Talk:Levantine Arabic/Archive 2

This is an archive of past discussions about Levantine Arabic. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

Current version and proposed modifications

Hi,

WatanWatan2020 and I recently engaged in an unproductive series of edits and reverts. That's why I open this discussion to reach a consensus on the article's content.

I'm not satisfied with the current version, issued from WatanWatan2020's last edit. Here's a summary of this edit:

Replaced the "plainlist" template in the infobox by a simple inline list of scripts.
Defined Levantine in the summary as "spoken by the Arabs that are in present-day Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, Palestine...".
Removed the distinction in the summary between "daily spoken use" (Levantine) and the formal MSA. Removed that MSA is nobody's native language. Removed the sources backing these statements.
Removed that in Israel Hebrew is official whereas MSA has "special status" (+ removed the source).
Added in the summary that "In Israel, Levantine Arabic is spoken by its Arab population which compromises about 20 percent of the total population. The Arabs of Israel and the Palestinians speak the same form of Levantine Arabic." Did not add a source for these statements.
Removed that Levantine and MSA are not mutually intelligible (+ removed the source).
Removed in the "South Levantine" section that Levantine is spoken "by Arabs" in Israel.
Removed two sources (Cowell and Liddicoat) about MSA vs Levantine mutual intelligibility and differences.
In the number table, added a "tel" link.

I think these modifications should be reverted, because (each number matches with the above list):

The "plainlist" template precisely exists to display nice bullet lists in infoboxes. I don't understand WatanWatan2020's modification here as they did the opposite thing in a previous edit (replacing inline list by a bullet list).
Some Arabs in the listed countries do not speak Levantine (according to Ethnologue for instance, Najdi Arabic, Mesopotamian Arabic, and North Mesopotamian Arabic are also spoken in the East of Syria and Jordan; while in Turkey many Arabs also "lost" their language and are now monolingual Turkish speakers) and some (native or second-language) speakers of Levantine in the Levant aren't Arabs (Armenians, Turkmens, Kurds, Assyrians, Greeks, etc.). Also, no source has been provided by WatanWatan2020.
The previous version was referenced whereas the current version is unreferenced. Also, given that the difference between MSA and dialects/varieties is a much talked about subject, it's worth noting in the summary the status of each one (native language vs acquired language). It's actually also mentioned in the introductions of most books about Levantine, so it should be mentioned in this encyclopedia article as well. Also the current version seems to imply that all populations in Syria, Jordan, Lebanon, and Palestine speak Levantine, whereas some may speak other languages/dialects/varieties (Kurdish, Mesopotamian Arabic, Armenian, etc.).
I think it's worth mentioning what is the official language in the countries where Levantine is spoken, so that's why there was one sentence about Israel whereas MSA has "special status".
The part "The Arabs of Israel and the Palestinians speak the same form of Levantine Arabic." isn't referenced. And actually there are many sources (mentioned below in the article) claiming that the dialect spoken by Arabs of Israel has a lot of Hebrew loanwords compared to the dialect spoken by Palestinians in Palestine.
Reliable sources mentioned in the article confirm that MSA and Levantine are not mutually intelligible, there's no reason to remove it.
I don't understand why WatanWatan2020 removed here that Levantine was spoken by Arabs in Israel but added the same thing in the summary. It makes more sense to me to be more specific in the text than in the summary.
There's no reason to remove these two good sources (Cowell in particular is the reference in Levantine grammar).
This is probably a bug/typo and should be removed asap.

What do you think? Especially other contributors such as @SarahFatimaK and AdrianAbdulBaha:. A455bcd9 (talk) 12:25, 22 August 2021 (UTC)

This user A455bcd9 has implemented false information not only on this page but also on the Mashriq page where he listed Israel as an Arab country. He also kept deleting the fact that Arabic is spoken by the Arabs within the Levant. This amongst many other things. He filed a complaint against me to administrators hoping for me to get sanctioned, although that did not work out for him as they could themselves see exactly what he was publishing, the misinformation within pages. Since he did not get his way over there, now he comes here and attempts this.

Question is, why didnt this user do this in the beginning? This is because it was never his intention, rather he wanted to continue to implement and maintain the false information within these pages. He has also deleted the publishings of other users in the past and has maintained a grip over this page for quite some time. He cherry picks sources to fit his own narrative. He has also deleted out of spite. For example, i cleaned up the written script template to make it look more organized without changing a single piece of information, and he deleted it and changed it back to the unorganized version. He was warned by an administrator to not edit any more of my publishings or he will be blocked. Do not fall sympathetic to this attempt. Check this page and and Mashriq to get a bette understanding of what he has published and then check Administrators boards to see what was said there, and the warning given to him. WatanWatan2020 (talk) 17:43, 22 August 2021 (UTC)

Here are my remarks on @A455bcd9:'s points:

I am indifferent.
I am not against this phrasing (but change "the Arabs" to just "Arabs"), however I agree that it would be useful to include the fact that some ethnic Arabs may not speak the language anymore & especially that non-Arabs (e.g. Armenians) do speak it; but since this is a nuanced issue, the entire comment probably does belong in the text rather than in the summary.
Agreed with @A455bcd9:, and in general I agree that the relationship between Standard Arabic & Spoken Arabic is worthy of comment. If WatanWatan2020 disagrees with the position described by @A455bcd9:, they are welcome to account for a differing opinion by citing sources that advocate for that perspective, but not by deleting the issue out of the article altogether; if anything, this shows the importance of accounting for a difference in opinion on this issue.
Agreed with @A455bcd9:; there is no reason to remove this.
Agreed with @A455bcd9:. First of all, facts should be cited. Secondly, referring to the Palestinian citizens of Israel as "the Arabs of Israel" — as distinct to "the Palestinians" — is confusing and politically dubious. This is a complex subject, so it is important to use consistent and clear terminology. If necessary, I can discuss this in further detail.
Agreed with @A455bcd9:. Same issue as #3.
I'm not sure I see the problem here, based on what we've discussed in #2; for instance, Levantine Arabic is spoken by Palestinian Armenians — many of whom are Israeli citizens, although they live in East Jerusalem. Again, it's probably best to discuss this in detail in the text.
Agreed with @A455bcd9:. Same issue as #3 & #6.
I don't know what this means.

AdrianAbdulBaha (talk) 20:04, 22 August 2021 (UTC)

Hi,

WatanWatan2020: to move forward, I suggest we put aside previous content disputes (especially if not related to this article) :) So, could you please answer the specific points and provide Wikipedia:Reliable sources for each of them?

@AdrianAbdulBaha: Regarding 2, first of all no source has been provided. Here's a comparison of the two versions:

Before: "Levantine Arabic [...] is a sprachbund of vernacular Arabic indigenous in the Levant, that is, in present-day Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, Palestine, Israel, Turkey (provinces of Mersin and Hatay), and Egypt (Arish only)."
After: "Levantine Arabic [...] is a sprachbund of vernacular Arabic indigenous to the Levant, spoken by the Arabs that are in present-day Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, Palestine, Israel, Turkey (provinces of Mersin and Hatay), and Egypt (Arish only)."

