Talk:List of Brazilian Jews

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Oscar Niemeyer: I have noted that there seem to be conflicting sources. It is of course quite possible that he is of mixed ancestry, or Jewish ancestry but converted. As always, WP:V requires us to cite what the sources say and not indulge in original research.--Brownlee 13:29, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Considering the source that says he's Catholic is from his own interview, and the source that says hes Jewish looks less than reliable. Why not contact the people who made that page and ask if its possible they are wrong? Or ask where they get their information? 72.153.53.100 21:59, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

I have contacted them. Why does it look less than reliable? Of course, he might be both Jewish and Catholic; for example, he may be of Jewish ancestry but converted.--Brownlee 10:41, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

What did they say? Where did they gather this information? As you well know, it's original research to assume he was both Jewish and Catholic. We can't weigh one source more highly than another. There is not list of Brazilian Catholics. Otherwise we could add him to both pending what the page-makers say. 72.144.147.245 21:06, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not censored; I am merely reporting what a source says. The original research is to say that because he was Catholic, he could not have been Jewish; plenty of people are Jewish by descent and Catholic by religion. I am not weighing one source more than another, but reporting both. If you feel that there is a need for a List of Brazilian Catholics, please start one.--Brownlee 22:44, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

We do not treat all sources of equal value unless there is a reason to. If you have contacted the website, why haven't you mentioned where they gathered their information? Perhaps their references may tell us if he, in fact, was a convert to Catholicism. Otherwise, it most definitely is original research to do assume so. 72.144.147.245 23:29, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

I e-mailed them but they have not replied. I am advised that where there are conflicting sources, the correct procedure is to cite both. Any attempt to reconcile these sources is original reaearch.--Brownlee 10:03, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Unreliable Source?

There is a simple way to prove that this page qualifies as an "unreliable source" and thus should not be given dominance to any other sources enough so to keep Niemeyer listed.

The following is all from WP:RS used in evaluating .

• Reliable sources tend to state explicitly who their sources are. Thus quotes with attribution are more reliable than "anonymous sources," particularly when anonymous sources are speaking towards their own interests.

• In general it is preferable to cite the original source for an assertion, as well as important confirming sources. It is generally preferable to cite reliable sources over less reliable sources when given a choice.

• A source is more reliable within its area of expertise than out of its area of expertise.

NOTE: The Jewishness of anyone including Oscar Niemeyer is not the speciality of Jewish Brazil - rather the Jewish culture and travel is, as can be explicitly seen on the sites main page. 72.144.172.206 03:35, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

It is original research to say that this source is unreliable. Where there is a conflict of sources, we cite both sources, which I have done.--Brownlee 11:19, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Are you suggesting we need to find a source that calls 'Jewish Brazil' an unreliable source? ;) You know I have a link to a forum that calls Oscar Niemeyer "gay." Despite WP:RS saying forums are not reliable source, since I cant find a source online that calls that forum an "unreliable soure," I better promptly add him to Category:LGBT people from Brazil, because otherwise we're censoring wikipedia! 72.144.183.128 04:55, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

No, I am saying that you call the source unreliable because of your subjective interpretation of the criteria, which is not the same as having evidence that it is unreliable; my interpretation, surely no less valid than yours, is that it is reliable.--Brownlee 12:13, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Nobody is giving dominance to one source over another. The evidence is quoted, and readers are free to make up their own minds. It would be wrong to censor Wikipedia by excluding evidence every time there is a doubt. As to the reliability of the site, it begs the question to assert that those behind it (who may well be Brazilian Jews) lack expertise in knowing which other Brazilians are Jewish.--20.138.246.89 14:28, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

So you're saying the average Irish citizen knows as much about Oscar Wilde as an Oscar Wilde biographer? No. Jewish Brazil is not an expert on Oscar Niemeyer or any other Brazilian. 72.144.183.128 04:55, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

