most of the comments here, little of which is based on facts, but show a clear Anglophile bias. --- So to the point: Please state a reliable source (Cambridge or Oxford University presses would be ideal with ISBN so I can buy it) that shows the « House of Lancaster » in the line of French royal houses and kings. I want to see this in print myself! Bien amicalement. Charvex (talk) 23:05, 15 April 2009 (UTC)
- It is not ridicioules.That offers no basis.Please read the refs at the end.It contains sources from Oxford and Cambridge.Highlighting "Henry bieng a crinnimal of war is no help to the article.Are you forgetting the lit-de justice of 1421 when Charles refused a legal summons and thus was stripped of his titles and lands and was found incapable of succestion because of lese-majesty.I agree the de jure stuff I previously mentioned in my arguements are pointless since both Kings had a basis of claim to follow.--HENRY V OF ENGLAND (talk) 16:03, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
- Thank you Charvex for helping us out here with the dispute on Henry VI. I had asked for more French editors to come forward to assist us in resolving this issue. Str1977, it is not Wikipedia policy to tell other editors to refrain from further contributions. Charvex has as much right to edit on this page as anyone. As a French person his/her insight is much appreciated and badly needed on this page as well as other articles relating to the Hundred Years War.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 05:42, 16 April 2009 (UTC)
- I did not tell him to refrain. He said that he would comment only once and I commented that his one comment did not help anything if we do not want to turn this into a POV mess. (And note that he gave several POV blasts: Henry V is likened to a criminal for the casulties in war - as if that were not the normal thing, his marriage is proclaimed to be forced, irrelevant things like "they never controlled the Midi" are highlighted.) He is always welcome to edit and comment once he has understood WP policies. Str1977 (talk) 12:10, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
- Thank you Charvex for helping us out here with the dispute on Henry VI. I had asked for more French editors to come forward to assist us in resolving this issue. Str1977, it is not Wikipedia policy to tell other editors to refrain from further contributions. Charvex has as much right to edit on this page as anyone. As a French person his/her insight is much appreciated and badly needed on this page as well as other articles relating to the Hundred Years War.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 05:42, 16 April 2009 (UTC)
- I agree no POV.Only what is accepted by historions.--HENRY V OF ENGLAND (talk) 16:03, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
- By modern standards, Henry V would have been tried as a war criminal, in the 15th century his actions were seen as necessary to prevent the captured French prisoners from overpowering the English soldiers guarding them, who would have been too fatigued from battle to defend themselves against another French assault. To be fair, Henry was not considered a cruel ruler by the standards of his day.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 12:57, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
Hello Charvex and greetings.I saw your comments on the french list of monarchs and about Henry VI.I actualy gave sources in the start of the disscution which state Henry inherited both England and France.You stated that because Henry didnt inherit france as a whole even though he was de jure king of france,that he shouldnt be listed as a french king is wrong due to the fact that charles wasnt legaly supoosed to inherit anything and he also didnt have de facto soveriegnty of the entire country.Therefore both charles and henry succeded as french kings.Also the house of lancaster is not a ruling house of france even though Henry was king of france.A house means a multiple of rulers within the same dynasty,thus henry was the only lancastrian king of france and so the house of lancaster is not regognized as a french house.We cant deny the fact however henry succeded to the throne of france in 1422 along with Charles VII.I would also like to state that because I used phrases like LOL dosent mean I am going against NPOV,I am just using it just to be nice and not forceful in my debate.HERE is a listf sources when you have the time to read on the topic of france and Henry VI:
http://books.google.ie/books?id=7ZABAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA104&dq=henry+vi+was+king+of+france&as_brr=3 http://books.google.ie/books?id=yX0DAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA216&dq=henry+vi+was+king+of+france&as_brr=3#PPA220,M1 --HENRY V OF ENGLAND (talk) 17:46, 17 April 2009
- Because Henry VI didnt inherit the dauphine that he is thus not heir is not correct due to the fact that because someone recieves the title dauphine it is in no way a prequiste for french kingship,no difference from bieng earl of chester or cronwall is for english kingship,thus you dont have to be dauphine in order to be an heir.So Henry didnt need de facto soveriegnty in the dauphine in order to assert his throne of france as something vital for his kingship as king of france.Goodbye--HENRY V OF ENGLAND (talk) 17:50, 17 April 2009 (UTC)
- Henry VI was the disputed de jure king of France until 1453, and recognised only in the English-controlled territories. Let's leave it at that. He cannot be given equal standing with Charles VII as a rightful French sovereign--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 18:40, 17 April 2009 (UTC)
- Let's leave out the de jure and everything is fine. The term is meaningless as any king is de jure. Str1977 (talk) 12:10, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
Yes.I agree.Both Charles AND Henry VI were disputed de jure Kings of France.I think we should go with Str1977 sugestion that the de jure stuff is meaningless and of no value to this.
