Talk:Levantine cuisine/Archive 1

Archive 1

Images

What I really want is a map of the Levant area, but pictures of respresentative cuisine would be nice too. RJFJR 14:37, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

Duly stolen from Levant. Pictures of the cuisine can be taken from the respective pages, but particularly appropriate here would be a spread of the appropriate salads and dishes: pita, hummus, tahini, baba ganouj, tabouleh, and so forth. --Mgreenbe 23:37, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

Levantine cuisine as a unit

From Talk:Baklava:

...while Lebanese, Syrian and Palestinian cuisine bear enough similarities to be grouped together as Levantine cuisine, is this really the case of Israeli cuisine? I'm asking because I don't know at all, but I would have imagined a considerable European influence as well as Levantine elements. Palmiro | Talk 13:31, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

A good question. While we would be hard pressed to find a dish available in Lebanon that's not available in Israel, that's an awfully weak criterion; if we stretch it to commonly available, then it still holds, but the inverse does not — schnitzel and matzo balls are not particularly common in Israel's neighbors. So: I'm wishy-washy, the issue goes both ways, multi-cultural this, immigrant culture that, "melting pot", and so forth.

That said: should references to all five of Lebanese, Syrian, Palestinian, Turkish, and Israeli cuisine together be condensed? Four out of five? Three out of five? The individual categories would naturally be untouched. Baklava is an example of the (delicious) problem: it lists its name in the language of its various cuisines. What to do? --Mgreenbe 00:24, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

I think on the basis of what you say there, Levantine cuisine should probably primarily deal with Syrian, Lebanese and Palestinian cuisine (I'm not sure how Jordan fits in, having to some extent absorbed the local prejudice that it isn't a "real" country), while pointing out the points of commonality and divergence with other cuisines. I would say that we should have a separate article on Israeli cuisine. In fact, drawing up such an article might be a useful first step to point us in the right direction for organisation of the field as a whole. Turkish cuisine, I think, while having many points in common also has quite a few differences. And in any case I don't think Turkey counts as the Levant (not that that's the best basis for deciding how to deal with this, but it can be considered a supplementary argument). Palmiro | Talk 15:23, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

That seems reasonable. I only mentioned Turkish cuisine because it's mentioned in the article. I'll do Israeli cuisine when I get a chance. What do you think about dealing with references? Should we reference each individual country and Levantine cuisine, or compress it when applicable? It wouldn't be fair to compress some but not others, so it's probably best not to.

As for Jordan, I don't know what Jordanian cuisine is at all. I've only been there briefly (Petra) and it was nine years ago, so I don't much remember the food. I'll be going there sometime this month, anyway, and will report back. --Mgreenbe 16:05, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

I'm just thinking back on my only visit to Jordan, and I had some delicious food the like of which I had never come across before, in a town in the north where we stayed one night. Meaty dishes with yoghurt and aubergine playing a large part. My impression on the whole is that it's similar to Syrian and Palestinian cuisine but with more of a bedouin influence, just as one might expect.

I think we should reference just Levantine cuisine for anything that's a common feature thereof; it's not much use to refer to Lebanese, Syrian and Palestinian cuisine for ubiquitous dishes the likes of maqloubeh, babaghanoush, labneh or muhammara. Palmiro | Talk 16:18, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

Maybe the aspect that the Levantine culinary tradition dates back at least to common basics of the Byzantine Empire should be worked out more. The Turkish (ie Ottoman) cuisine adopted many of these (amongst others). In Western Europa, because of a different culinary development in the later middle ages and modern times, we mostly look at it as if being a oriental cuisine, when in fact its just the ordinary cooking tradition from the Byzantine antiquity. Not to forget that the Levantine cuisine of today is also a product of the agrarian imports from the Americas via Western Europe (also many Lebanese fe have ties to Europe and the USA). And thats where the cuisine of Israel has its places - as beeing part of the more recent or modern Levantine cuisine (incorporating Western and Mizrahi-jewish ways of cooking).--77.117.35.25 (talk) 16:16, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for your contributions. I agree that modern Levantine cuisine owes a lot to the Columbian exchange (Fragner has a good discussion of this in A Taste of Thyme). There are certainly some dishes that can be traced to Byzantine and medieval Arab traditions, but as Fragner says about Ottoman cuisine:

It is a matter of mere speculation whether the origins of this imperial culinary legacy are to be traced back to Greek antiquity, the Byzantine heritage, or the ingenuity of the glorious Turkish and Arab nations, not forgetting Phoenician and Jewish traditions; nowadays you may find support for any of these claims in various countries in the Balkans and the Near East. (Fragner, p. 53)