"Before" is factually correct (Levantine is indigenous to the Levant, this is a fact, and it is sourced), whereas "After" is not. It is for instance not true that "Levantine ... is spoken by the Arabs that are ... in Jordan". Because many Arabs in Jordan (and in the rest of the Levant) do not speak Levantine. In Jordan (10.1 million inhabitants), according to Ethnologue:

1,110,000 speak Bedawi (avl)
1,000,000 speak Mesopotamian (acm)
101,000 speak Najdi (ars)
404,000 speak North Mesopotamian (ayp)
5,560,000 speak South Levantine (ajp)
(total Arabic speakers = 8.2 million, I think the difference with the overall population is linked to the massive number of Syrian refugees, speakers of North Levantine, not taken into account by Ethnologue: there's at least 1.3 million Syrian refugees)

A factually correct version (but that would still requires reliable sources before we can add it) would be:

"Levantine Arabic [...] is a sprachbund of vernacular Arabic indigenous to the Levant, that is in present-day Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, Palestine, Israel, Turkey (provinces of Mersin and Hatay), and Egypt (Arish only). Levantine cohabitates with other varieties of Arabic in the Levant, such as Mesopotamian. In areas where it is indigenous, Levantine is spoken by Arabs and other ethnic groups [we can add a footnote here with some examples], either as a first language or an acquired language."

But it's long and not necessary I think. And above all, it's not sourced (I think it's easy to find sources saying that Levantine and other varieties are spoken in the Levant, but for the ethnic groups I don't know).

So that's why, unless we find a good source + a nice wording I would prefer to revert this part. A455bcd9 (talk) 09:01, 23 August 2021 (UTC)

Poke @Nehme1499:, as you contributed to this article in the past, your opinion is more than welcomed here. :) A455bcd9 (talk) 09:58, 30 August 2021 (UTC)

Hi, I'm not really well-versed in linguistics so I don't have strong opinions. The most important thing is that everything is well-sourced by reliable sources, and that it's all written from a NPOV. Nehme₁₄₉₉ 13:16, 30 August 2021 (UTC)

Hi @Nehme1499:

Yes exactly. The current version removed some sources and added unsourced information so that's why I suggest to:

Revert this edit.
If some users want to add back some parts of it, they should provide sources.

What do you think?

@WatanWatan2020 what's your opinion on the above messages and the different points? A455bcd9 (talk) 14:42, 30 August 2021 (UTC)

Hi,

@WOSlinker: has already reverted point 9 (this edit, thanks!) so we have the other 8 points left.

@WatanWatan2020: Did you have any time to read the above messages? What's your opinion?

In the absence of any opposition backed by reliable sources to points 1 and 3 to 8, I plan to implement them. On the other hand, as @AdrianAbdulBaha said he wasn't against point 2, we can leave it open to discussion. Poke @SarahFatimaK: if you have any opinion on point 2 (and the others :) ).

Best, A455bcd9 (talk) 09:14, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

Hi,

As discussed earlier, I reverted points 1 (plainlist template), 3-5 (diglossia), 6&8 (MSA-Levantine mutual intelligibility), 9 (typo).

I think point 7 can stay as it is now: WatanWatan2020 was right to remove the mention that Levantine is spoken "by Arabs". (But then I don't understand why they added this information in the summary (point 2) anyway...)

Regarding point 2: as suggested by @AdrianAbdulBaha I changed "the Arabs" to just "Arabs" and mentioned that other ethnic groups also speak Levantine without providing more details. A455bcd9 (talk) 12:03, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

Hi, I see that @A455bcd9 once again reverted the information to what was previously disputed. You also newly added that other ethnic groups may speak Levantine Arabic. But where you placed it is not where it was supposed to be. I moved it to the end of the paragraph to maintain the significance of the prime information. It is spoken by other ethnic groups as a lingua Franca and an add on. Levantine Arabic is also native only to the Arab communities within Israel. The third paragraph was very disorganized and was cleaned up to have better run-on speech. The part where you added "Hebrew is the official language in Israel" has nothing to do with this article. This is an article on Levantine Arabic and the inference of MSA was made regarding MSA vs Levantine in Arab countries. I will go ahead and compromise and not oppose what you re-published to end this dispute. And by the way, it seems you cleaned up the written script template after i had already done it, which happened to look more organizing. But you deleted that. It is fine, it will be left the way you have it now. thanks WatanWatan2020 (talk)

Hi WatanWatan2020,

We had a discussion above and you did not provide any counter arguments or any references to back your claims and you did not object to what AdrianAbdulBaha and I suggested, even though I asked you several times. Instead, you opened a Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/A455bcd9/Archive...

Then, after we reached consensus here, and without discussing you implemented changes that we explicitly discussed and considered wrong. For instance, writing that Levantine is "spoken by the Arabs" in the Levant, whereas it is, according to the various academic sources provided (such as Ethnologue), only spoken by some Arabs. Indeed, as explained above, other Arabs in the region may speak Mesopotamian Arabic or Bedawi Arabic for instance.

You also removed sourced content about the status of MSA in Israel and you added unsourced content ("Levantine Arabic is also used as a lingua franca by other ethnic groups within the region." => I don't disagree with it, but you have to provide a source that Levantine is a "lingua franca" in the region).

Therefore, in line with the Wikipedia:BOLD, revert, discuss cycle (BRD), I reverted your last edit. As recommended on by the BRD cycle: "If your edit gets reverted, do not revert again. Instead, begin a discussion with the person who reverted your change." Reverting the edit again would be Wikipedia:Edit warring. Please instead discuss here and suggest improvements. For each suggestion please provide Wikipedia:Reliable sources.

Thanks for your help!

A455bcd9 (talk) 07:42, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

Regarding the written script template I've just changed it from Template:Plainlist to Template:Bulleted list. It does look better indeed. Is it okay for you now? A455bcd9 (talk) 07:47, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

Here is a suggestion for the summary regarding languages and their status:

Levantine is not officially recognized in any country where it is spoken.^[1] Indeed, in the frame of the general diglossia status of the Arab world, although Levantine is used by Arabs for daily spoken use, most of the written and official documents and media use another official language. In Jordan, Lebanon, Palestine, and Syria it is Modern Standard Arabic (MSA), a variety of formal Arabic which is nobody's native language and is only acquired through education.^[2] In Israel, Hebrew is the main language used in the public sphere, while MSA has "a special status."^[3] In Turkey, only Turkish has official status.^[4]

It explains the (lack of) status of Levantine Arabic in the region and what are instead the recognized languages in the Levant.

What do you think? A455bcd9 (talk) 08:22, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

Dear @WatanWatan2020:,

Despite my message you have just reverted back your edit. Including modifications that I recently added and that you were asking for such as using a bulleted list for writing systems. I don't understand why you behave this way. Could you please discuss here, suggest your modifications, provide reliable sources, and tell me if you agree (or disagree) with the paragraph I suggested in my above message?

