Talk:List of Commonwealth records in swimming

GB/UK usage query

Is there a reason why in this line:

200 m butterfly 2:04.01 Jemma Lowe 11 May 2008 Middlesbrough, Great Britain

the location is given as Middlesbrough, Great Britain when all other UK locations are given as "United Kingdom"?

Thanks, DisillusionedBitterAndKnackered (talk) 00:58, 22 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for bringing this to attention. You are right - it should be United Kingdom as this is the proper name of the country in which the record was broken. The confusion results from the sporting representative name for swimming being "Great Britain". Yboy83 (talk) 18:22, 22 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Brilliant, many thanks for the clarification and for sorting it. Best wishes, DisillusionedBitterAndKnackered (talk) 13:01, 23 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Wrong: GB/UK is not relevant here

This article needs amending. It is not the UK/GB that competes in the Commonwealth Games but rather the commonwealth games federations of the three countries of Britain - Wales, Scotland and England - and the territory of Northern Ireland (see Commonwealth Games#List of nations/dependencies to compete). Their flags, under which their athletes compete, should be used here. The intro is also quite simply wrong: "Great Britain" could not and did not win any medals. I'm going to make a start on changing the list accordingly. Enaidmawr (talk) 22:39, 2 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

"It is not the UK/GB that competes in the Commonwealth Games" - FYI: this article has nothing to do with the Commonwealth Games - Games records are in a separate article: List of Commonwealth Games records in swimming. AFAIK these records are not tracked by the Commonwealth Games Federation, and could it therefore be considered that the nation eligible for inclusion on this list is therefore the sovereign state which is a member of the Commonwealth of Nations? I quite agree with your comments for the Games records list, but perhaps this article requires a little more research into the background behind the list before making the edits. Yboy83 (talk) 15:14, 3 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

BTW, Jemma Lowe is Welsh and Hannah Miley is Scottish - I have corrected these from your edits.

On another note, what do you suggest for relay teams made from members of different nations? i.e. Short course women's 4x200 m freestyle - Caitlin is Scottish, the others are English. Yboy83 (talk) 10:02, 4 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Great Britain\England

@Montell 74: I've moved the discussion here from user talk page, and I'll ping WP:SWIMMING to get the attention of other interested editors who might have thoughts on the matter.

Firstly, please familiarise yourself with WP:CONSENSUS and WP:BRD. Previously all bar Tancock and Peaty were listed as British when their records were set as British, not Home Nations, athletes. Regardless of whether you think that was "false", your edits to change that lack consensus and shouldn't be insisted upon by continual reverting without discussion (see BRD), and certainly shouldn't have been insisted upon after I'd already reverted citing lack of consensus.
Secondly, it's in some cases factually wrong. Your blindly hammering at the keys unthinkingly changing Great Britain to England ignores the fact that several of them aren't English (Alison Shephard is Scottish, Jemma Lowe is Welsh for example), so those teams are objectively not 'English' teams, nor English records.
Your point about the Commonwealth is irrelevant. These aren't Commonwealth Games records (where it would be factually correct), but records for the overall Commonwealth, of which the member nation is the United Kingdom, not the four constituent parts. There are lists of Commonwealth Games records in which it would be perfectly correct to list them as English, Scottish etc.
Regarding the athletics records list:
- a) WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS does not mean that factually incorrect statements on other articles require us to make mistakes on this article as well.
- b) That article isn't consistent, with usage of both Great Britain and individual nations, seemingly without rhyme or reason, throughout the article.

- Chrism would like to hear from you 11:16, 13 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Note also the previous discussion on this talk page which is about pretty much the exact same issue. - Chrism would like to hear from you 11:17, 13 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for info about Shephard and Lowe. So these times by mixed relay teams are in fact not eligible for commonwealth records.Montell 74 (talk) 11:28, 13 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Why? They're all British, and Britain is a member of the Commonwealth. Note that there's a difference between Commonwealth records (records set by citizens of Commonwealth member nations) and Commonwealth Games records. - Chrism would like to hear from you 11:34, 13 August 2016 (UTC

It will be difficult to find an official source, because there is no governmental body like Commonwealth Games Federation for the Games records. But it is obvious that f.e. a mixed team of European nations is not eligible to hold an European record, just an European best. So a time by a team of mixed nations of the commonwealth holds a commonwealth best.Montell 74 (talk) 12:10, 13 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

But it's not a mixed team. The United Kingdom is the sovereign state that is a member of the Commonwealth. That is DIFFERENT from the Commonwealth Games, where the individual home federations are members of the Commonwealth Games Federation. To quote the article heading: "Below is a list of current Commonwealth swimming records. This includes all countries that make up the Commonwealth of Nations." Now go to Member states of the Commonwealth of Nations and try and find Scotland for example. I'm really not sure how this is that difficult to understand. - Chrism would like to hear from you 12:20, 13 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I understand the problem and your position. In fact this article is kind of artificial and factitious because there is no govenmental body with rules these list is based on. Head of article is about 'state members' but creation of the article leaves marks of Commonwealth Games and its CGF rules. So its difficult to say what was and is the intention. But let me say that a creation just based on the marks of 53 member states is like to create an article of List of records of the European Union" without Swiss, Norwegian and (after exit) British records.. Its also comprehensible to take rules of the CGF as a basis, which includes all teams, states and dependent territories under their own flag. Montell 74 (talk) 13:01, 13 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The difference is that Commonwealth Records are recognised by both reliable sources (e.g. here) including news media and sports governing bodies. We don't need to determine what are acceptable attempts. We just need to cite what sources say. So if reliable news media state that a new Commonwealth record has been set, we can cite that. "Head of article is about 'state members' but creation of the article leaves marks of Commonwealth Games and its CGF rules. So its difficult to say what was and is the intention." I'd argue that this article exists alongside article including records specifically for the Commonwealth Games shows an intention for a wider brief, otherwise we'd only need the one article. - Chrism would like to hear from you 14:33, 13 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Montell 74: If you're going to arbitrarily redefine what the criteria for a Commonwealth record is for inclusion on this page, you should seek consensus to do so, especially when your previous edits on the subject have been challenged. - Chrism would like to hear from you 11:45, 13 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

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