Anglo-French relations
- Talk:Louis_VIII_of_France#Added_to_category_of_English_Monarchs
- Talk:Henry_VI_of_England#King_of_France
This topic really needs to be fleshed out more. Too often, editors simply gloss over stereotypical disputes between them, but do not really show how gray the relations truly are, over so many centuries. I would really support any further examination of Louis and Henry in the other's home kingdom. I don't believe they need to be named according to numeric order, but the implications can still be noted. I would only note that John's rule was disputed by Louis and that Charles's rule was disputed by Henry, but they don't otherwise need to be put independently in each other's royal lists. Added to this, is the marriage of Francis II of France to Marie Stuart, which meant he also claimed England and Ireland as well. Catterick (talk) 23:15, 17 April 2009 (UTC)
- Louis's claim against John differs tremendously from Henry VI's claim against Charles VII. The latter was based on actual control of the country and a (albeit disputed) French legal basis, not just an outside claim. Str1977 (talk) 11:45, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
- Francis had no right to claim England, neither did Mary Stuart as long as Elizabeth I still lived. It was Mary's refusal to ratify the Treaty of Edinburgh that incurred the emnity of Queen Elizabeth who was the rightful sovereign of England. Mary also had no right to will the crown of England to Philip of Spain just to spite her son James.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 05:45, 18 April 2009 (UTC)
- This is not about "true right to claim", only reflection of French claims in England (including vassalage of the Norman, Breton and Aquitainian dukes) and English claims in France. They overlapped and canceled each other out to some extent. Catterick (talk) 07:36, 18 April 2009 (UTC)
- And if one talked about the claims it is not true that Mary Stuart had no claim to England as long as Elisabeth lived, given the disputed legitimacy of the marriage that produced Elisabeth. That Mary was next in line after her was not disputed - in fact in 1603, Mary's son did succeed. Str1977 (talk) 11:45, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
- This is not about "true right to claim", only reflection of French claims in England (including vassalage of the Norman, Breton and Aquitainian dukes) and English claims in France. They overlapped and canceled each other out to some extent. Catterick (talk) 07:36, 18 April 2009 (UTC)
- Yes, it's really not surprising that the Plantagenet kings claimed France, seeing as they were French themselves originally, and Edward III was the grandson of Philip IV. I believe that after Matilda of Scotland, Anne Boleyn was the first queen consort of England with actual English ancestry.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 14:28, 18 April 2009 (UTC)
- Foreign ancestry of consorts is hardly a seldom and surprising thing. And one should not invent a "pure" English ancestry for Anne Boleyn in contrast to all the Kings and Queens preceding her. Despite the French ancestry, at least the later Plantagenets, certainly the Lancastrians and Yorks were English. Str1977 (talk) 11:45, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
- I did not say Anne Boleyn was pure English; indeed she had an Irish grandmother and was a descendant of Edward I and Marguerite of France. However, in contrast to the previous Queen consorts (excepting Matilda of Scotland), Anne had quite a bit of Anglo-Saxon ancestry as the Boleyn family, or more correctly, Bullen family was of old English, pre-Norman origin. Elizabeth I often boasted of her English blood--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 11:59, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
- "Pure" was my way of calling the strange point you raise here. Citing a Scottish Queen makes it even stranger. We should not discriminate along supposedly racial lines. Anne wasn't more English than her "husband" or all of the Lancastrian and Yorkist kings. Non-Norman ≠ English. The Anglo-Normans at least after some assimilation were just as English. And as I said, Queen consorts are quite often from foreign countries due to dynastic marriages. Str1977 (talk) 18:21, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
- Matilda of Scotland was the half Anglo-Saxon queen consort of Henry I of England. Normans and English weren't of different races, but were different ethnically and culturally from one another. Anne Boleyn obviously felt her Anglo-Saxon surname to have been a disadvantage, seeing as she normanised it to Boleyn from Bullen, and even had a bogus family tree drawn up.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 05:12, 20 April 2009 (UTC)
Reply (copied from talk page): Request for Source
