Talk:List of Formula One World Constructors' Champions

Benetton

Benetton Team had still a UK license in 1995, when it won the Constructors' Championship. It had an Italian license just only since the next year, 1996. So, I have modified this detail, and the related statistics. MFG, sep 12 2006, 16:00

Engine nationality

I'm not convinced about some of the engine nationalities listed in the table. Whilst there is no question that Ford is an American company, I think many would consider the Ford-Cosworth DFV to be a British engine. Likewise I think many would consider the TAG-built-by-Porsche engine to be German. Is there an "official" (= FIA-recognised?) nationality for each engine supplier? Does the FIA even officially recognise the nationality of the engine supplier? Or does it just recognise the nationality of the "constructor" (=chassis+engine)? And does that nationality really mean anything anyway - I mean, could McLaren enter the championship using an Austrian license, if they chose to do so for some reason? DH85868993 07:27, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

I am the one who added the engine manufacturer flags to this table. I didn't really use any method, other than common knowledge, and chose the manufacturer country rather then the country where the engine was built. That's why I used the American flag for the Ford Motor Company, the Luxembourg flag for TAG, as it is based in the country.

Using flags of the countries in which engines are/were built, makes it a bit more difficult, I'm afraid, because, for example, Mercedes' engines are made in the UK, Honda's 80s' engines were built in Japan, IIRC, while today's engines are built in the UK, too.

About 'nationality' in general: teams' 'nationalities' differ, sometimes, from a) their country of origin (think Toleman-Benetton-Renault), b) ownership (think Renault factory in Britain and mother company in France), and c) licence (think Red Bull or Super Aguri based in UK and licenced by Austrian and Japanese federation respectively).

Lustigson 10:37, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

P.S.: I don't know who added 'the Netherlands' to the text. Presumably someone who doesn't know the Dutch from the Luxembourg flag.

Since the DFV was paid for by Ford (Great Britain) not Ford (USA) and was in fact built by Cosworth Engineering in Britain, I feel it should be classified as British. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.254.146.52 (talk) 09:51, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

Remove the flags, problem solved. These are corporate entities, nationality has little of no value to them. --Falcadore (talk) 02:48, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

Agreed. Remove the flags. Readro (talk) 08:58, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

Thirded. Only the constructor as a whole has an official nationality that is recognised by the FIA.--Midgrid(talk) 12:38, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

Fourthed (?). Per reasons given by Falcadore and Midgrid above. Any nationalities quoted anywhere must be those recognised by the sport's governing body for the specific context. If the governing body don't care about an engine's nationality, neither should we. --Redrose64 (talk) 12:49, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

Fifthed :) Only those entities with a nationality recognised by the FIA should have flags. That's constructors and drivers. Bretonbanquet (talk) 00:22, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

I've removed them (and also from Formula One engines). Thanks for your input. DH85868993 (talk) 01:59, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

I see they're back... FWIW while the DFV was conceived, designed and built in Britain, and the Ford involvement was down to Walter Hayes of Ford of Britain, Hayes had to go to The Mgt in the US to get the budget. Most sources state 100,000 GBP for the combined FVA and DFV projects but elsewhere a figure of 323,000 USD is quoted. On the other hand this could go on for ever - the TAG engine was designed by a German company at the behest of a British team founded by a New Zealander but paid for using Saudi money via a company based in Luxembourg... Mr Larrington (talk) 13:25, 7 October 2014 (UTC)

International Cup for Formula No 1 Constructors

There is evidence to suggest that the “Formula One World Constructors' Championship” was officially the “International Cup for Formula No 1 Constructors” during the first twenty years or so of its existence. Do we have access to relevant FIA Yearbooks or other FIA documentation to enable this to be checked? GTHO (talk) 02:05, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

Untitled

Let's see, Brabham, a team owned by Australians, a car designed by an Australian painted in Australian colours, raced to multiple constructors and drivers world championships by an Australian and powered by an engine designed and built in Australia, by an Australian somehow is an English team?

On the other hand a Team based in England, running a car designed in England by predominately British engineering staff with English team management and chief engineer and using a French engine is somehow Austrian?

Bollocks... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 168.186.250.9 (talk) 05:15, 20 August 2013 (UTC)

Don't really disagree, but them's the rules. Although I suppose I could point out that the Australian car referred to in your first para was designed and built in the UK, using mostly components from British companies. And that the engine block, if little else of the engine, was originally designed and built in the States, while some of its other internal components were British. :) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.109.66.147 (talk) 16:09, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

Page title

Should it not be “Constructors’ World Champions”? 137.108.145.39 (talk) 13:02, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

Contradiction

There's an explanation in the lead that different make/engine combinations are considered as different constructors for the championships. However this contradicts with the information given in the tables. For instance, the titles by the different Mclaren combinations(Honda, TAG, Mercedes,...) are counted as one total. The same goes for Williams (Honda, Renault,...) Surely either the information in the lead or the tables are wrong, no ? Tvx1 (talk) 23:51, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