Thanks for your cooperation. A455bcd9 (talk) 09:56, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

Hi, you are a major problem.? Did you not read that I made the compromise with you? You can see that we disputed, was added back by you and I made ok with it. What you discussed above was re implemented by you. You came back again to delete my publishing. Is there a personal problem you have with me? Stop deleting factual information. It seems more clear to me you are on this page with an agenda and POV to push. Are you trying to culturally appropriate from Arabs, like you are doing with the Arabic language here? You have been attempting for quite some time now to make it seem Levantine Arabic is not native to Levantine Arabs. It is shameful and atrocious. This colonial like Pov pushing is uncalled for so stop doing it. You attempted now to shift information around and conceal other important information into a number source that no one will be able to read to fit your POV pushing narrative. MSA in Israel is already discussed in the diglossia section below, as it should be. The summary is for prime and most relevant information. Other ethnic groups within the region speak the language as a lingua franca; it does not give you the excuse to take away Levantine Arabic from its native speakers, the Arabs. If some of the Arabs no longer speak it, rather a different variety, that again is not an excuse. To make it clear to you for the last time, Arabic is the native language of Arabs. And that’s quite rich coming from you where you mention that if one reverts an edit, the other shouldn’t change it and start a discussion. It was you that was doing this in the edit war you started, and after, went to complain to admin in which they then warned you that if you delete my edits again, you will be blocked. So you started this discussion as another attempt at your goal. Do not delete my publishing again for the last time, or I will be reporting you to admin. The page is clear and concise. I compromised with your re-edits and you should be absolutely fine with mine. Do not start another problem. WatanWatan2020 (talk)

Hi @WatanWatan2020:,

Thanks for your answer.

I do not have any problem with you or anyone else :)

You wrote: "Stop deleting factual information." But could you please provide Wikipedia:Reliable sources when you add "factual information"?

You wrote: "you are on this page with an agenda and POV to push" I don't understand what you're talking about. What is my agenda according to you?

You wrote: "You have been attempting for quite some time now to make it seem Levantine Arabic is not native to Levantine Arabs." Actually I added to the infobox today that the ethnicity of Levantine Arabic-speakers was "Mostly Arabs" (see here) and you reverted this addition! So I did precisely the opposite of what you're accusing me of (which is, I emphasized in the summary of the article that native speakers were mostly Arabs) and you reverted this useful addition.

On reverting, I followed the Wikipedia:BOLD, revert, discuss cycle: you added back information that we agreed to remove on this talk page, so I reverted it. Then you should have discussed here instead of doing edit warring.

Regarding the content itself:

* Academic sources mention that many Arabs in the Levant do not speak Levantine so that's why it's wrong to write that "the Arabs" in the region speak Levantine.

* Yes the summary is for "The summary is for prime and most relevant information": the lack of official status of Levantine in the region and the other official languages used instead (MSA, Hebrew, and Turkish) is relevant.

* "Other ethnic groups within the region speak the language as a lingua franca": in areas where Levantine is spoken, probably, but do you have a source confirming this? (for instance, Levantine is not used as a lingua franca by Jews living in settlements in Palestine)

A455bcd9 (talk) 10:53, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

About the ethnicity template, i did not see that. I added it in there, and more accurately too. It is native to the Arabs in general not simply “‘mostly arabs”. The rest again is your attempt at culturally appropriating Levantine Arabic away from Arabs. And your reason for trying to discuss completely different languages in the lead summary such as Turkish and Hebrew is completely uncalled for and illogical. It is already discussed in the diglossia section below, as it should be.

"For instance Jews may not use it as a lingua franca in the settlements in Palestine" is what you said for the excuse. there are jews that speak it in Israel to communicate with the Arab communities. Let go of the attempts to find excuses to remove factual information please. WatanWatan2020 (talk) 11:38, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for adding it back. I wrote "mostly Arabs" because other ethnic groups speak the language. For instance, Al-Wer writes that: "The most important ethnic and linguistic minority group [in Jordan] is the Circassians, who estimate the size of their community to be in the region of 60000. Circassian has been undergoing shift in favour of Jordanian Arabic, with only 16% of the younger Circassian generation reporting some competence in the ethnic language" I added this information and the source to the infobox.

Be careful when you revert an edit because you also revert some edits between that you did not intend to revert. In particular you reverted this edit to save links, this one where I added a nice bulleted list, these two where I added a link to "Arab communities". Do you agree to add back these edits?

Regarding the status of Levantine as a lingua franca among ethnic groups: could you please provide a reliable source?

Regarding the summary and the mention of different languages, I suggested this summary: what do you think of it?

Levantine is not officially recognized in any country where it is spoken.^[1] Indeed, in the frame of the general diglossia status of the Arab world, although Levantine is used by Arabs for daily spoken use, most of the written and official documents and media use another official language. In Jordan, Lebanon, Palestine, and Syria it is Modern Standard Arabic (MSA), a variety of formal Arabic which is nobody's native language and is only acquired through education.^[2] In Israel, Hebrew is the main language used in the public sphere, while MSA has "a special status."^[3] In Turkey, only Turkish has official status.^[4]

Also, you can use ":" to indent your answers in the conversation, it's then easier to read.

Regards, A455bcd9 (talk) 11:52, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

Hi, as I recently under-took a peer-review of this article, I thought I would give my view. I understand point 1 and point 9 of the items of disagreement from A455bcd9's list have been resolved through discussion so I will give my opinion on 2-8.

2. "Levantine Arabic [...] is a sprachbund of vernacular Arabic indigenous in the Levant, that is, in present-day Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, Palestine, Israel, Turkey (provinces of Mersin and Hatay), and Egypt (Arish only)." is preferable as it is clear some Arabs in the Levant don't speak Levantine natively and some non-Arabs do.

3. Revert to the version by @A455bcd9:, per AdrianAbdulBaha.

4. The special status of Arabic in Israel is sourced and clearly relevant in the lede. It would be standard practice in language articles (except those of the monster languages like English, Spanish and French) to include all countries where spoken and given official status in the lede.

5. I would suggest that all this material might not be appropriate for the lede, at least in its current form. Perhaps a simple statement after restoring the special status sentence of "and is the daily language of Israel's Palestinian population" or similar.

6. I can see no logic to this, the fact MSA and Levantine are not mutually intelligible is clearly relevant.

7. I suspect many "non-Arabs" (in modern terminology as generally used) in Israel still speak Levantine natively (or at least remember it) but then we get to a thorny point of how we classify Jewish Arabs. Perhaps better not to open that can of worms?

8. Inexplicable, put the sources back.

Overall, I would recommend that @WatanWatan2020: moderate their tone, use paragraphs, and try to focus on specific points of disagreement. The numbered organisation of points of disagreement meant I was always able to follow the points made by other users, but I may have missed important information from WatanWatan2020 Boynamedsue (talk) 06:00, 16 September 2021 (UTC)

Thanks a lot for your comment @Boynamedsue:.

As you said, points 1 and 9 have been solved through discussion. Actually I consider that points 3 (diglossia), 5 (Palestinians in Israel), 6 (MSA and Levantine lack of mutual intelligibility), 7 (Levantine spoken by Arabs in Israel) and 8 (removed sources) have also been solved through discussion: the current version does not contain these contentious points and @WatanWatan2020: wrote above in a undated message: "I will go ahead and compromise and not oppose what you re-published to end this dispute."

So the remaining contentious points are #2 (the ethnicity of Levantine native and second language speakers) and #4 (the, lack of, status of Levantine in Israel).

