Talk:Lieserl Einstein

Pronunciation

How do you pronounce "Lieserl?" 68.63.215.207 (talk) 17:20, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Seems to be a Germanic name, so it would be "LEE-surl" with slight emphasis on the first syllable. Its closest English equivalent is the popular name Lisa (pronounced "LEE-sa" for comparison)...Engr105th (talk) 22:59, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Some minor fixes

Im making some minor fixes to the article, just as a sort of clean-up (ex: words capitalized in the middle of sentences, that sort of thing)....Also, changing Hans Albert's occupation. He was a Hydraulic Engineer (as in hydrology), not a hydro-electric engineer...Engr105th (talk) 23:04, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Pronunciation (Re)

Lieserl is actually pronounced "LEE-SER-IL" --The Republic of Ben 10 (talk) 17:20, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

That would make more more sence than the first one, i should know; I AM German in ancestry. Altenhofen (talk) 03:24, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Certificate

If Lieserl had died in 1903, there would probably be a death certificate. This is never mentioned.

But if she was adopted, there would be a cerficate too, which is also never mentioned, I just like the idea of her mysteriously vanishing off the face of the earth. It's a cool effect. 74.120.203.111 (talk) 21:54, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

liesrls name

how come, you are calling the child "Liesrl Einstein"? her mother was not married to einstein at the time of her birth, and it is near to impossible, that einstein ever gave her his name. and what's wrong with the name of her mother, Marić? --Ajnem (talk) 10:19, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

Ajnem is correct. The child was born out of wedlock, and was no longer with Mileva when she married Einstein, so her family name should be Marić. Esterson (talk) 14:42, 4 February 2011 (UTC)

Grand-daughter

A "grand-daughter" of Albert Einstein is mentioned. She might be Evelyn, an adopted child. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.194.34.71 (talk) 12:34, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

"lieserl"

did some editing and put "lieserl" in quotation marks, because "lieserl" is not a name, that the child would have been given, but a familiar form, her parents used. also removed the serbian ciryllic, which does not seem appropriate as long as it remains under the lemma "lieserl einstein", and the categories ashkenazy and hungarian jews, because the child was probably baptised, and even if not, not jewish. i should also like to suggest, that the article be moved to "Lieserl Einstein-Marić". --Ajnem (talk) 17:18, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

Citation needed:

Currently the following paragraph is included in the "notes" setion:

• A new theory - called 'The Fourth Theory' - on Lieserl's fate has been put forward for the first time by British researcher Tim Symonds in late 2009. He postulates Lieserl was indeed born with a serious mental handicap and by the time she was 21 months of age Albert Einstein and Milos Maric decided she should be killed as an act of mercy ('mercy-killing'). Although in the Austro-Hungarian Empire infanticide was against the Law, it was widely supported in the case of handicapped infants, with at most a suspended sentence

This paragraph had been questioned at WP:NORN#Einstein fourth theory?. Apparently the editor questioning it looked for sources and did not find anything that comes close to being reliable (all he found were some reviews by someone named Symonds on Powell's [1] and Amazon [2], neither of which are reliable sources). This "Fourth Theory" definitely needs a citation to a reliable source. I will give people two weeks to provide one (or at least indicate that one exists). Blueboar (talk) 13:04, 29 November 2009 (UTC)

I see someone else removed it... this is fine with me. Blueboar (talk) 14:37, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

I have seen Symonds' detailed contentions, and his evidence-free conjecture is (at best) entirely circumstantial. There is not one single piece of genuine evidence to support the suggestion that Albert Einstein and Miloš Marić (Mileva's father) agreed to commit infanticide. Esterson (talk) 14:57, 4 February 2011 (UTC)

Notable?

Is Lieserl Einstein really notable enough for her own article? We are talking about a child that lived for about a year after all. I think this is a case of "Inherited notability" (ie any notablility she has is based on who her parents were)... and Notability is not inherited. Blueboar (talk) 15:02, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

Good point. We should probably just merge any relevant content into Albert Einstein. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 15:45, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

That would be fine with me. Blueboar (talk) 16:35, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

I believe the daughter known as 'Lieserl' does deserve her own entry in Wikipedia for the following reason: she represents the greatest unsolved mystery surrounding Einstein's extraordinary life, and no-one, absolutely no-one, now living has any idea at all what happened to her. She probably died aged around 21 months, in the Autumn of 1903. No-one can explain why there is no documentation on her whatsoever - yet she was born in one of the most bureaucratic Empires (Austro-Hungarian) which ever existed. Could it be true Lieserl was born severely handicapped from a very difficult birth? Was such a handicap caused by lack of oxygen due to the mother's deformed hip, making the birth a dangerous matter for mother and daughter alike? Until something turns up and the mystery is resolved, I believe Lieserl deserves her own place in Wikipedia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.149.45.221 (talk) 21:14, 25 December 2009 (UTC)