That's begging the question: Is there any evidence that Jewish Brazil has no expertise regarding Jewish Brazilians? Maybe those behind the site are world authorities on Brazilian jewry; I am not saying they are, but it is OR to assume without evidence that they are not.--Brownlee 12:13, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Anyone can have personal expertise regarding Jewish Brazilians, including you or me, doesn't matter. Its still a fact that the website Jewish Brazil is not a site devoted to Oscar Niemeyer or even telling us trivia on who or whos not Jewish. But why dwell on that point anyway? It's one point amongst many. From WP:RS "Editors have to evaluate sources and decide which are the most reliable and authoritative." We are allowed to and should evaluate source. From WP:RS A self-published source is a published source that has not been subject to any form of independent fact-checking, or where no one stands between the writer and the act of publication. It includes personal websites, and books published by vanity presses. Anyone can create a website or pay to have a book published, and then claim to be an expert in a certain field. For that reason, self-published books, personal websites, and blogs are largely not acceptable as sources. Meaning, websites like Jinfo, unless they make citations, are not acceptable as sources. Most importantly, Reports by anonymous individuals, or those without a track record of publication to judge their reliability, do not warrant citation at all, until such time as it is clear that the report has gained cachet, in which case it can be noted as a POV. Jewish Brazil. Point is, anybody can get a domain name online and write anything they want (or are uninformed about) and then sign their name without making citations for their claims. Anyway, I would never trust a page where "connection" and "planned" are not spelled correctly as it shows nobody double checks it, but my opinion doesn't matter. I wouldn't use his interview as a source to add Category:Roman Catholics to his article because he doesn't explicitly state he is Catholic. He could be an atheist, Mormon whatever...we don't know. Furthermore there is no reason to add to his article that he is from a Catholic family, though this would be acceptable because he said it himself. 72.144.60.159 11:00, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

There is no objective evidence that this source fails WP:RS, only the subjective belief of one editor. By his arguments, most official British Government web sites would also fail WP:RS. Anon fails to explain why his beliefs are more valid than the opinions of other editors. However, I have added a second source.--Brownlee 12:16, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Jews or not Jews

I don't really know the reasons of the dispute, but I cannot understand how someone wants the wikipedia editor to give sources for each people on the list! So I have to prove that one by one who is and who is not a Jew? This an absurd...the best was putting the most famous Brazilian Rabbi ever (Henry Sobel) as "unsourced". This is simply ridiculous! I will leave on the unsourced section just those who never declared theirselves as Jews or I simply never heard of. --Dantadd 15:14, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes, you must prove one by one who is and who is not a Jew (WP:CITE) much in the same way you need to prove (or rather, reference) someone as an Italian American even if their surname is "Galvani." Please read WP:V. Regardless if it is "common knowledge" to you that some of these people are Brazilian Jews or that Henry Sobel is a rabbi, it is irrelevant. You, or any other wikipedia user, cannot be used as a source of information because it does not comply with WP:NOR. If it is so apparent that some of the people are Brazilian Jews to you, then you won't have any trouble finding references in books or website online that state that, as long as the source comply with WP:RS (no forums/blogs/self-published websites or self-published editorials, etc). Any list on wikipedia that is filled with red links, especially one this specific, needs to be referenced. Again, if all these people are Brazilian Jews there should be no problem proving it. The best sources are those that quote others (like a book) though as long as the site can be proven to be reliable, it would work. 72.144.60.159 10:16, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

I understand your point, but it's simply impossible to give sources to all tiny piece of information an encyclopedia provides. If your point of view should be applied to every single information on Wikipedia there would be more source information than information properly. So, in all articles or lists I have to give sources to the ethnicity, place and date of birth, complete name, profession and bla bla bla...?? It's insane and fallacious. --Dantadd 14:09, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

