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Talk:List of Don Cossacks noble families

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To Kravtz. The description given to the list makes no sense. My suggestion is to stick to the list, without giving your own explanation. There were no "noble" families prior to the takeover of Free Don by the Russian Tsardom in 1708. This is well known from the documents. Moreover, prior to the occupation, there were no landownders in the Don area at all. The entire Voiska (the Host) was the landowner, and it divided its land amongst the Cossacks in parcels according to the number of people in the family. The status of nobility (dvoryanstvo) in Don was instituted by the Russian Empire to introduce division and inequality amongst Cossacks, and the right of permanent land ownership was instituted well after the Free Don stopped being free.

  • Specially for Anonymous User: That is great you start work on Wikipedia, but first you trying to edit something find sources to improve Your OWN vision. Specially in questions of history. Please READ WHAT IS WRITTEN THERE: This list include only the Family's that get Nobility on territories of Don Host in time of Russian Imperium. For questions about landowners on territories of free Don you must learn more about Don Cossack Family's that lived on the lands of Don Host before Moscow came. Good Luck! Kravtz (talk) 12:39, 18 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • To: Kravtz Ok. Prove with sources that there was a status of Dvoryanstvo in Don prior to 1708. Prove that "dvoryane" were the large landowners in Don prior to 1708. I wait for your sources. ViktorC (talk) 15:55, 18 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Helloa Victor, glad to meet You! READ WHAT IS WRITTEN THERE: This list include ONLY the Family's that get Nobility on territories of Don Host in time of Russian Imperium. For information You can see *Shumkov, A.A., Ryklis, I.G. List of noble families of the Don Cossacks in alphabetical order. of Russian Genealogy Society Publ House, Sankt-Peterburg. 2000 - that based on the Arhiv documents. Most of Don Cossacks Ataman Family's as a Efremovs was a landowners befor 1708. Kravtz (talk) 16:45, 18 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Zdorovo dnevali, Kravtz. I have read your source long time ago. However, it only lists titles as of 1841–1856, 1862–1864, 1866–1879, 1883–1898, 1901–1913 and 1916. It does not say anything about landownership or titles in the Don area prior to 1708. It does not mention Efremovs prior to 1708 either. From what we know from Nekrasovtsy Heritage, prior to 1708 the entire Host was the landowner; there was no private ownership of land. 18.170.0.166 (talk) 17:22, 18 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    • Dear friend Zdorovo dnevali! I’m glad that You has reading that source a long time ago and You interest in this theme. For better understood I can recommend You to work with some archive funds. The point is that this is the list of the Family’s that get Nobility of Russian Empire some years after report they put on local Nobile Community (Войсковое Дворянское Депутатское Собрание) and before time they was granted by official Senate Committee.
    • You can see for one really good example: it’s Krasnov Family – everybody knows that Family. So, Ivan Kuzmicz Krasnov (1753 - 1812) from stanica Bukanovskaya was a Major general, owned 140 peasants-malorosov and lands in Khopyor District (you can find this information in his officer list for year 1798 published by RGVIA (Russian State Archive of Military History, fond 489, part 1), his son Ivan Krasnov (1776-1824) was a colonel of Russian Empire and his grandson Ivan Ivanovich Krasnov (1799-1871) was a Lieutenant general of Russian Empire. Only the last one was granted by Nobility of Russian Empire, he personally owned about 500 peasants without his wife’s serfs. That is facts, or You think that three generations of the Family was owners of the lands and serfs on the territories of the Don Host without Nobility granted by Russian Cars just for fun? They just don’t need it.
    • About Nekrasovtsy Heritage, if You know about this You must know that he was of Starovers. He create his rules after he leave Don with part of his people. Host was the landowner before 1708 but there was Cossack Starshina, and as You know conflict so called Bulavin Rebellion was a conflict for money and power on the Free Lands of Don Host. No.1: Cossacks has money from the Salt mining - controlled by Bulavin and No.2: they provoked Malorossian and Russian peasants to escape to Don and work on the lands of the Host. It was a big differ between the Old Cossack Family's and surfs escaped on Don from Russia - that's the reason why when the Peter the Great deployed a group of bounty hunters under prince Yuri Dolgoruki to scout the Cossack regions for fugitive peasants they can find them so easily they was not of this Family's. You can find some books with revisions from that time with the names of the origin Don Cossacks, newcommers whas not in this books. But who ruled the Host? Starshina. Even during the Bulavin Rebellion you can see differ groups of Starshins who wanna more power (for example Efrem son Petrov, Maximov on the side of Moskovits). Kondraty Afanasyevich Bulavin was murdered by Starshins in Cherkassk at the and of the conflict. For that time it was a practically feudal system and its cannot be differ couse all around was a feudal states (Ottomon Empire and Persia). Even Russia was a feudal state in time of Peter the Great.
