Talk:Liberty of the Savoy

London Low‑importance

	London portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject London, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of London on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.LondonWikipedia:WikiProject LondonTemplate:WikiProject LondonLondon-related articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Middle Ages Low‑importance

	Middle Ages portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Middle Ages, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of the Middle Ages on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Middle AgesWikipedia:WikiProject Middle AgesTemplate:WikiProject Middle AgesMiddle Ages articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Duchy of Lancaster

I wonder if the Strand link in {{Duchy of Lancaster}} should really be coming here? Or does the duchy own property outside the former liberty along the Strand? MRSC (talk) 05:55, 28 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I believe there was another liberty in the area known as "Duchy of Lancaster" or the "Duchy Liberty" distinct from the Precinct of the Savoy. This also seems to have been known as "The Liberty of the Duchy of Lancaster at the Strand". It seems to have comprised parts of the parishes of St Mary le Strand and St Clement Danes.

Joseph Fletcher in The Metropolis; its Boundaries, Extent, and Divisions for Local Government in the Journal of the Statistical Society of London, Vol. 7, No. 2. June 1844 describes the two parishes as being "as well as within the Duchy Liberty as in the Liberty of Westminster" There was a court for the duchy held at Somerset House.

A footnote here [1] states "The population of the Duchy of Lancaster Liberty is entirely shown in St. Mary le Strand Parish 1801–1831. From 1841–1901 the population is rightly divided among St. Mary le Strand, St. Clement Danes, and the Precinct of the Savoy. Its area is also divided between these. The Liberty contained 410 persons in 1831."

According to [2] "Stow states that the Liberty of the Duchy of Lancaster extended from Temple Bar to the east side of Cecil Street, near what is now the Adelphi, and from the stocks just outside Temple Bar to "a stone cross, now headless," over against the Maypole in the Strand, and along by Exeter Change and Burleigh Street."

This [3] appears to the "Stow" he was referring to, which contains some interestings bits about the governance of the Liberty.Lozleader (talk) 20:09, 28 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Looking at this [4] where it defines the parishes in the Metropolitan Police District, seems to indicate that the parishes of St Clement Danes and St Mary le Strand were partly in the Liberty of Westminster and partly in the Duchy Liberty. The Precinct of the Savoy, although adjoining them was in the Holborn Division.Lozleader (talk) 20:13, 28 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. That answers a few questions (and throws up a few more). I guess the Duchy liberty was abolished sometime up to 1889 and included in St Mary le Strand (parish), although it is unclear what happened to the part in St Clement Danes (parish). MRSC (talk) 20:44, 28 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Found this: The liberty of the Duchy of Lancaster in Middlesex comprised the Savoy area of Westminster and the parishes of Edmonton and Enfield. [5] Judging from "Savoy area" I think the Liberty of the Duchy of Lancaster was a collection of areas, rather than a parish-type entity in its own right. It appears to have included the St Clement Danes (parish) detached part, the Precinct of the Savoy and St Mary le Strand (parish) i.e. a string of three small river-fronting areas. It also seems likely it was entirely within the Liberty of Westminster. So when it was abolished, it didn't need to be absorbed into anything. Just need to find an explicit source now. MRSC (talk) 07:46, 1 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Court Leet and beating the bounds

I was looking through the Times Digital Archive and interestingly enough the Court Leet of the Liberty seems to have survived until at least 1939, long after the area was included in the metropolitan borough. according to a couple of sources, the liberty was divided into 4 wards, with 2 burgesses for each ward, plus a steward (or high steward) at this stage Lord Askwith. The court was completed by a jury of 16 that was elected annually.

Apparently the ceremony of beating the bounds involved the choristers of Savoy Chapel touching the various boundary marks. The marks were a "lion rampant surmounted by a crown and encircled by the words DUCHY OF LANCASTER". There were about 14 marks in various places near the law courts and The Temples and the Embankment and one under Waterloo Bridge (which was missing in 1939 as the bridge was being reconstructed). It would be interesting to have a look for the boundary marks and get a pic. Lozleader (talk) 14:33, 1 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Interesting. I know from experience of walking through that area, it is littered with parish boundary markers. I am there from time to time for the library, will go with a camera next time. MRSC (talk) 15:00, 1 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Is this one? Importing the boundary file into Google maps it is in the right place. MRSC (talk) 16:41, 22 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Those are the arms of the Duchy all right. It must be (fairly) modern as the crown is the current (1953 on) model Lozleader (talk) 20:59, 22 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Past tense

The article talks about the liberty in past tense, but no information is given as to why it is so. There are details of when particular institutions of the Duchy were abolished, but based on the information in the article it would seem the subject of the article still exists, so why the past tense? The infobox only gives a date of creation, not of demise. --62.189.73.197 (talk) 15:33, 6 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Governance

Parts (perhaps most) of the Liberty would have been in the Strand parliamentary constituency during its lifetime. Beowulf (talk) 13:20, 28 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The end of the Liberty

As the Precinct of the Savoy was abolished in 1922, was the Liberty abolished at the same time? Jackiespeel (talk) 19:32, 24 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Link to Patrick O'Brien article is not good

The link to the Patrick O'Brien article does not work as indicated. It just brings up some textbook site. 2404:C806:1559:1100:A95F:74D2:3493:930B m.e. (talk) 05:17, 4 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]