Reply to HENRY V OF ENGLAND: Thank you for your message. I will begin with a little joke: Possibly the best thing about Henry V was that he spoke the French language fluently as did his courtieres, he married a French woman, and the House of Tudor that begins with her and the blood of Welshman Owen Tudor, starts a fine line of British monarchs with no English blood at all. Bravo! Smile! --- I begin with this little piece of « outrageous » history because each nation writes its own histories and has its own truths. - - - - I read three of the sources you posted earlier, but they are quite dubious and not reliable, I feel, because of their old date and authorship. The first, is from 1835 « The Chronological Historian » (actually, best of the three); 1867 « History of England for Young Students » (an English hagiography for little ones); and 1835 « Historical Pictures, England » (also for little ones). I could almost hear « God Save the Queen » playing in the background as I read the words. (smile!) I am sorry, but these are just not serious pieces of scholarship. These were written when English disdain for France was at its absolute peak, and Bonaparte was within living memory of all. Besides nationalism, most English historians had been heavily influenced by the plays of Shakespeare - and later Shaw - which are dramas inspired by history, rather than historical fact itself. - - - - On the other hand, the 2008 « The Contending Kingdoms » is more what I had in mind. (I did not read this earlier.) The author, Dr Richardson of the University of Surry, is a credible historian. (But, 52,25 pounds sterling for his slim 192 page book; Oh, my ! Thank you, Google Books !) The topic of the page where you directed me actually begins on page 25. The thesis of Dr Richardson hinges on the legitimacy of the Treaty of Troyes (which he feels is lawful, and most French authors do not); and his interpretation (objections, really) of the legitimacy of the (rightful) Dauphin (especially in this statement by Dr Richardson : « However, the tenure of this area not in French law a qualification or a prerequesite for kingship anymore than the holding of the principality of Wales, earldom of Chester, or duchy of Cornwall were pre-requesites for English kingship. », is mostly opinion, and does not hold-up under scrutiny. The fact is, every heir to the French crown after the annexation of Lyon did bear the title Dauphin. - - And, how Dr Richardson could compare the vast and wealthy Dauphiné region to little English Chester and impoverished Cornwall is another matter! Athough I need to corroborate this, I am fairly certain, both the population and wealth of Lyon and the Dauphiné exceeded that of England, itself.) - - Back to the Treaty of Troyes, the author's explanation of it and its ramifications are good on subsequent pages. The double-monarchy was, in theory, legitimized. But it was signed in weakness and fear by the French, who did not forget that they had seen Paris overrun by the Burgundians, were thankful of the tacit support of the English, which enabled the henchmen of Charles le Bien-Aimé to kill Jean sans Peur of Valois and Burgundy (« John the Fearless »), and no doubt felt that it was not beyond Henry V of England to kill Charles. I could write more, but this is not a good forum, and frankly, I know I cannot convince you because your ideas are so firmly set. Tomes have been written by wiser people than you and me who still disagree. - - - - - What I believe is important here is that Charles le Victorieux (« Charles VII ») was crowned in Rheims and continued to reign over two-thirds of France (central and south) from Bourges. The line of the House of Valois was unbroken. (He was, of course, succeeded by his brillant, machiavellian son, Louis le Prudent (« Louis XI »), among the greatest monarchs of French history.) - - - Lesser, but still important, the English suffered defeat after defeat as soon as nine years after the Treaty of Troyes, and were routed from Paris in 1436 and pushed back to Calais. England could not hold its land gains and did not have support of the French populace. - - - To end this, I stand by my original request: Please give me the name of a modern scholarly reference source that shows the « House of Lancaster » in the line of royal houses of France. The events surrounding the times of Henri VI are fascinating history, but to include him in a list of French monarch that is unsupported, in French or English, makes no sense here. Lists of French kings are common and appear in dozens of good texts. If you can identify one, I will concede. Charvex (talk) 05:25, 18 April 2009 (UTC)
- Well said, Charvex. The House of Lancaster is no more a French royal dynasty than the House of Simnel is an English one; despite the fact that Lambert Simnel was crowned King of England in Dublin.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 05:36, 18 April 2009 (UTC)