Of course, if we can find solid, neutral reliable sources for the origins of Levantine (and Ottoman) cuisine, that would be great. --Macrakis (talk) 21:21, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

Israeli cuisine is not Levantine cuisine

This article states "Levantine cuisine is the traditional cuisine of the Levant." We can debate what "traditional" really means, but I don't think Challah ("a bread of Ashkenazi Jewish origin"), Jerusalem mixed grill (a dish reportedly invented in the 1960's), Sabich (an Iraqi dish popular in Israel) or Ptitim (invented in the 1950's) qualify as "traditional cuisine of the Levant". The fact that something is popular in a particular part of the Levant does not make it traditional Levantine. I mean, fried chicken is also very popular there.

I removed some links that I found irrelevant but would be open to debate it of course. FlorentinaBizzaria (talk) 15:00, 10 March 2023 (UTC)

Time to remove Steak tartare from the French cuisine category, as it comes from Tatars. Synotia (moan) 17:06, 12 March 2023 (UTC)

Read the article. It does not come from the Tatars, and "Florentine" dishes don't come from Florence. --Macrakis (talk) 16:05, 13 March 2023 (UTC)

☝️🤓

You completely missed my point... Synotia (moan) 16:09, 13 March 2023 (UTC)

Another example then if you want to be this petty: the removal of New York-style bagel from the American cuisine category, because bagels come from Polish Jews originally. This is similar as removing Sabich from the Levantine cuisine category, due to it being recent and based on something foreign. Synotia (moan) 16:12, 13 March 2023 (UTC)

I "missed your point" because your analogy didn't demonstrate your point.

@FlorentineBizzaria: has a point. Should we also include fried chicken and french fries in "Levantine cuisine"? They are also very widely eaten in the Levant. That said, "traditional" is a problematic concept. Heck, consider shawarma, which is just the local name for döner kebab, a Turkish dish. --Macrakis (talk) 17:03, 13 March 2023 (UTC)

Middle Eastern food cross-pollinated heavily during the Ottoman period. Hence you have dishes common from Morocco, across the Levant, through Turkey and into Greece, e.g.: shawarma, baklava. This is the general period that various forms of 'traditional' Middle Eastern foodstuffs date back to. American cuisine is not a great comparison, because much of American cuisine is comparatively recent, and similarly much of it is adopted from other cuisines. There is not real equivalent of a traditional American cuisine dating back 500 years, unless one were to refer to Native American cuisine. Iskandar323 (talk) 18:22, 13 March 2023 (UTC)

Addition of Eastern European and Iraqi dishes

User Davidroth has repeatedly added dishes from Eastern Europe and Iraq into this article: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Levantine_cuisine&diff=1162673192&oldid=1162442726

This article is about the traditional Levantine cuisine that originates from the Levant and are historically eaten there, not imported foreign dishes that are popular in Israel. In that case we could ad pizza and hamburgers to the list. Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 17:25, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

Agreed. Although "traditional" is a slippery term (cf. my essay), I think the intent is pretty clear here. Israel is certainly in the Levant, but the food in Israel includes foods from the Levant, foods from North Africa, foods from Central Europe, and for that matter, foods from North America (KFC), etc. In the same way that we wouldn't say that sushi and kimchi and shwarma are part of "traditional American cuisine" (though by now french fries are), even though they're widely available in north America, it doesn't makes sense to call challah and hamin Levantine cuisine. --Macrakis (talk) 18:51, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

I disagree. It's not about something being "widely available", but whether if it is part of the traditional cuisine of a (particular segment) of the population in the Levant - which Jews clearly are. The fact that challah may have originally come from Europe is hardly what matters here: Sambusac is originally of Indian origin, Lentil soup originates in Greece and even "Arabic coffee"came from Ethiopia - all of those are rightly in this article because they are part of the traditional cuisine of the local population, regardless of origin. Red Slapper (talk) 20:36, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

"but whether if it is part of the traditional cuisine of a (particular segment) of the population in the Levant" moved in eastern Europeans and Iraqis doesn't mean their cuisine is suddenly levantine. Their dishes are still eastern european and iraqi. If japanese people move to Jordan it doesn't mean sushi is Arab food. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 22:09, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

Red Slapper, can you find any reliable sources for the claim that challah and hamin are Levantine cuisine? --Macrakis (talk) 23:06, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

I haven't looked, but i could ask you the same thing about the examples I posted above. Red Slapper (talk) 23:51, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

Anyway, here's one example - a reliable source describing Komarovsky, an Israeli bread baker who "helped usher in the age of Levantine cuisine", and uses his Challas as an example. Red Slapper (talk) 00:02, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

and another Red Slapper (talk) 00:03, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

and one more. Will that do? Red Slapper (talk) 00:17, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