I summed up the modifications I suggest in the table below. I highlighted in yellow excerpts that are not sourced at all in the current version.

Suggested modifications
Point	Current version	Proposed version	Rationale
#2	Levantine Arabic, also called Shami (autonym: شامي‎ šāmi, or Arabic: اللَّهْجَةُ الشَّامِيَّة, il-lahje š-šāmiyye),^[5] or simply Levantine, is a sprachbund^[6] of vernacular Arabic indigenous to Arab countries and communities within the Levant. It is spoken by the Arabs who live in present-day Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, Palestine, Israel, Turkey (provinces of Mersin and Hatay), and Egypt (Arish only).^[7]^[8] It is also spoken by members of the Arab diaspora coming from this region, most significantly among the Palestinian, Lebanese, and Syrian diasporas.^[9] Levantine Arabic is also used as a lingua franca by other ethnic groups within the region.	Levantine Arabic, also called Shami (autonym: شامي‎ šāmi, or Arabic: اللَّهْجَةُ الشَّامِيَّة, il-lahje š-šāmiyye),^[5] or simply Levantine, is a sprachbund^[6] of vernacular Arabic indigenous to the Levant. It is spoken by Arabs and other ethnic groups who live in present-day Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, Palestine, Israel, Turkey (provinces of Mersin and Hatay), and Egypt (Arish only).^[10]^[7] It is also spoken by members of the Arab diaspora coming from this region, most significantly among the Palestinian, Lebanese, and Syrian diasporas.^[11]	As discussed above and as mentioned by the sources already present in the article (see the "Ethnicity" field in the infobox for instance), Levantine Arabic is spoken natively by some Arabs in the Levant, not all of them. Other Arabic varieties spoken in the region include Mesopotamian Arabic and Bedawi Arabic. Some other ethnic groups also speak Levantine as a native language, sources for instance mention that most Circassians in Jordan (second largest ethnic group in Jordan after Arabs) are now monolingual Levantine speakers and that there is a similar shift among Armenians in Jordan. On the other hand, sources mention that Armenians in Lebanon (second largest ethnic group in Lebanon after Arabs) and Chechens in Jordan maintain their ethnic language and speak Levantine as a second language. The current version is therefore wrong, according to various reliable academic sources. The sentence "Levantine Arabic is also used as a lingua franca by other ethnic groups within the region" is not referenced and is not true. For instance, Levantine Arabic is not the lingua franca of Jews living in Israel, in the Golan Heights or in Palestine. Furthermore, most Arabs in the Levant who don't speak Levantine would still be able to communicate with Levantine Arabic speakers thanks to mutual intelligibility between their dialects and/or by using Modern Standard Arabic (which may be considered by some sources as the lingua franca of the Arab world).
#4	In the frame of the general diglossia status of the Arab world, Levantine is used by Arabs for daily spoken use in Jordan, Lebanon, Palestine, and Syria while most of the written and official documents and media within these countries use Modern Standard Arabic (MSA), a form of formal Arabic which is nobody's native language and is only acquired through formal education.^[2]	Levantine is not officially recognized in any state or territory.^[1] Indeed, in the frame of the general diglossia status of the Arab world, Levantine is used by Arabs for daily spoken use, while in Jordan, Lebanon, Palestine, and Syria most of the written and official documents and media use the official and more formal Modern Standard Arabic (MSA), which is nobody's native language and is only acquired through education.^[2] In Israel, Hebrew is the main language used in the public sphere, while MSA has "a special status."^[3] In Turkey, only Turkish has official status.^[4]	As Boynamedsue explained, it is customary for articles about languages to mention in the summary jurisdictions where they have official status (see for instance Catalan language and Irish language). It is also common for articles about minority languages to mention the lack of official status (see for example Occitan language and Russian language in Israel). Given the special context of diglossia in the Arab world, and here in the Levant, it also makes sense to mention to readers the particularity of the linguistic situation in the region. This implies to explain that Levantine Arabic has no official status and to list for each country where Levantine Arabic is spoken what is/are the other official language(s).

I hope we'll be able to reach consensus on these two remaining points. What do you think @SarahFatimaK, Boynamedsue, AdrianAbdulBaha, Nehme1499, and WatanWatan2020:?

A455bcd9 (talk) 15:06, 22 September 2021 (UTC)

Looks good to me.AdrianAbdulBaha (talk) 07:40, 23 September 2021 (UTC)

Thanks Adrian,

I think we have a consensus of the majority of contributors (Boynamedsue, AdrianAbdulBaha, and me, and no opposition) on #4 (second row in the above table).

On #2 (first row in the above table) however, it seems that Boynamedsue would prefer "Levantine, is a sprachbund of vernacular Arabic indigenous to the Levant, that is, in present-day..." (no mention of ethnicity) compared to my suggestion ("Levantine, is a sprachbund of vernacular Arabic indigenous to the Levant. It is spoken by Arabs and other ethnic groups who live in present-day..."). I'm satisfied with both versions. As the ethnicity is in the infobox (it was added back by WatanWatan2020 and I updated the field with sources, so I think we have reached consensus on this information), backed by reliable sources, it would make sense to mention it as well in the summary. What do you think @Boynamedsue:?

In the absence of opposition, I plan to implement the suggested changes in 10 days (Sunday Oct 10th). (Was recommended to me on #wikipedia-en-help where I've just asked for help :) ) What do you think about the proposed modifications @WatanWatan2020:? A455bcd9 (talk) 12:17, 30 September 2021 (UTC)

I don't see it as a massive issue, I prefer not entering into the question of ethnic groups at all in that position, as it raises the question "which groups?" which is not necessary that early, imo. But I will go with the majority. Boynamedsue (talk) 13:44, 30 September 2021 (UTC)

Hello. The reasons for both #2 and #4 make little sense. It negates critical facts on the ground. Therefore, it warrants 0 change to be made to the current version. Here are the reasons:

For #2, there is no rationale whatsoever in removing the fact that Levantine Arabic is native to Arab countries and communities within the levant. It is because of the Arab countries, Arab communities, and the Arab people in general that Levantine Arabic exists here. Also, In the region exists non-Arab countries. For a vague statement like “Levantine Arabic is indigenous to the Levant” may imply to a reader that the language is native to all countries and communities within it; this is flat out wrong. It is imperative to be clear about the nativity of the language. In general, The statement itself is a matter of fact.

The claim made by @A455bcd9: that “Levantine Arabic is spoken natively by some Arabs in the Levant, not all of them” is flat out wrong. Levantine Arabic is spoken by most, the overwhelming majority of Arabs in the Levant. What do the Syrians speak? The Lebanese? The Jordanians? The Palestinians? They speak Levantine Arabic, the overwhelming majority of them. Mesopotamian Arabic is Iraqi Arabic, so, is it erroneously being implied that the Arabs of these nations are speaking Iraqi Arabic in majority? Of course this isn’t the case so why even imply it? Badawi Arabic is primarily spoken by the Bedouin Arabs, they are a minority.