The lead was wrong. While it's true that different chassis-engine combinations are counted separately in the championship, it's incorrect to identify a chassis-engine combination as a "constructor". Section 6.3 of the F1 Sporting Regulations says "A constructor is the person (including any corporate or unincorporated body) which designs the Listed Parts set out in Appendix 6. The make of an engine or chassis is the name attributed to it by its constructor." So, in the case of this year's McLaren-Mercedes team, the constructor is actually McLaren Racing Limited (which on Wikipedia we refer to by its WP:COMMONNAME of "McLaren"), the chassis make is "McLaren" and the engine make is "Mercedes". I hope this clarifies things. DH85868993 (talk) 10:22, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

It certainly does! Thanks for that. In fact, I even can't find the passage in the regulations that states that different engine-make combinations are counted separately. I would really like to know where that claim came from so as to know the correct ruling on that issue, though. In retrospect my edit was wrong nevertheless as it is equally stated in section 6.3. of the rules that if the make of the chassis is not the same as the make of the engine that the championship, if they win it, would be awarded to the former. So to translate to our case, even though Mclaren used different engines to win different championships, they were all awarders to Mclaren regardless whether they used Fords, TAGs, Hondas or Mercedeses to win them. Tvx1 (talk) 23:46, 10 November 2013 (UTC)

Indeed. Perhaps the rule about different chassis make-engine make combinations being counted separately no longer applies, or perhaps it does still apply, but they don't bother writing it in the rules because the likelihood of a constructor having more than engine make in a season is so small these days (as far as I'm aware, the last time it happened was in 1985, when Tyrrell used both Ford and Renault engines). Or maybe constructors are not even allowed to use more than one engine make in a season any more? (although I can't see that in the rules anywhere either). DH85868993 (talk) 03:08, 11 November 2013 (UTC)

Probably a dead conversation, but I believe the last time that a constructor appeared in two 'flavours' was 1991 when the Porsche V12 engine was so disastrously overweight and underpowered that Footwork swapped it for a Cossie DFR after six races or so. To my recollection, the separate counting of results occured in that season but it would be best to check against a contemporary source. Formula1.com doesn't show it that way (but this may not mean much), while other online sources can be found that show it (but these may be copies from the Wikipedia page). A couple of years later there were rumours that McLaren considered running the Chrysler (nee Lamborghini) V12 in their car towards the end of the 1993 season. The rule may well have lapsed now. It's hard to imagine it happening again, although the 2008 Brawn was designed for a Honda engine, not the Merc it eventually used. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.110.109.208 (talk) 16:02, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

You're right about 1991 (how could I have forgotten that debacle?) and you're also right about Formula1.com's reliability in this respect. All the other 1991 championship tables I've been able to find so far (Autocourse, Autosport's Season Review) only list constructors who scored points , so they're no help either. I'll keep looking. DH85868993 (talk) 11:23, 24 June 2014 (UTC)

Sidebar on right

Is that really necessary? StandNThrow (talk) 03:29, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

External links modified

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 2 external links on List of Formula One World Constructors' Champions. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20060113152720/http://www.chicanef1.dyndns.org/allconsts.pl to http://chicanef1.dyndns.org/allconsts.pl
• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20040926003114/http://www.f1-stats.de/en/results/makecs.php?y=1958 to http://www.f1-stats.de/en/results/makecs.php?y=1958

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 5 June 2024).

• If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
• If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 23:18, 17 May 2017 (UTC)

Pilots

While Senna was a starting driver in 1994, he did not score any points, contradicting footnote [1]. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.7.152.2 (talk) 19:40, 14 September 2018 (UTC)

By driver table

I question the inclusion of the "By driver" table in this article; I'm not sure how notable this information is (I don't recall ever seeing a table like this anywhere else), and it seems to be causing confusion; numerous times I've had to revert changes by editors who seem to think it's a list of *Drivers* championships. [1][2][3][4][5]. Thoughts? DH85868993 (talk) 00:03, 23 March 2019 (UTC)

Whilst it is nice to have the 'by driver' table on the article, I'm not sure about some of the inclusions. Should drivers really be counted if they didn't actually contribute any points towards the WCC, i.e. Ayrton Senna in 1994 or John Watson in 1985? --EchoFourFour (talk) 17:06, 23 March 2019 (UTC)

I support getting rid of it. It is confusing and I would argue not relevant. A7V2 (talk) 10:13, 25 March 2019 (UTC)

I also support getting rid of it, I don't consider it notable enough for inclusion. However I think that the only reason it is confusing is because there was no explanation as to what it meant. But I have just added an explanation to try to reduce confusion. SSSB (talk) 10:23, 25 March 2019 (UTC)

Removed. A constructors championship is awarded to the constructor of the cars. Not the racing team or the drivers, who built the cars. In the earliest days the championship several teams could contribute to the same constructor, sure it was rare but that is not the point. Rob Walker Racing Team never got any constructors points. They won nine races but their points went to Cooper or Lotus or Brabham. Stirling Moss once took third place in a race having driven both a Cooper and a Lotus in the same race but all the points went to Lotus because the car that finished the race in third place was a Lotus even if it was driver by two drivers. --Falcadore (talk) 20:43, 26 March 2019 (UTC)