- That's not the same thing, though. Lambert Simnel was crowned as King of England in Dublin, which is not even a part of England. And when he (or his handlers, I should say) actually invaded England in an attempt to make good his claim, they were soundly defeated. Simnel was never king of anything. Henry VI, on the other hand, was crowned King of France in Paris in 1431, and possession of Paris is a pretty good sign that someone claiming to be a King of France might be able to back it up. The House of Valois eventually reclaimed Paris and a lot of other places, but for many years prior, Henry VI was recognized as King of France, and reigned as such, in an awfully big part of France. I think the solution arrived at is the correct one. List Henry and Charles VII as disputed Kings of France, until Henry's claim became moribund through military defeat in 1453. Jsc1973 (talk) 07:14, 23 May 2009 (UTC)
- Hello Charvex.You said that no modern day source supports Henry as a french monarch.This is wrong as my book from R.A Griffiths says that he ascended to the french throne and concilidated a double monarchy,and so does Anne Curry. Historions do in fact regognize Henry VI as a french monarch and my exclodopedia from SPONSERD by the times says both Henry and Charles accsended to the throne of france. May I just say that theses are secondary sources and not primary sources like the treaty of troyes. Henry and his heirs will inherit france and as said in the starting note Charles outlived Henry and so Henry VI became king of france. We cant contridict what historions state and if you dont mind me asking what happend in 1422? The answer is that both Henry and Charles inherited and we cant deny that fact. You also state that because french people didnt regognize him as king he is not listed dosent help on the situation. As I already said the contending kingdoms, The hundred years war by Anne Curry, The reign of King Henry VI By griffiths R.A, my eclodopedia all state he was in fact a french king. Also if you happen to look up an internet source about Henry VI like in Brittincia or Oxford it says he was a french soveriegn. Just like Charles the fat Henry VI remained unnumberd king of france and thats why he was not in the list and he was expelled from france so thats the reason he dosent feature along with charles the fat in regnal templates. No offence I did smile upon your accusation about him bieng unnsoperted as a french king. Because what happend n the latter as you say is in fact vital and I agree and may as well be part of the same reason why he is not featured as a french king. Ufortunately I canot include any cross paths with jeanne d arc and Henry VI as this is not important on the situation. I would like to say congrutualations to you since you are correct and I simply confess that I cannot give you a list that shows henry as a french soveriegn and so Bravo. I can only give you internet Text sources and books thus comes in why he is not mentioned in the list for the reasons we both mentioned. However this does not mean he wasnt in fact a french soveriegn. Remember as I said the same is with Charles the fat not bieng mentioned in the regnal templates but was still a french regal. Thus because a king is unnumberd that is in fact does not mean he wasnt a french regal. I THINK you missunderstanded what I meant with the prequise thing. Remeber in 1435 the congress of arreas, the lawyers of Boulagne said that because charles inherited the dauphine he is then legaly bound and not to the fact he was the heir. THen does the prequiste example come in to play, in other words you dont have to have possetion or inherit the dauphine in order to be heir so french heir does not need to be the nominal ruler of the dauphine ar take the title dauphine to be heir. As back to the list,I also added a note in order for it not to look wierd having henry as a french soveriegn without reason. Also I already said you were right about lancaster not bieng a french house due to the fact as I said before that 1 KING dosent make it a house but rather multiple kings of the same dynasty.Lancaster was never regognized as a french house but henry was a frenh king. I added Lancaster to represent of what house he came from unless of course I said hes the guy from England (just joking). To have Henry in the list without the note is completely ourageous but have him with the note is a ferfect way to clarify his existence and such is neccesary for a disputed king and is perfectly fine. There is also already a note beside him and remember his relatiins with predesccesor (treaty of troyes) that completely holds for security on the matter. If you agree on that then chime up the note but there is realy no need to take him out when haave the reason for his succestion. I hope we agree for the best. And also my LOL signs are for amusement and not affect any NPOV at all. I also read that you said the french never regognized the legitimacy all together about henry. As said in R.A Griffiths section in his book about the double monarchy,Bedford wasnt affraid to ask french(northen commeners) on there views. Bedford even asked for international oppinion. You do know the northen frenchmen were happy to have henry on the throne(1422-1432). The double monarchy was said to have inspired northen frenchmen and englishmen to make a new minted coin for france representing Henrys throne intoxicated with three golden lilies on the coin. It wasnt untill the mid 1430s that there was a rise in french inscurtions.