The Savieur and Forward sources doesn't say Challah is Levantine. Quite the opposite, they confirm that it was imported from Eastern Europe: "Challah has a natural home at Chabad, as this Hassidic movement’s leaders were originally from Belarus, and the ritual bread emigrated with the Jewish people to the U.S., Israel" So you can ad it at Eastern European cuisine article. The Haaretz source is inaccessible, please provide quote. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 00:29, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

Savieur says a chef who specializes in Levantine cuisine in Israel makes Challas. the Forward says "The challahs dipped in salt ... was sensational, a bold alchemy of the Levant and Maharashtra". I've already addressed your nonsense about the "origin" issue, above. Or are you going to remove Arabic coffee from the article, because it originates in Ethiopia? Red Slapper (talk) 00:56, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

Just having the word "Levant" in a sentence does not suddenly convey the attribute. Tex-Mex is a blend of Texan and traditional Mexican cooking, but that does not mean it falls under the latter; it is simply considered a part of US cuisine. Iskandar323 (talk) 02:02, 2 July 2023 (UTC)

moved in eastern Europeans and Iraqis doesn't mean their cuisine is suddenly levantine- I believe is the crux of this debate - you aren't really objecting this on policy grounds, but rather trying to score political points - you see Jewish Israelis as "moved in eastern Europeans and Iraqis", not as part of the Levant. It's despicable and has no place in an encyclopedia. Red Slapper (talk) 23:55, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

Agreed with SD: the two sources you cite do not say that challah etc. are Levantine. It is beyond WP:SYNTH to say that they do.

None of us have said that Jewish Israelis do not live in the Levant. We have simply said that European Jewish cuisine is not reasonably described as "Levantine cuisine". There are millions of Turks in Germany; does that make börek "traditional German food"? On the other hand, döner kebap sandwiches (though not döner kebap served on a plate) were apparently invented in Germany, and are an examples of modern German-Turkish fusion food. Still, they are not "traditional German food".

Kindly assume good faith. You will see from my editing history that I have a strong interest in food history. Claiming that I (or others) are "despicably" trying to "score political points" is an uncalled-for personal attack and inappropriate. --Macrakis (talk) 18:52, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

My comment regarding political point scoring was not directed at you, but at the other editor who stated that Israeli Jews are "moved in eastern Europeans and Iraqis".

Please reread my post above, explaining the difference between "widely available' (which is not the criterion I'm using ), and "part of traditional cuisine", whcih is clearly what Challah and hamin are. Let me know what's not clear to you about this distinction Red Slapper (talk) 19:23, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

Challah and hamin are clearly part of the traditional cuisine of European Jews. That does not make them a part of "traditional Levantine cuisine", even if there are millions of European Jews who live in the Levant, just as baklava and kimchi are not part of "traditional American cuisine" although there are millions of Greeks and Koreans living in America, and börek is not part of traditional German cuisine although there are millions of Turks living in Germany. I'm not sure how I could be more clear. --Macrakis (talk) 20:39, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

So Israeli Jews living in Israel are like Koreans living in America? That is an offensive political POV that doesn't really require a response. Red Slapper (talk) 20:51, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

Millions of Jews settled in Palestine for good reason, and created Israel. What does that have to do with whether the dishes they brought from their home countries are Levantine? And where is the "offensive political POV"? --Macrakis (talk) 21:04, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

The offensive political POV is that Israeli Jews, an overwhelming majority in their modern nation-state reconstituted in their ancestral homeland are somehow similar to Korean immigrants to the US. If you don't see how that is a ridiculous comparison, or how it is offensive, I can't really help you, and this discussion is probably over. Red Slapper (talk) 21:12, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

Yes, of course Israeli Jews are the majority in Israel, and yes, their ancestors lived there many centuries ago. What does this have to do with "Levantine cuisine"? Why are you trying so hard to politicize this discussion? --Macrakis (talk) 21:41, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

It wasn't me who politicized this discussion. I refer you again to the comment above - "moved in eastern Europeans and Iraqis doesn't mean their cuisine is suddenly levantine" - see who made it. And further see how they tried to remove even dishes that originated in Israel (ptitim, mixed Jerusalem grill), or dishes that originated in Iraq by Jews but not those that originated in Egypt or Ethiopia.