It's not. Typically one biographical source gives you all the information you need on date of birth, place of birth, complete name, profession, etc. That's why most articles simply have one External Reference. Whenever something dubious is put into an article, it is given a {{Fact}} tag. On wikipedia, we can not write our own biographies or descriptions without a reference backing us up. I could say Einstein had a pet dog that he loved, and even if I knew this from personal expierence it couldn't be added to the article without some other references backing me up. Furthermore, lists are the ones that need the most citations, especially lists with massive red links and lists that are extremely specific like this one. Anybody could add the name of a Brazilian here and claim they are Jewish. Even if it is "common knowledge" to you that some of these people are Jewish (and even Brazilian for that matter), most of us don't have that expertise. WP:NOR without a citation. Take a look at another equivalently specific list List of French Americans where everything is wonderfully cited. As you say, if its so obvious that these people are Brazilian Jews, why wouldn't there be a source stating it? I'll get you and other contributors to this list started. Remember references should comply with WP:RS - no blogs, forums, personal website, etc. 72.144.158.139 21:11, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

So, if I see Alberto Goldman, Brazilian politician, every week in the synagogue but I can't find a "reliable" website I cannot list him as a Jew??? Then, I'll have to take a picture of him praying on the Mourning Wall?? It's completely INSANE and fallacious! --Dantadd 12:39, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

Why wouldn't you be able to find a reliable website? Plus, its not just "websites." It's TV, newspapers, books, and just about anything thats traceable and reliable. How would you know Alberto Goldman (despite his typical Jewish surname, which we can't use as evidence) goes to a synagogue without reading it or hearing it somewhere reliable?

If you personally know Goldman or know he goes to a synagogue from a friend, unfortunately it counts as original research, which we can't use as evidence on wikipedia. I could say I know from personal experience that a famous actress is a hidden lesbian (silly example, I'm having fun with it) but unless its found somewhere else, I could never put her on a list of gay people. You know? 72.144.139.117 04:21, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Oscar Niemeyer's Religion

To put a seal on the apparent confusion here. Oscar Niemeyer is undoubtedly without religion. Being a communist, religiouslessness isn't uncommon. Need I say MORE? So there is NO reason to put him on a list of people who attain a religion. However, Judaism apparently is seen as a race too, or something like that. The best place to find out if Niemeyer is racially would be his own memoirs. I have copied a segment of the book:

"The Curves of Time: The Memoirs of Oscar Niemeyer"

Page 6 (Bottom of Page)

"I shall start by remembering my origins. My name ought to be Oscar Ribeiro Soares or Oscar Ribeiro de Almeida de Niemeyer Soares, but the foreign name prevailed and I became known as Oscar Niemeyer. My ethnic roots are diverse, something I find particularly gratifying. Ribeiro and Soares are Portuguese names, ALmeida is Arabic, and Niemyer is German. Not to mention the blacks or Indians who, unknown to us, may also have been part of our family."

If he did have Jewish ethnic ancestry, certainly he would mention it here. He bothers to mention the possibility of African heritage but not Jewish? The question has come up that perhaps Niemeyer's family was religiously Jewish. This can be debunked here:

Page 8 (Middle of Page)

"This arbitrary attitude that my grandmother undoubtedly brought with her from her farm in Marica, and which by no means prevented her from being a top-notch housewife, manifested itself now and then in her outbursts: "Take that cloth off your head. Colored folk don't wear suck things." Even though I was only six or seven years old, the way she talked to the housemaid particularly upset me. My grandmother was religious, as was our whole family. Mass was held regularly at our house, with family members and our neighbors in attendance. On those days, she opened one of the five windows in the sitting room-its windowsill served as oratory-and recited the "Hail Mary" out loud. At times, when she was in one of her particularly insolent moods, my grandfather would say very gently, "Heave help us, that's on bossy woman." "

Now the question arises of why so many places DO call Niemeyer "Jewish." Well, it could be another case for the 'bad things about wikipedia' book. About a year ago somebody placed "Jewish Brazilian" on the header of the Oscar Niemeyer wiki article. This information has since spread to wiki mirrors and so any website that uses wiki mirrors as a source, will call Niemeyer "Jewish Brazilian" especially user-contributed and/or "game" websites like Derby Dead Pool linked by his name on this list.

