Talk:Li He

Li He has been listed as one of the Language and literature good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.
Review: March 4, 2018. (Reviewed version).

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Range of dates

Is a range required when accompanied by "circa"? Instead of (c. 790–791 – c. 816–817), I'd use either (790–791 – 816–817) or (c. 791 – c. 817). A small suggestion, not a big deal, but that's the only edit I'd make to the parenthetical information in the first sentence. :-) Jack N. Stock (talk) 23:28, 4 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I can't say with certainty in this case, but I often run into the case with Japanese years that we're given a specific year on the Japanese calendar that doesn't sync up with the Western calendar. The year may begin in 790 and end in 791, but without a more specific date we can't say which. In such cases c. 790–791 is better than c. 790 or c. 791. Something like (790–791 – 816–817) makes for confusing reading. Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 05:24, 5 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Jacknstock: Both ranges are approximations (we don't have exact dates one way or the other), and if you look at footnotes [c], [e] and [f] there is this slight variation between the sources. The sentence in the body immediately following [c] is also ... well, honestly, I have half a mind to add it to footnote [c] and remove it from the body, and attribute it to Frodsham, but unfortunately I have not read Frodsham so for all I know he directly attributes it to someone else. Anyway, if he was born in the Year of the Horse, that would put his birth in early 790 to early 791. This slight variation of one year, when no month is given, is probably just a result of modern sources using the Gregorian calendar which was not in use in China at the time (or for about 1,000 years after), but I'm a bit pedantic about this stuff and have not actually found a source that directly states as much as of yet. I actually wouldn't mind, though, just removing the c.s from the lead for readability purposes, though at present CT's last point is a valid one. Speaking of which...

@Curly Turkey: What would you think of (790/791 – 816/817)?

Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 10:20, 5 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

MOS:DATE says that the slash is used for continuguous dates (a fiscal year, or an event that happened overnight), so I'd say no. You might want to ask at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers. Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 22:56, 5 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Examples of poems moved from article space as incomplete

天上謠 Traditional^[1]	Tiānshàng Yáo Pinyin^[2]	"In Heaven" English translation
天河夜轉漂回星，銀浦流雲學水聲。玉宮桂樹花未落，仙妾采香垂佩纓。秦妃捲簾北窗曉，窗前植桐青鳳小。王子吹笙鵝管長，呼龍耕煙種瑤草。粉霞紅綬藕絲裙，青洲步拾蘭苕春。東指羲和能走馬，海塵新生石山下。	tiān hé yè zhuǎn piào huí xīng, yín pǔ liú yún xué shuǐ shēng. yù gōng guì shù huā wèi luò, xiān qiè cǎi xiāng chuí pèi yīng. qín fēi juǎn lián běi chuāng xiǎo, chuāng qián zhí tóng qīng fèng xiǎo. wáng zǐ chuī shēng é guǎn cháng, hū lóng gēng yān zhòng yáo cǎo. fěn xiá hóng shòu ǒu sī qún, qīng zhōu bù shí lán tiáo chūn. dōng zhǐ xī hé néng zǒu mǎ, hǎi chén xīn shēng shí shān xià.

秋來 Traditional^[3]	Qiū Lái Pinyin	"Autumn Arrives" English translation
桐風驚心壯士苦，衰燈絡緯啼寒素。誰看青簡一編書，不遣花蟲粉空蠹。思牽今夜腸應直，雨冷香魂吊書客。秋墳鬼唱鮑家詩，恨血千年土中碧。	tóng fēng jīng xīn zhuàng shì kǔ, shuāi dēng luò wěi tí hán sù. shuí kàn qīng jiǎn yī biān shū, bù qiǎn huā chóng fěn kōng dù. sī qiān jīn yè cháng yīng zhí, yǔ lěng xiāng hún diào shū kè. qiū fén guǐ chàng bào jiā shī, hèn xuè qiān nián tǔ zhōng bì.	The young lad, startled to his core by the paulownia wind,^[a] is in pain; his lamp failing him, he can hear the crickets chirping their cold, lonely song.^[b]

神弦曲 Traditional^[5]	Shén Xián Qū Pinyin	"Tune for Unearthly Strings" English translation
西山日沒東山昏，旋風吹馬馬踏雲。畫弦素管聲淺繁，花裙綷縩步秋塵。桂葉刷風桂墜子，青狸哭血寒狐死。古壁彩虯金帖尾，雨工騎入秋潭水。百年老鴞成木魅，笑聲碧火巢中起。	xī shān rì méi dōng shān hūn, xuán fēng chuī mǎ mǎ tà yún. huà xián sù guǎn shēng qiǎn fán, huā qún sī cài bù qiū chén. guì yè shuā fēng guì zhuì zǐ, qīng lí kū xuè hán hú sǐ. gǔ bì cǎi qiú jīn tiē wěi, yǔ gōng qí rù qiū tán shuǐ. bǎi nián lǎo xiāo chéng mù mèi, xiào shēng bì huǒ cháo zhōng qǐ.	Behind the western mountain the sun sets, and the eastern mountain grows dark; as the whirlwind blows the horses on, the horses charge and trample the clouds. The beautiful lute and unadorned flute make music light and welcoming; in autumn the priestess's pretty garment rustles, stirs up clouds of sand.

These should probably be completed here (preferably via collaboration with someone with more knowledge of Classical Chinese than me) before being re-added to the article.

Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 23:34, 10 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

References

^ "Chinese Text Project entry 天上謠". Chinese Text Project. Retrieved 2017-02-21.
^ The Chinese, Japanese, Vietnamese, and Mongolian Language Site Allusions to Classical Chinese Poetry in Pink Floyd (Li He / Li Ho).
^ "Chinese Text Project entry '秋來'". Chinese Text Project. Retrieved 2017-03-12.
^ ^a ^b Arai 1959, p. 60.
^ "Chinese Text Project entry '神弦曲'". Chinese Text Project. Retrieved 2017-03-27.

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GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Li He/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Iazyges (talk · contribs) 16:35, 20 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Will start soon. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 16:35, 20 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Criteria

GA Criteria

GA Criteria:

1
1.a Y

1.b Y
2
2.a Y

2.b Y

2.c Y

2.d Y
3
3.a Y

3.b Y
4
4.a Y
5
5.a Y
6
6.a Y

6.b Y

No DAB links Y
No Dead links Y
Images appropriately licensed Y
Copyright issues: When Li was 20, he attempted to take the Imperial Examination, but was forbidden from doing so because of a naming taboo: the first character (晉 jin) of his father's given name (晉肅 Jinsu) was a homonym of the first character (進) of Jinshi (進士), the name of the degree that would have been conferred on him had he passed. Ueki et al. (1999) speculate that this was a pretext devised by rivals, who were jealous of his poetic skill, to prevent him from sitting the examination. Han Yu, who admired his poetry, wrote Hui Bian (諱弁) to encourage him to take the exam, but Li was ultimately unsuccessful. He served only three years, in the low-ranking office of Fenglilang (奉禮郎) before returning to his hometown. appears to be directly copied from here. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 14:37, 1 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Iazyges: First off, thank you for your work reviewing this and all those other articles I nominated. I'll thank you individually for all the others soon, but I needed to address this now. That appears to be GoodReads.com (not Rouzer and Frodsham) copy-pasting Wikipedia -- I am not sure about the copyright issues there, but I don't really mind them plagiarizing my words (it's something I kinda expect as a Wikipedianm and even if it was properly attributed to "Wikipedia" I wouldn't be getting direct credit for it anyway). I composed the English paragraph in question based on a Japanese-language source (Fukazawa), and haven't even read Frodsham (I wish I had access to it, but the Frodsham citations all predate my involvement in the article, and the content at that time was worded differently -- I rewrote it based on my sources). This is borne out by GoodReads.com having mistakenly included one of my citation numbers ("[6]") without the citation itself, and "Ueki et al. (1999)" as they cite it is nonsense, as there were surely plenty of works published by different "Ueki et al."s in 1999 and removed from the context in which I had that particular book's details included breaks the citation. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 20:18, 1 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Prose Suggestions

He was prevented from taking the imperial examination due to a naming taboo. suggest He was prevented from taking the imperial examination due to a part of his name violating the naming taboo.
@Hijiri88: That is all my suggestions. -- Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 14:00, 5 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

"scribbling it down and completing the poems when he arrived home"

@Quelcrime: I don't consider it "dismissive", and it most certainly is "sourced" (Ctrl+F the "Poetry" section for "when a line of poetry came to him he would jot it down"). If "scribble" is a problem for some editors, then we can just use the same word in the lead. "writing" is extremely bland and non-descriptive, and definitely inferior to BOTH "scribbling" and "jotting".

On a related note, is "scribble" dismissive because it sounds kinda like "drivel"? I am really curious why you thought that. I personally would prefer to use slightly different but essentially synonymous wording, so if you don't have a reason for thinking the previous wording was dismissive, I'd rather change it back.

Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 01:23, 7 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I'm puzzled by the above comment. Wikipedia is supposed to be factual - the fact that we know is that Li wrote down his poetic ideas. "Write" describes this factually. Another word might be more colourful, but at the same time more fanciful. "Scribble" is not a synonym of "write". The definition of "scribble" is "To write or draw carelessly and in a hurry". Do we have any evidence that Li wrote carelessly and in a hurry? Without evidence it's clearly derogatory. "Jot" is rather a colloquial word; its definition is similar but not so strongly negative as "scribble" - Wiktionary merely says "To write quickly". Do we have evidence he wrote quickly?Quelcrime (talk) 14:21, 8 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Quelcrime: I'm not going to get into a debate over whether Wikipedia is allowed record "facts" about a relatively obscure literary figure from 9th-century China. I used high-quality secondary and tertiary, mostly-scholarly, sources to write this article; we don't take a source that says he jotted or scribbled down notes while he was out and then constructed the poem that evening and neuter them to say he "wrote" lines of poetry. By saying "scribble" and "write" are not synonyms, you are admitting you altered the article to say something not supported by the source. Furthermore, the lead of the article is intended to summarize the body -- you should not edit the lead without also examining the body, but your edit summary claiming that there was "no source" indicates that that is exactly what you did. Have you read the source cited for the text? Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 16:35, 8 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Cite error: There are <ref group=lower-alpha> tags or {{efn}} templates on this page, but the references will not show without a {{reflist|group=lower-alpha}} template or {{notelist}} template (see the help page).

[ctp_183388_t-1] "Chinese Text Project entry 天上謠". Chinese Text Project. Retrieved 2017-02-21.

[tianshangyao_pinyin-2] The Chinese, Japanese, Vietnamese, and Mongolian Language Site Allusions to Classical Chinese Poetry in Pink Floyd (Li He / Li Ho).

[ctp_183395_t-3] "Chinese Text Project entry '秋來'". Chinese Text Project. Retrieved 2017-03-12.

[FOOTNOTEArai195960-4] Arai 1959, p. 60.

[ctp_183974_t-7] "Chinese Text Project entry '神弦曲'". Chinese Text Project. Retrieved 2017-03-27.

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