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Talk:List of Fairy Tail chapters (volumes 31–45)

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Fictional history tense - Present vs. Past

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First off, I want to make it clear that I do understand the use of "historical present" on this site, as detailed in WP:TENSE: events as they unfold technically happen as the reader reads it, existing in a perpetual "now", and thus must be written in present tense unless under other circumstances. However, just as there is a "now", there is also a "past" and a "future", so whether something mentioned in the story is past, present, or future changes as the story progresses. That means lines like this are allowed:

"Natsu uses Dragon Slayer magic, which he learned from Igneel."

WP:INUNIVERSE also notes that past tense is best avoided in discussing any plot elements except backstory. Events such as the dragon war and Erza saving Kagura do not unfold as the reader reads it; the act of characters telling or remembering these stories does. Because they happen well before the story begins, these events take place in a perpetual "past", no matter where in the story the reader or viewer may read, so past tense may be permitted. On top of that, lines such as "Kagura remembers that Erza saved her as a child" just sound less awkward than "Kagura remembers that Erza saves her as a child", and is easier and quicker-to-the-point than writing workarounds such as "in a flashback, such and such happens" just to maintain a singular tense. I believe writing these events in past tense is a better way of presenting these sentences. User:Immblueversion (talk) 14:27, 24 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I see what you mean. So basically, we're supposed to write from the perspective of the reader, not the characters. Of course the wording would not make sense at times if sentences intended to be in past tense are simply switched to present tense. More needs to be done in those cases. It's difficult for some readers to think of the Extalia destruction and the Tower of Heaven liberation as things of the past, but that's what we have to do when writing about flashbacks. There is no present in the manga. There is also no past nor future. Also, there are no events "occurring at the moment". Right now, Fairy Tail is planning to fight against Tartaros? Wrong answer. They are that just as much as they are a group of fictional characters who in some story fight against Grimoire Heart. I realize this is a difficult concept. It makes writing a good Wikipedia article about a fictional subject much more difficult than one on some dedicated wiki, where past tense is typically used. We can describe things like "in a flashback" in manga chapters. For example, in List_of_One_Piece_chapters_(1–186), we describe flashbacks sequences in the present tense without going into too many detail. As with many other works of fiction, Fairy Tail makes the reader feel like they are in the present. But I think that writing past events in flashback chapters (such as the ones with Jellal, Simon, Lucy and Kagura) tends to cause some problems. Thoughts? Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 16:15, 24 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Follow-up

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This discussions seems to have been dormant for quite a while, so I am restarting this discussion. Also, as a reminder: We are supposed to write from the reader's perspective, not the characters. Some examples of what we should not write are:

  • Chagot foresaw the future.
  • Erza saved Kagura from enslavement.
  • Jellal betrayed Erza, forcing her to escape.
  • Flare is a former member of Raven Tail.

Even if Fairy Tail has a cohesive narrative structure, there can be some problems when writing tense and I find that very confusing. When writing the plot summary for a flashback episode, we would not do it in past tense. Likewise, when a user is reading a flashback, the flashback's present is considered to be the present for the reader.

My reasoning for using present tense with wordings like "in a flashback" and "back in the present" for the characters' past is that this story, like many other works of fiction, tries very hard to make the reader feel like they are experiencing the story with the characters, making it appear to them as if there was such a thing as a present as with the List of Fairy Tail characters article. But I don't think that it makes any sense when we are simply changing sentences from past tense to present tense as noted in my statement. However, there are some examples that I would like to present: "In a flashback, an eleven-year-old Erza saves Kagura from the cultists before she and Simon are taken to the Tower of Heaven" or "Atlas Flame forewarns them of E.N.D., a demon that has surpassed Igneel"? Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 11:01, 22 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

It depends on how big the flashbacks are in the volume. If it's going to span the entire volume (as with Nana volume 1), it can be framed with: "The volume details Erza's backstory seven years ago when she was enslaved in the Tower of Heaven." and then presented as present tense narrative: "Erza saves Kagura, she befriends Jellal. During the slave revolt, Jellal forces her to escape. She joins Fairy Tail, where she gets a new eye." If the flashback is brief enough to detail in a single chapter/sentence, it can be presented in past tense, like "Erza shares her story of when she was enslaved in the Tower of Heaven, when she befriended Jellal, and when she was betrayed by him later when he drove her away." -AngusWOOF (talk) 16:19, 22 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I see. While I agree with most of your ideas, some of the wording using "In a flashback" came from the List_of_One_Piece_chapters_(1–186) article. For example, we can use "Erza saves Kagura, causing them to experience a flashback to their childhood" and we may write them in the past tense. I know it may be difficult to think about the Tower of Heaven and Zeref's defeat as a thing of the past, but that's what we have to do on Wikipedia. We write things in the present tense for most of the time. Like I said, the concept of using present tense makes writing a good Wikipedia article about a fictional subject much more difficult than one on some dedicated wiki, where past tense is typically used. Let's think of it this way: in front of every sentence, we can write "In a flashback, A and B do etc., etc. Back in the present, A and B do etc., etc." I think we should label it as such when describing flashbacks. Does it make sense? Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 16:52, 22 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I just bring up the "in a flashback" because they use something like that in WP:CYF in the section right before WP:TENSE. -AngusWOOF (talk) 18:08, 22 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Yep, I like the "back in the present", a lot of recaps for television episodes use that format. As this is dealing with manga volumes, the labels can be applied. I'm thinking of how it's used in shows like Highlander, The Walking Dead or Lost, the last of which used flash-forwards really well. -AngusWOOF (talk) 18:16, 22 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
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