The other claim made by @A455bcd9: regarding #2 in which he mentions other ethnic groups for his reasoning absolutely does not negate that Levantine Arabic is native to Arab Countries and Communities within the Levant. Both Circassians and Armenians are a minority, *within Arab countries*. The Armenian language is still spoken as the primary and native language of the Armenians in the levant, and Levantine Arabic as their second language. And regarding the reference to Jews in Israel, obviously they do not speak Levantine Arabic. Some may have learned it to communicate with the Palestinians. But just because they don’t speak it does not mean other ethnic groups should be negated for it; obviously other ethnic groups exist and their status matters, yes? The statement “Levantine Arabic is also used as a lingua franca by other ethnic groups within the region” is in reference to the Armenians and Circassians as well as Chechens. Even some Jews who have learned it to communicate with the Palestinians fall under the lingua franca category.

Now, #4 For #4, It is unnecessary and uncalled for to make any changes to it. For one, the current version looks clean, organized, and is in proper grammatical sequence. Second, If you look at the proposed version, in its second sentence, it provides conflicting information. For example, “in the frame of the general diglossia status of the Arab world, Levantine is used by Arabs for daily spoken use, while in Jordan, Lebanon, Palestine, and Syria”… There should be no “while in Jordan” etc. Because what is previous to it implies Levantine is spoken for daily use by Arabs throughout the Arab world (which is wrong as Arabs of different regions speak a different variety) and that the mention of “while in Jordan, Syria” etc. would imply there is something different being spoken in these countries. The current version makes it very clear as to what’s going on in these countries in relation to Levantine Arabic and MSA. The attempt to add that Hebrew is the main language of Israel and Turkish of Turkey is completely unwarranted, especially in the summary. This is because in the beginning of the summary, it clearly indicates who Levantine Arabic is spoken by. The Arabs. Whether they are in Turkey or whether they are in Israel. There shouldn’t be even a discussion about this, it is not relevant in any way to the article, and besides, this proposed statement is clearly mentioned below. Therefore, it already exists and should be left there.

To add one more thing, In the proposed version by @A455bcd9 , it is written “In Israel, Hebrew is the main language used in the public sphere, while MSA has "a special status"… This statement is extremely vague. It does not indicate that Hebrew is the native language of the Jews or the official language of Israel, and, saying that it is used in the public sphere is a negation of its actual role. It is used in the public sphere, private sphere, in everyday functions by the Jews. So, it isn’t just used in the Public Sphere. But to mention again, none of this has relevance in this article. At most, It already exists somewhere below.

In Summary, there is no logical rationale whatsoever in trying to change the current version to what is being proposed. Levantine Arabic is native to Arab countries and communities within the Levant and is a matter of fact, as well as more clear information to the reader. Also, the mentioning of other countries and their languages, especially in the summary is unwarranted. Finally, small minority groups adopting Levantine Arabic over their native languages and/or learning it as a second language to communicate with the Arabs in the region can never negate the nativity of the language to the Arabs and their countries/communities.

- This all raises a question as well: Should Israel, Turkey and Egypt be removed from the native template? I believe it should be as Levantine Arabic is not native to these countries. Rather, it is native to a smaller component of them and should be listed only under the geographic distribution section below. At the very least, in the summary box on the right, there should be a section implemented like "minority language in" or "spoken as minority in" or "non-native countries" where it lists the 3 along with the sub information that exists with it currently.

PS: @A455bcd9 I have already compromised with you and agreed to let you implement the information without further opposition. Why aren't you compromising with me? Why is it that you still want to tug and pull on this article? You are continuously pursuing the same old habit of having it your way, even trying to contend with information in the article which is clear as the blue sky. Just by viewing the logs list on this article, you add and subtract more than any user, by a far far margin. I have no issue with it. Why is it that every time I publish something, you come and delete or dispute it. If I re-publish my deleted edits, it turns into an edit war. Then you go and report me to the admins. That doesn't work out, so now you come and create consensus to get your way. Just relax. Lets be even here for own sakes and for the sake of the article.

Adding other contributors who made changes here. What do you think? @Al Ameer son @SarahFatimaK @Gowhk8

WatanWatan2020 (talk) 14:50, 6 October 2021 (UTC)

Hi @WatanWatan2020:,

Thanks for your answer.

As you know, Wikipedia requires citations of Wikipedia:Reliable sources for any material challenged or likely to be challenged. So could you please provide reliable sources? Indeed, statements such as "The statement itself is a matter of fact." are not sufficient to add content to Wikipedia.

Here are the main sources on Levantine Arabic (there are not a lot, so I think I almost listed them all) and how they describe this variety in their introduction (+ data from Ethnologue):