- Well said, Charvex. The House of Lancaster is no more a French royal dynasty than the House of Simnel is an English one; despite the fact that Lambert Simnel was crowned King of England in Dublin.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 05:36, 18 April 2009 (UTC)
Goodbye and thanks for the reply.--HENRY V OF ENGLAND (talk) 00:44, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
- Charvex, postings beginning with tasteless jokes (tasteless because of the actual quality of the rulers from the Tudor dynasty - but your comments about Louis XI indicate that you like thugs on thrones) do not help matters in any way.
- Whether HENRY's sources are dubious is really of no concern as long as we do not include the whole edifice built on them.
- The size of the population of Lyon and the Dauphiné (in itself and in comparison to England) are totally irrelevant, as a claim to the Kingdom of France is not based on controlling these two. So is expertise in later French royal legislation - actually the matter in dispute in the Hundred years war. We endorse neither the Plantagenet nor the Valois claim. That the latter underlies the following customs of the French monarchy is only natural - the victor does not write history but he does write law. And if you really know so much about French history, you should know that "Charles was crowned in Rheims" does not accurately describe what happened. The consecration of Charles also bears little direct relevance to the issue as thus far no one apart from HENRY has argued that Charles' reign should start in 1429. If this were correct, the Valois sucession would not be unbroken as there would be a 7 year gap.
- Jeanne, I agree that the House of Lancaster is no French dynasty. However, that is because it came from outside and did not survive the first person from its ranks to sit on the French throne. This can in no way be compared to Mr Simnel. There was no claimant called Simnel at all, he was impersonating a member of the House of York. So if anything he would be included in the House of York. Consider that we do not write the House of York out of history dispite the eventual victory of the Lancastrian-related Tudors.
- Str1977 (talk) 12:26, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
- I never argued Charles VII reign should begin in 1429.Here are more sources clarfying Henry as King of France.Charvex is making the mistake by thinking we are saying the House of Lancaster is a french house.That is nonscence.We are arguing the fact that Henry VI was a french monarch and he was a Historical French King from 1422-1453.I also have Cambridge and Oxford sources saying he was King of France.Henry VI in conclstion is a french King but Lancaster is not a French hOUSE.In fact nobody ever said Lancaster is a french house since as STR1977 put it "It didnt survive the First King whom came to that Throne".
Here are the refs:
- Here is a book confirming Henry VI dual blood from valois and Lancaster:Read.:
http://books.google.com/books?id=gFfaD4JdZhwC&pg=PA45&dq=Henry+VI+dual-monarchy
http://books.google.com/books?id=7SL1bVtfP08C&pg=PA93&dq=Henry+VI+dual-monarchy
http://books.google.com/books?id=_JDOVMDi8d4C&pg=PA601&dq=Henry+VI+dual-monarchy&lr=
http://books.google.com/books?id=Qzc8OeuSXFMC&pg=PA464&dq=Henry+VI+dual-monarchy&lr=
main book:
lol I think both Oxford and Cambridge agree Henry was King of France.--HENRY V OF ENGLAND (talk) 16:08, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
- The plantagement claim has to refer to the treaty.Not moot in its vague meaning.Charles should be changed also to Charles VII and Henrys corination should be mentioned in the note.--HENRY V OF ENGLAND (talk) 15:50, 13 May 2009 (UTC)
House of Valois-Lancaster??
I've reverted the change. HENRY, aren't ya pushing things too much, with this Henry VI, was King of France. GoodDay (talk) 14:31, 24 May 2009 (UTC)
- There was no historically-recognised dynasty called Valois-Lancaster.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 04:47, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
please read the refs.--HENRY V OF ENGLAND (talk) 15:21, 26 June 2009 (UTC)