The origin of this myth is probably not going to be obvious. Perhaps it began an assumptive journalist or perhaps even it began with last years wiki changes and then spread to the most easily attainable sources on Niemeyer, those on the internet.

Point is, it's probably safe to remove Niemeyer from this list, as if he doesn't mention Jewish background when talking about his own racial ancestry, we can only assume there is none. Online encyclopedias don't know more about Niemeyer than he himself does. - 69.212.

This is a clear violation of WP:NOR. Firstly, "Oscar Niemeyer is undoubtedly without religion." So what? Judaism is an ethnic category as well as a religious one, so to say that someone is not jewish because they are a communist or an atheist is original research. Secondly, "If he did have Jewish ethnic ancestry, certainly he would mention it here." Why? His German ancestors could have been German Jews. And to assume that the web sites who call him Jewish all copy from Wikipedia is again original research. Finally, we need a proper reference for the source of the above quotes.--Brownlee 14:16, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Hello. There are two defining characteristics of a Jew. To help alleviate the mess that arises here, I made allusions to a racially Jewish Niemeyer as well as a religiously Jewish Niemeyer. If he was either or, he could be considered a Jew. I began by debunking the assumption that he was religiously Jewish. Immediately afterwards, as anyone can check in the talk above, I said Jew is also a race, and that the best place to find out if he was racially Jewish is from....well himself. The following books are biographies of Oscar Niemeyer (though mostly these are about his work), the last is the above memoirs:

Oscar Niemeyer by Matthieu Salvaing Oscar Niemeyer by Stamo Papadaki Oscar Niemeyer: A Legend of Modernism by P.Andreas The Curves of Time: The Memoirs of Oscar Niemeyer by Oscar Niemeyer

All these books, easily available at any large library, fail to make any mention of Oscar Niemeyer being of Jewish dsecent, though most say he was of Portuguese and distant German descent. If his German ancestors were Jewish, why wouldn't he mention it or why wouldn't anyone in these publications mention it? He mentions African ancestors but not Jewish? If you are under the assumption that "Niemeyer" is a Jewish surname, it's not. "Niemeyer" is Northern German, typically exclusively Northern German in origin and also one of the most common surnames in that region. Otherwise, why would anyone assume they were Jewish?

The Derby Dead Pool link is user-contributed much like www.nndb.com. The term "Jewish Brazilian architect" can only be found in three places: [1]. Two are wiki mirrors mirroring the old changes made on wikipedia. One is Derby Dead Pool. Somehow I have my doubts of the accuracy of Derby Dead Pool over three Niemeyer biographies and a collection of memoirs which fail to make any mention of seemingly "significant" Jewish ancestry but yet make deep investigations into Niemeyer's background. The other link is a writing by an individual. Unqualified opinions are usually ignored, just like any blog and webpage is, by any good editors.

I implore everyone who's working on this page to reconsider the inclusion of Oscar Niemeyer. This is novel information and is spreading fast because of wikipedia's popularity on the internet. Faulty information being spread will add another reason why wikipedia is such a controversial place! ~69.212

"citation needed"?

Honestly, some of the "citation needed" tags on in this article are a joke. Who in Brazil doesn't know that Daniel Azulay is Jewish? Are people going to ask for citation for the claims that Albert Einstein was Jewish as well? Or perhaps do people need citations for the claims that Winston Churchill was Brittish? --Pinnecco (talk) 16:45, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Upmerging to List of Latin American Jews

Anyone who opposes this. Speak here and explain why. Bulldog123 19:57, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

There is no consensus for such a merge; the many similar merges engaged in today without any prior discussion have been disruptive, as there was no rationale provided nor consensus generated for such. Badagnani (talk) 20:14, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

It's been two days. No responses here except for you. I'm upmerging. Bulldog123 22:49, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

There is no consensus for such a merge. Badagnani (talk) 07:07, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

No rationale has been given for a merge so it is entirely moot. Occuli (talk) 00:34, 16 June 2009 (UTC)