Sources

Ethnologue:
- Map of North Levantine: all the eastern part of Syria is excluded
- Mao of South Levantine: all the eastern part of Jordan and the southern part of Israel are excluded
- Jordan: 10,102,000 inhabitants:
  - 5,560,000 (55%) South Levantine speakers;
  - 1,110,000 (11%) Bedawi speakers;
  - 1,000,000 (10%) Mesopotamian speakers;
  - 404,000 (4%) North Mesopotamian speakers;
  - 101,000 (1%) Najdi speakers
- Syria: 17,070,000 inhabitants
  - 14,700,000 (86%) North Levantine speakers
  - 1,320,000 (8%) Najdi speakers
  - 300,000 (2%) North Mesopotamian speakers
  - 76,600 (0.5%) Bedawi speakers
  - 53,200 (0.3%) Mesopotamian speakers
- Israel: 8,675,000 inhabitants
  - 1,430,000 South Levantine speakers
  - 121,000 Bedawi speakers
  - 94,000 Judeo-Iraqi Arabic speakers
  - 53,000 Judeo-Moroccan Arabic speakers
Al-Masri 2015: "This book is dedicated to Levantine Arabic (LA), a dialect spoken in present-day Syria, Lebanon, Palestine, Jordan and Israel. While LA is the general term to refer to this dialect region, there are also other sub-classifications based on political boundaries, (Shami or Syrian, Lebanese, Palestinian and Jordanian), or based on socio-cultural classifications (urban, rural and Bedouin)."
Cowell 1964: "The language described in this book is Arabic as it is used in everyday conversation by educated city-dwelling Syrians, and most particularly by natives of Damascus. The spoken Arabic of Damascus is much like that of other cities in the western parts of Syria and in Palestine and Lebanon (for instance Beirut, Jerusalem, Aleppo). From a practical standpoint all the urban dialects of "the Syrian area" or "Greater Syria" - as we shall call this region - may be considered variants of one language which we call "Syrian Arabic"."
Aldrich 2017: "Levantine Colloquial Arabic is an umbrella term for the continuum of dialects spoken in Lebanon, Syria, Palestine, Israel, and Jordan, a region collectively known as the Levant."
Brustad & Zuniga 2019: "Levantine Arabic (LA) is best described as a dialect bundle whose varieties are spoken across the Levant, in lands currently known as Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, Palestinian territories and Israel, as well as parts of Southern Turkey, in particular in the provinces of Mersin and Hatay (Map 16.1)."
Lentin 2018, "The Levant" in Arabic Historical Dialectology: Linguistic and Sociolinguistic Approaches: "The dialects concerned were and are spoken in Lebanon, Syria, Israel, Palestine, Jordan, a part of southern Turkey, and one village in Cyprus, to use the modern state names. They belong mainly to the Syro-Lebanese group, as it is traditionally labelled, but other groups are also found in the area, which is far from being linguistically homogeneous: Shāwi dialects, north Arabian ‘bedouin’ dialects (especially the north-west Arabian sub-group in the Sinai, the Negev, and southern Jordan, see Palva 2008a: 400), Mesopotamian dialects, and Anatolian dialects spoken by migrants who settled in the north-east of Syria a century ago."
Al-Wer, Jong 2017, "Dialects of Arabic" in The Handbook of Dialectology: "Syro‐Lebanese Dialects of the Levant: At a general level, the Levant can be subdivided into three main dialect groups (Versteegh 1997): Lebanon and central Syria (including those of Beirut and Damascus); Northern Syria (including that of Aleppo); Palestine and Jordan (including the Horan region). Northern coastal dialects stretch from Lebanon through Syria into the Turkish Hatay province; more are found along the Mediterranean Turkish coast as language islands in Cilicia and Antiochia (Antakya)."
Al-Wer 2008: "As in the rest of the Arab world, standard Arabic is not ordinarily used for everyday spoken purposes by any sector of the population. It stands in a diglossic relation to the spoken Arabic dialects (e.g. Egyptian Arabic), and to other languages spoken in the region (e. g. Armenian in Lebanon), very much along the lines explained by Ferguson (1959). The spoken Arabic varieties along with the minority languages are not given official recognition. The Levantine countries occupy an area of some 290000 sq. km, stretching from the southern parts of ancient Anatolia in the north to the approaches of the Arab Peninsula in the south, and from the shores of the Mediterranean in the west to the Syro-Arabian desert in the east. [...] In Israel, the situation and status of Arabic is a good deal more complex. While an estimated one million native speakers of Palestinian Arabic (mainly of the South Levantine type) have either been displaced, or have emigrated since the establishment of the State of Israel in 1948, half a million (Jewish) Arabic-speaking immigrants have arrived since then. These immigrants are speakers of Judeo-Iraqi Arabic, or of Moroccan, Tripolitanian, Tunisian, or Yemeni Arabic dialects. These and the remaining 1.1 million Moslem and Christian Palestinians constitute the Arabic-speaking communities in Israel (about 20% of the total population). Standard Arabic is considered one of the official languages, and is used, as a medium of instruction in Arab schools. [...] In terms of dialectal variation, three major Arabic dialect groups are represented within Syria. In the north eastern region (bordering Iraq) dialects of the Mesopotamian group are spoken, and the rest of the Syrian desert in the east is of Najdi Peninsular Arabic type. In the rest of the country varieties of North and South Levantine Arabic are spoken, which can be distinguished from one another by a number of features. [...] [In Lebanon] It is estimated that 20% of the population use French in their daily lives, and 60 % can read and write it. The most important ethnic and linguistic minority group in Lebanon is the Armenian community, who account for 6% of the population. The Armenians are generally bilingual in Armenian and Arabic. [In Jordan] The most important ethnic and linguistic minority group is the Circassians, who estimate the size of their community to be in the region of 60000. Circassian has been undergoing shift in favour of Jordanian Arabic, with only 16% of the younger Circassian generation reporting some competence in the ethnic language, although there is a secondary school where Circassian is taught as a subject. The second minority language is Chechen-Ingush (also a North Caucasian language, of the eastern type), spoken by some 10000 people. In contrast to Circassian, Chechen appears to be in a stable bilingual situation with Jordanian Arabic. [...] Jordanian Arabic is classified into two major dialect groups. Broadly speaking, the eastern and southern dialects are classified as Najdi (belonging to Arabia), and have fewer speakers than the northern and north-western dialects, which are classified as (southern) Levantine (see Cleveland 1963). [In Palestine] The population is estimated at 2.4 million, the majority of whom are native speakers of Palestinian Arabic. Hebrew is spoken by the 250000 or so Jewish settlers, and by some Palestinians."
Versteegh 2014 "11.2 Syro-Lebanese dialects" in The Arabic language: "Because of the abundance of material, there is more or less a consensus about the classification of the dialects between the Mediterranean and the Syrian desert. Usually, all sedentary dialects in the area covering Lebanon, Syria, Jordan and Palestine are assigned to this group, the Bedouin dialects of the Syrian desert belonging to the dialects of the Arabian peninsula. In north-east Syria, dialects of the qǝltu group of Mesopotamian dialects are spoken (e.g., the dialect of Dēr iz-Zōr). Across the border with Turkey, in the former district of Iskenderun (Alexandretta), the present-day province of Hatay, a dialect is spoken that is a continuation of the Syrian dialect area."

Regarding #2, you wrote: "The claim made by @A455bcd9: that “Levantine Arabic is spoken natively by some Arabs in the Levant, not all of them” is flat out wrong." It is true that the majority of Arabs in the Levant speak Levantine Arabic. However, as you can see from the above sources, a significant number of Arabs in the Levant do not speak Levantine Arabic; especially in Jordan and in the East of Syria. Many Arabs in the Turkish part of the Levant today do not speak any Arabic at all.

You also wrote: "The Armenian language is still spoken as the primary and native language of the Armenians in the levant, and Levantine Arabic as their second language." However, according to Language shift among the Armenians of Jordan this is not the case.

The statement "Levantine Arabic is also used as a lingua franca by other ethnic groups within the region" is unfortunately not backed by any source. In particular, Levantine Arabic is not a lingua franca in Israel, nor is it in the South of Turkey. It is not a lingua franca either among Jewish settlers living in Palestine and in the Golan Heights. So could you please provide a source to back this claim? Otherwise, I'm afraid we have to remove it. I tried to find sources for that but when I searched for "lingua franca" in the Levant in Google books I actually mostly found sources mentioning French as the lingua franca in Lebanon and among Arabic-speaking Jews (coming from the Maghreb) and Christians! See: [1], [2], [3])

You wrote: "“Levantine Arabic is indigenous to the Levant” may imply to a reader that the language is native to all countries and communities within it" => this is a good point. That's why we could follow the above sources (Al-Masri, Aldrich, Lentin) and simply use "spoken" instead of indigenous (none of the sources use this term). This would give us:

Suggestion #2b: "Levantine, is a sprachbund of vernacular Arabic spoken by Arabs and other ethnic groups in the Levant, that is in present-day Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, Palestine, Israel, and Turkey (provinces of Mersin and Hatay)."

Because none of the above sources mention the ethnicity of speakers in the introduction, and as suggested by Boynamedsue, we could do the same, which would give:

Suggestion #2c: "Levantine, is a sprachbund of vernacular Arabic spoken in the Levant, that is in present-day Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, Palestine, Israel, and Turkey (provinces of Mersin and Hatay)."