    • Best regards, Kravtz (talk) 22:52, 18 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • You are deeply mistaken, dear friend, seriously (or I simply don't understand what you are trying to say -- are you using a translation program?) Starshina are just a bunch of wealthier Cossacks with influence. There was no feudal system in the Don area prior to 1708, there were no serfs/slaves in the Don area prior to 1708. There was no nobility/dvoryanstvo in the Don area prior to 1708. Even up to 1917 Stanitsa's Hosts owned the land, and divided it up among Cossacks according to the number of sons in the family. They also rented out the excess land to "inogorodnie", i.e. Russians and Ukrainian peasants in the Don area. There was no feudal system in the Don area prior to 1708. That's exactly why Russian people were running to the Don area -- to be free from slavery aka serfdom, and not to get into another form of slavery. ViktorC (talk) 04:31, 19 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    • Victor, sorry maybe its some misunderstood. And of the reason that I really have no time - life is too fast, You know - so I never use translation prog. Anyway, Host owned lands, but as You said before Starshins was the group with influence that ruled Krug and Host in fact, that was a reason for most of the conflicts on Don between the Starshins supported by Cossacks and Moskovits. You can call it howyouwish but even Novgorod Republic has the same system - Starshins=Posadskie, belye ljudi=Cossacks and black ljudi=peasants ("inogorodnie" of the XIX-XX cent). If You know history of Don well You should know Esaulovsky bunt. And even Stepan Efremov grandson of Efrem son Petrov was trying to use Cossacks for protection of his own interests. People always run somewhere, but Im really not sure if for this peasants it was much better to live on Don as "inogorodnie" or to stay on Russian lands as serfs. If You wanna discuss this question more Im not sure its for wiki project, but sent me mail if You wish. Best regards, Kravtz (talk) 14:20, 19 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
      • Having influence is not the same as ruling the Krug or having the "dvornyazhsky" status. The Krug could fire and dispose off any ataman - this is well known. Cossacks have almost nothing to do with the Novgorod system. You are making stuff up. Some Novgorodians went to Don after the Moscow takeover of Novgorod, and there are records of Cossacks providing some military services to the Novgorod Republic, but it is a HUGE claim to say that Don Cossacks originated from Novgorodians. My advice is that you back up *every* sentence/assertion you write with a good source. — Preceding unsigned comment added by ViktorC (talk • contribs) 16:57, 19 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
        • Stuff up? Victor just STOP, I NEVER said that Don Cossacks originated from Novgorodians. All I wrote is that Novgorod with veche is a similar political system as a Cossacks with Krug. Be more objective. And now you just attacking me with some words you take from contents. It's looks like some kind of Demagogy from Your side. Kravtz (talk) 18:18, 19 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
          • That's how I understood your (very poor) English writing. Sorry for misunderstanding. Someone in the Russian Wiki has claimed that Don Cossacks originate from Russians of Novgorod. I assumed that it was you, given what your wrote above. If I am wrong, then I apologize. Any way, the header to the current article/list contains unsourced claims and is written in a very poor English. 173.76.25.133 (talk) 19:41, 19 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
          • You extremely disappointed me with Your style of conversation. Sorry for misunderstanding? First You attacked people for Your wrong assumption, and after You ask for excuse? If you find some mistakes You can correct Grammar, but if You just wanna criticize other people for how You understood and said that its of the poor English its not polite. Kravtz (talk) 21:14, 19 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
            • This conversation is over. Maybe you should learn English first before you post anything to Wikipedia. We have nothing to discuss. Good luck. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.76.25.133 (talk) 23:05, 19 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
            • I have my roots from Scotland to Finland, with some 25% of ancestors from Russia and I have three native Languages, so I absolutelly have no time for checking my English grammar during the fast conversation on Internet. BUT! I suppose that if You wanna work on WIKI projects with You Perfect Native English You should learn some basic rules about Civility. [1]. Kravtz (talk) 00:21, 20 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
              • Let me repeat and say that I wish you good luck in your Wikipedia activities. You seem like a good person, and I hope you will eventually understand the point I was trying to make. My very best wishes. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.76.25.133 (talk) 02:26, 20 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
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