This whole line of argument seems to stem from an assumption that Israel is not really part of the Levant. If it is part of the Levant, and its population's traditional cuisine includes challa and hamin, then obvisouly those are Levantine dishes. Red Slapper (talk) 21:50, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

Let's talk about ptitim for a second. It is a modern Israeli food, but is it a "traditional Jewish food"? I don't think so. I also don't think it's a "traditional Levantine food". --Macrakis (talk) 23:00, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

Let's talk about hamin for a second. Is hamin a traditional Jewish food? Is it part of the cuisine of the majority of Israel? How can it then be excluded? Red Slapper (talk) 23:06, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

Jewish cuisine and Israeli cuisine are separate articles. Dishes in those cuisines are not automatically "traditional Levantine cuisine"; this is just making a mess of distinct subjects. Iskandar323 (talk) 02:17, 2 July 2023 (UTC)

Exactly, these are imported eastern european and iraqi dishes that Israelis consider "Israeli", so they belong in the Israeli cuisine article, not Levantine cuisine as they are not in any way levantine. All the Arab dishes in the list are deep rooted and well known by all Levantine people, Syrians, Lebanese, Jordanians and Palestinians. If you asked a Jordanian what "challah" is , he would have no idea what you are talking about. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 06:00, 2 July 2023 (UTC)

And similarly, Arab Cuisine or Lebanese Cuisine are separate articles. If you want to talk about the cuisine of a very large and loosely defined geographic region like the Levant, then the article needs to cover every cuisine in the region Red Slapper (talk) 12:02, 2 July 2023 (UTC)

Arab and Lebanese cuisine are traditional levantine cuisine. Eastern European and Iraqi dishes are not levantine dishes.--Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 18:20, 2 July 2023 (UTC)

I'm done talking to POV-pushing nationalists who want to score political points. Red Slapper (talk) 18:23, 2 July 2023 (UTC)

Now let's go back to ptitim, and compare with another example - Butter chicken - is this dish part of Indian Cuisine? I think you'd be hard pressed to find someone who claims otherwise. Indeed, it is featured in the picture gallery of Indian cuisine, and categorized under that category. Yet it was invented in the 1950s, just like ptitim. So clearly the longevity of a dish is not something we commonly use when categorizing dishes by region. What I am getting at, and the reason I am saying that this is motivated by politics, is that there is a calculated attempt to exclude all foods that make up the cuisine of Israeli Jews from this article, under multiple, changing pretexts: If a dish originated in Israel (like ptitim), it is by defintion no more than 75 years old, and is thus excluded under the pretext of "not traditional"; and if it is older (and thus by defintion originates outside of Israel) it is excluded under the pretext of 'brought in from the outside' - 'heads I win, tails you lose'. Red Slapper (talk) 00:11, 2 July 2023 (UTC)

Butter chicken was created by Hindus in India and is well known in india. Ptitim was created by non-levantines in a region they moved in to. It is not a Levantine dish. No Levantines eat it or even know what it is. Only israelis eat it and only they know what it is. There is an article where Ptitim belongs, the Israeli cuisine article. Not here.--Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 06:13, 2 July 2023 (UTC)

Ptitim was created by non-levantines in a region they moved in to. Thanks for confirming what I suggested above - that this entire argument is based on the premise that the inhabitants of one of the main countries of the Levant are not Levantine. An offensive political point of view that has no place in a serious encyclopedia. Red Slapper (talk) 11:38, 2 July 2023 (UTC)

This page literally starts by stating that it is about traditional Levantine cuisine, which makes it pretty clear that it is not about contemporary fusion cuisine or recent imports into the Levant region. If some editors are abiding by this and others are simply saying it is "anything eaten in the Levant" then the discussion is taking place with people at cross purposes. Iskandar323 (talk) 02:12, 2 July 2023 (UTC)

Perhaps the page could have a section added on contemporary and/or fusion cuisine to resolve this dissonance. Iskandar323 (talk) 02:24, 2 July 2023 (UTC)

I think that could work - add a "contemporary"s section to it, and put Ptitim and Jerusalem Mixed grill there. Red Slapper (talk) 12:03, 2 July 2023 (UTC)

Do you have sources that say Ptitim and Jerusalem Mixed Grill are contemporary levantine dishes?--Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 18:14, 2 July 2023 (UTC)