(In the above two suggestions, I removed Egypt, see below for the explanation)

Regarding #4, you're right: the version I suggested is not fluid. Here's a new suggestion, which is a mix between your version (I copied/pasted it) and my suggestion. In particular, the current version does not mention the status of Arabic among Arab communities in Israel:

Suggestion #4b: "Levantine is not officially recognized in any state or territory. In the frame of the general diglossia status of the Arab world, Levantine is used by Arabs for daily spoken use in Jordan, Lebanon, Palestine, and Syria while most of the written and official documents and media within these countries use Modern Standard Arabic (MSA), a form of formal Arabic which is nobody's native language and is only acquired through formal education. In Israel and Turkey, Levantine Arabic is a minority language. In Israel, Hebrew is the only official language, while MSA has "a special status." In Turkey, only Turkish has official status."

You raised another issue: "Should Israel, Turkey and Egypt be removed from the native template?" => Egypt should be removed (I'll do it now) because there's only one source backing this claim. Israel and Turkey should not because we added "Arab communities" for Israel and the Arabic speaking regions (Hatay and Mersin) for Turkey, as the academic sources above did. To make things clearer I'll add a link to "Arab communities" and add "only" for the Turkish regions.

What do you think WatanWatan2020?

You're right, it would be great to know other contributors' opinions. poke @SarahFatimaK and Hurayshi: :) A455bcd9 (talk) 11:27, 7 October 2021 (UTC)

As suggested by WatanWatan2020, and because it was not backed by reliable sources, I removed Egypt (Arish) from the list of places where Levantine is spoken in these two edits. A455bcd9 (talk) 13:27, 7 October 2021 (UTC)

I don’t why you list Israel and its population of 8 million plus. Israel has nothing to do with Levantine Arabic, neither does the majority of its population as they are Jews, not Arabs. Again, this also indicates that Levantine Arabic is not native to the state of Israel and should be removed from the native template, as well as Turkey. At the most, they are to be added under a sub-category as I suggested in my previous post. It could be “minority language in:” But to make reference to the numbers you have listed, it goes to prove my point that the majority of the Arabs in the levant speak Levantine Arabic.

You seem to continuously, and purposely, miss the main point in all of this. The main point is that Levantine Arabic is indigenous to Arab countries and communities within the Levant. Without Arab countries and communities in this region, there would be no Arabic, let alone Levantine Arabic. The other minority ethnic groups who speak Levantine Arabic as an adopted or second language, do so WHILE living in ARAB COUNTRIES or near ARAB COMMUNITIES. It is imperative to be clear that Levantine Arabic is native to Arab countries and communities within the levant. It is spoken first and foremost, and primarily, by the Arabs within the Levant. The addition of other ethnic groups speaking it is a matter after this primary fact.

Again, this is getting ridiculous. There is absolutely no reason whatsoever to even attempt to challenge this. I’ve repeated myself time and time again yet you continuously want to tug and pull against facts. 0 reason to change it. The way it is, is the way it should be.

- Main thing that should be changed is listing Israel and Turkey under a sub category as Levantine Arabic is not native to these two countries**.

WatanWatan2020 (talk) 23:41, 8 October 2021 (UTC)

Hi @WatanWatan2020:,

Thanks for your answer. Again, please provide Wikipedia:Reliable sources to back your claims.

Ethnologue and academic sources mention that Levantine is spoken in parts of Turkey and Israel so that's why they are in the infobox. There is unfortunately no way today to add "minority language in". As you can see in Template:Infobox language the "minority" field is only for "list of countries in which it is a recognised/protected minority language. This is intended for legal protection and similar de jure recognition, not simply being listed on a census and other de facto recognition." As Levantine Arabic is not legally recognized in Israel and Turkey, we cannot use this field.

You wrote: "Main thing that should be changed is listing Israel and Turkey under a sub category as Levantine Arabic is not native to these two countries" => This is already the case as it is specified that Levantine is native to "Arab communities" only in Israel and to some regions in Turkey. I'll add "Arab-minority" to the infobox to make things even clearer.

(Also, please note that according to sources cited in the article, Levantine Arabic is (or used to be) also native to some Jews, especially Syrian Jews and Turkish Jews in Çukurova.)

You wrote: "It is imperative to be clear that Levantine Arabic is native to Arab countries and communities within the levant. It is spoken first and foremost, and primarily, by the Arabs within the Levant. The addition of other ethnic groups speaking it is a matter after this primary fact." => Yes that's why I added "Arabs" in the "Ethnicity" field in the infobox and that's why I suggested to write: "Levantine, is a sprachbund of vernacular Arabic spoken by Arabs and other ethnic groups in the Levant" Are you satisfied by this version?

Because you don't say specifically what you oppose in the suggested versions and because you don't suggest any alternative it is hard to discuss with you. For instance in Suggestion #4 I copied/pasted your own paragraph and then added "Levantine is not officially recognized in any state or territory." before and "In Israel and Turkey, Levantine Arabic is a minority language. In Israel, Hebrew is the only official language, while MSA has "a special status." In Turkey, only Turkish has official status." after but you don't say why you disagree with this change.

A majority of contributors (Boynamedsue, AdrianAbdulBaha, and me) approved the suggested changes. The other main contributors are Nehme1499 who said: "The most important thing is that everything is well-sourced by reliable sources, and that it's all written from a NPOV" and SarahFatimaK. So far you haven't provided any reliable sources for the sentence "Levantine Arabic is also used as a lingua franca by other ethnic groups within the region.". Regarding SarahFatimaK: I talked to her outside Wikipedia and she's now focused on working on Levantine Arabic entries on Wiktionary. [However, because we worked together to improve this article before I assume she was okay with the previous wording before your modifications.]

Anyway, you oppose the proposed changes but do not provide reliable sources to back your claims and a majority of contributors are in favor of these changes. Therefore, unless you provide new relevant arguments, well-sourced by reliable sources, I will implement the proposed changes.

Best, A455bcd9 (talk) 08:14, 9 October 2021 (UTC)

Also @WatanWatan2020: in Suggestion #4b above please note that I proposed to add "In Israel and Turkey, Levantine Arabic is a minority language.", in line with your suggestion that "At the most, they [Israel and Turkey] are to be added under a sub-category as I suggested in my previous post. It could be “minority language in:”"

Are you satisfied with this wording? If not, could you please explain why you oppose this change and propose an alternative working? A455bcd9 (talk) 08:56, 9 October 2021 (UTC)

Here's a summary of the proposed modifications. Differences between the two versions are highlighted in yellow. A455bcd9 (talk) 09:09, 9 October 2021 (UTC)