Posing such questions as "could it be true that...?" is not what Wikipeida is for. We don't speculate, we report on what is actually known. And if not enough is known, then there is not enough to have an article. Blueboar (talk) 21:52, 25 December 2009 (UTC)

We don't speculate, we report on what is actually known. Rubbish. Speculation can and should be reported. --Michael C. Price ^talk 22:33, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

So, should we have an article on the speculation that the World Trade Center was destroyed by an alien laser beam? No. We only have articles on notable speculation that has reliable sources to show it has been legitimately researched. At best, Leiserl deserves a brief mention in her father's article. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 23:07, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, the speculation has to be notable. So? It's still speculation. BTW, Leiserl has a book devoted to her, so she passes the notability and RS test. --Michael C. Price ^talk 23:18, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

Does she? That would might change things. Why isn't that book used to support this article? Blueboar (talk) 00:57, 1 January 2010 (UTC)

From the article:

• Michele Zackheim, Einstein's Daughter: the Search for Lieserl, Riverhead 1999, ISBN 1-57322-127-9.

--Michael C. Price ^talk 08:03, 1 January 2010 (UTC)

One book. That's it? That really doesn't seem to satisfy WP:N. Especially since the reviews I've found are pretty harsh on it. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 15:56, 1 January 2010 (UTC)

== Merging into Albert Einstein =)

OK... if we are going to merge relevant material into the Albert Einstein article... what should be merged? Blueboar (talk) 14:03, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

• Albert Einstein is already 112 kilobytes long, which is too long for a Wikipedia article (see Wikipedia:Article size). It would make sense however to merge this article into Einstein family. Probable the articles on her grandparents, aunt, brothers, and nephew should be merged there as well. —teb728 t c 08:38, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

Good idea... but is there anything in this article that could go into the main Albert Einstein article? Even a sentence or two? Blueboar (talk) 17:26, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

There is a mention. I like the idea of merging to Einstein family. Airplaneman ✈ 22:10, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

There is so little in this article that is should be easy to move. There is no way that this person is "notable" and having been barely mentioned in any manner during her life or that of her father, almost all the information and "speculation" in this article is useless. -- Komowkwa (talk) 12:04, 18 April 2010 (UTC)

It can be merged in Einstien Family. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tanmay24 (talk • contribs) 09:57, 9 June 2010 (UTC)

Merge to Einstein family. As to the side-discussion about speculations being included in wikipedia : Yes, in all controversies, there are speculative issues, e.g. the "many-assassins theory" in the JFK assassination. However, the notability criterion is paramount. Wikipedia does not necessarily include each and every speculation under the sun but only those that are significantly notable. Which is why Wikipedia rightfully dedicates a long section to the various JFK assassination theories. Lieserl Einstein in herself did not lead a notable life. However, her existence is still a matter of controversy and speculation - therefore, it merits extended mention in the related entry. -The Gnome (talk) 12:41, 3 January 2011 (UTC)

I agree with those who say that there should not be a separate Wikipedia page for Lieserl. And, incidentally, Ajnem (above) is correct in saying that she could not have had the surname "Einstein", as she was born out of wedlock and was no longer with Mileva when the couple married. Her name should therefore be given as Lieserl Marić.

There is no need for any clumsy "merger" with the Albert Einstein Wikipedia page, as she gets sufficient mention there already. Esterson (talk) 14:38, 4 February 2011 (UTC)

I think the best solution is to merge most (maybe half, after you tone down the investigative journalism style of it) of this into the Einstein family article. also, we should put a "main article:Einstein family" at the Marriages and children section of AE. Her marginal notability is totally dependent on einstein, and having 1 book aboout her doesnt mean she needs an article. This addition to the einstein family article may appear to give undue weight to her, but most of the more notable family members have their own articles, and thats a common enough "problem" here, where a less notable subject gets more info in a larger article, while more notable subjects have a line or two with a "main article:" added. if consensus is to keep the article, i would seriously rename it " "Lieserl" (Einstein daughter) " Mercurywoodrose (talk) 16:30, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

merged + redirected

I merged this into Einstein family, see talk page there for reasons. Herostratus (talk) 15:42, 28 April 2011 (UTC)