• Marks, G. (1999). The: World of Jewish Cooking. Over 613 Traditional Recipes from Alsace to Yemen. Simon & Schuster. ISBN 978-0-684-83559-4. Retrieved 9 July 2023. On Syrian Jews in Israel: "'Although today many Syrians serve egg challah on the Sabbath, in Syria they served pita', she explains. In Syrian homes, the host tears the challah and tosses the pieces to fellow diners." (p.364) BobFromBrockley (talk) 22:28, 9 July 2023 (UTC) Also a very long entry on challah in her book, Marks, G. (2010). Encyclopedia of Jewish Food. Houghton Mifflin Harcourt. ISBN 978-0-544-18631-6. Retrieved 9 July 2023., which makes it clear term is not solely Ashkenazi but has been used historically by Sephardic and in particular Syrian Jews. BobFromBrockley (talk) 22:42, 9 July 2023 (UTC)
• Some UK restaurant reviews that mention "Yemeni challah" in describing the fare served at "Levantine" restaurants: "As is customary in Israel, we start by breaking freshly baked warm Yemeni challah bread served with the same butter." - "Which of London's newest eateries is the best? – Patio London". Patio London. Retrieved 9 July 2023./Nast, Condé (10 August 2022). "The best restaurants in South Kensington". CN Traveller. Retrieved 9 July 2023. "Highlights included the Yemeni challah which arrived first with side dishes of whipped za’atar butter and darkly delicious and smoky black tahina." - thejc.com https://www.thejc.com/lets-eat/the-fresser/go-west-for-a-taste-of-the-levant-6EdyOOAn0DS6yaAUZ82kZy. Retrieved 9 July 2023. {{cite web}}: Missing or empty |title= (help) BobFromBrockley (talk) 22:35, 9 July 2023 (UTC)
• Small, R.P. (2022). The Levantine Table. Ryland Peters & Small. ISBN 978-1-78879-463-3. Retrieved 9 July 2023. A book called The Levantine Kitchen that mentions that "the Jews" eat challah on the Sabbath. BobFromBrockley (talk) 22:37, 9 July 2023 (UTC)

Not a single one of those sources say that Challah is a levantine dish. The first talks about Syrian Jews didn't eat cahllah in the past, but now they do... and? The second source, could you please ad the quote that challah is levantine? The blog reviews are not reliable sources for anything and I don't see how any of them confirm that Challah is levantine. The Levantine Table books full title is: "Vibrant and aromatic recipes from the Middle East and beyond", How does this source confirm that Challah is levantine? --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 18:31, 10 July 2023 (UTC)

Sorry I should have clarified: I don't think these are clinchers. They're data points I thought others might find useful to look at. But what you call "blog reviews" are reviews in reputable publications (Conde Nast Traveller, Jewish Chronicle) although obviously not scholarly sources. BobFromBrockley (talk) 00:06, 11 July 2023 (UTC)

Scholarly sources become a bit thin on the ground in food history. Challah is certainly a bread with an interesting history both in the Levant and among the diaspora communities [1]. The main problem with this page is that it remains conflicted over what it is actually describing. Though not a reliable sources this page makes what I think is a key observation. When you define a cuisine you are really looking for those classic dishes that are not just traditional but "shared plates" across the geographies that the cuisine is associated with. Challah might be traditional within and outside of the Levant, but it is obviously also a bread tradition highly distinct to Jewish cuisine and communities. I wonder if there is a distinction to be drawn between "shared" items with Levantine cuisine that are consumed widely across Levantine communities with little cultural specificity and items that are part of a cuisine shared only within a community or geography that represents a subsection of the Levantine community or the Levant. Iskandar323 (talk) 07:27, 11 July 2023 (UTC)

I just came across this discussion, and I am shocked to see some eastern European dishes claimed to be Levantine. As user Iskandar and others have pointed out, the use of a specific dish by a specific group in a specific region does not make a dish Levantine. Levantine cuisine to me means that people every part of the Levant eat that. Examples include hummus, falafel, baba ghannouj, etc. Cheers, Amr ibn Kulthoumعمرو بن كلثوم (talk) 19:52, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

Dovidroths removal of Dubious tags

Dovidroth, you removed several dubious tags saying: "Rv false, misleading edit summary that reverted Iskandar's compromise. Per agreement in talk page". The tags does not revert anything, Iskandars edit is untouched. You also say: "Iskandar's compromise. Per agreement in talk page", if you looked at the discussion at the talkpage I asked "Do you have sources that say Ptitim and Jerusalem Mixed Grill are contemporary levantine dishes?-" and not one single reply or source was provided that they are "Contemporary levantine". So how is this an "agreement" or "compromise" ? You also removed the tags from other Eastern European and Iraqi dishes that has nothing to do with the "Contemporary" section. So you incorrectly removed the tags based on several inaccurate claims. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 18:46, 10 July 2023 (UTC)

Dovidroth, you have once again removed the dubious tags without addressing the issue:[2]. Could you show the "compromise" at this talkpage you are talking about where these European dishes should be in this article about Levantine cuisine? --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 06:38, 22 July 2023 (UTC)