Suggested modifications
Point	Current version	Proposed version
#2b	Levantine Arabic, also called Shami (autonym: شامي‎ šāmi, or Arabic: اللَّهْجَةُ الشَّامِيَّة, il-lahje š-šāmiyye),^[5] or simply Levantine, is a sprachbund^[6] of vernacular Arabic indigenous to Arab countries and communities within the Levant. It is spoken by the Arabs who live in present-day Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, Palestine, Israel, and Turkey (Arab minorities in the provinces of Adana, Mersin and Hatay only).^[10] It is also spoken by members of the Arab diaspora coming from this region, most significantly among the Palestinian, Lebanese, and Syrian diasporas.^[12] Levantine Arabic is also used as a lingua franca by other ethnic groups within the region.	Levantine Arabic, also called Shami (autonym: شامي‎ šāmi, or Arabic: اللَّهْجَةُ الشَّامِيَّة, il-lahje š-šāmiyye),^[5] or simply Levantine, is a sprachbund^[6] of vernacular Arabic spoken by Arabs and other ethnic groups within the Levant, that is in present-day Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, Palestine, Israel, and Turkey (Arab minorities in the provinces of Adana, Mersin and Hatay only).^[10] It is also spoken by members of the Arab diaspora coming from this region, most significantly among the Palestinian, Lebanese, and Syrian diasporas.^[13]
#4c	In the frame of the general diglossia status of the Arab world, Levantine is used by Arabs for daily spoken use in Jordan, Lebanon, Palestine, and Syria while most of the written and official documents and media within these countries use Modern Standard Arabic (MSA), a form of formal Arabic which is nobody's native language and is only acquired through formal education.^[2]	Levantine is not officially recognized in any state or territory.^[1] In the frame of the general diglossia status of the Arab world, Levantine is used by Arabs for daily spoken use in Jordan, Lebanon, Palestine, and Syria while most of the written and official documents and media within these countries use Modern Standard Arabic (MSA), a form of formal Arabic which is nobody's native language and is only acquired through formal education. In Israel and Turkey, Levantine Arabic is a minority language.^[2] In Israel, Hebrew is the only official language, while MSA has "a special status."^[3] In Turkey, the local Levantine dialect is endangered and only Turkish has official status.^[4]

Hi. Nothing should/will be changed, especially information that is clear as the blue sky. It is you that have proposed changes based on illogical reasoning and argument, therefore it is better of me to be asking you to come up with better reasons and/or argument in regard to this matter. I see that you mentioned that you are confused on whether I oppose your suggestions and added if I can address the points you are making, whether I agree with them or not. My response is: I am not sure why you are not seeing that I am clearly opposed to it, and that I made clear statements above, time and time again. Maybe read it at a slower pace to better grasp what I have been saying for the longest time, please.

But you keep turning a blind eye to the fact that “Levantine Arabic is indigenous to Arab countries and communities within the Levant”. This statement is something you continue to completely ignore in your propositions. This is a statement that no argument could be made for to remove it. Why is this bothering you? Are you attempting to distance the language from the Arabs? Is it a case of cultural appropriation here? This is what I suspect.

To address the recent points you made: Point #2b. in regards to this matter, you made an earlier post stating “I don't disagree with it, but you have to provide a source that Levantine is a "lingua franca" in the region”. Since you don’t disagree with it, and I am sure you know what lingua franca means, and which happens to be the factual representation of other ethnic groups’ relation to Levantine Arabic in the region, then why harass me on the matter? Obviously, we both know what the answer is. And its not because you are looking for every edit to have a source backing it, otherwise you yourself wouldn’t be implementing material on here without sources backing it up. (Not saying that you don’t, just not all the time). But here, to compromise yet again, the statement has been removed and replaced with a statement that is sourced. To add icing on the cake, the sources are yours too and it reflects what you implemented in the ethnicity box as you can see.

Point #4. Again, neither Hebrew/Israel or Turkish/Turkey have relevance in the lead. At most, it is already added with description in the bottom under “status and usage”. This is all because the prior statements point out that Levantine Arabic revolves around the Arabs and Arab countries. Neither Turkey or Israel are Arab countries. The edit to the “native” template in the summary box will reflect that as well. Also, the part where you mention “Levantine is not officially recognized in any country” is there under “status and usage” as well, where it should be only.

Now, I edited the summary box to reflect accurately where Levantine Arabic is Native to, and where it is native for minorities only.I also deleted the underlined parts in this statement “'Arab minorities in the provinces of Adana, Mersin and Hatay only” as the sentence that this is written in already begins off with “It is spoken by the Arabs in” …so its already indicating the Arabs are speaking it in here; no need to mention it twice. Finally, and as I mentioned earlier, what you were having issue with and contesting, point #2, I removed that and added a statement with sources, yours, that is also reflective of the statement in the ethnicity box. This will indicate the other ethnic groups status with Levantine, and is in the place where it should be.

Thanks. WatanWatan2020 (talk) 14:24, 9 October 2021 (UTC)

Hi @WatanWatan2020:,

Thanks for your quick answer.

Please it's not you against me: the majority of other contributors agree with the version I proposed. That's why I asked you to provide arguments to back your point of view. We should be able to find consensus :)

Also, while we are discussing here it would be polite to propose changes before implementing them. Anyway, you removed the "lingua franca" part and it's good because it was incorrect and not backed by any source. You'll notice that in this article every single assertion is backed by a reliable source. So the current version is better: thanks, we're progressing! :)

Regarding Israel and Turkey: they are mentioned by all reliable sources, so we have to mention there as well in both the infobox and the summary, that's it. There's no reason not to do so. Unless you find a reliable source to do so. You wrote that "This is all because the prior statements point out that Levantine Arabic revolves around the Arabs and Arab countries. Neither Turkey or Israel are Arab countries." => But that's precisely the issue, according to academic sources Levantine is also native to non-Arab countries: Turkey and Israel. You may consider that this is wrong but it is still what reliable sources tell. So we have to respect that.

Coming back to the two contentious points:

Point 2: the issue is that it is factually wrong (and all the above reliable sources confirm it) that "[Levantine Arabic] is spoken by the Arabs who live in present-day Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, Palestine, Israel, and Turkey". Indeed, many Arabs in the region do not speak Levantine. That's why I and other contributors suggested to at least remove "the" before Arabs to make clear that some Arabs in the Levant (and especially in Syria, Jordan, and Turkey) do not speak Levantine Arabic. What is your answer to that point?
Point 4: Levantine Arabic is spoken in Israel and Turkey (according to reliable academic sources) so if we mention the status of Levantine Arabic in Syria, Palestine, Jordan, and Lebanon there is no reason not to mention the status of Levantine Arabic in Israel and Turkey. Academic sources (such as Al-Wer 2008) similarly mention the status of Arabic in these two countries (see above). Yes, the information is also under “status and usage” below but the point of a summary is precisely to summarize the main points of an article. And it is customary for languages articles to mention in the summary the status of the language in the region where it is spoken. So:
- Why do you oppose mentioning that "Levantine is not officially recognized in any state or territory.", even though reliable sources mention it?
- Why do you oppose mentioning that "In Israel and Turkey, Levantine Arabic is a minority language.", even though you want to add this information in the infobox?
- Why do you oppose mentioning that "In Israel, Hebrew is the only official language, while MSA has "a special status.""?
- Why do you oppose mentioning that "In Turkey, the local Levantine dialect is endangered and only Turkish has official status."?

You edited the infobox but your edit did not respect the recommended usage of Template:Infobox language so I reverted it.

Kind regards, A455bcd9 (talk) 19:39, 9 October 2021 (UTC)

I saw you requested other contributors' opinion: good idea. I suggest we wait a few days for their answer before we make any edit to the article. A455bcd9 (talk) 20:56, 9 October 2021 (UTC)

You will not get to dictate when to edit and when not to edit. You have been editing this page during this discussion almost everyday. Again you take issue with whenever i make edits; you then go and delete them almost everytime.

I will not be answering your ridiculous and repetitive questions any further as it is an attempt by you to keep getting compromises out of me; i have made multiple compromises already and you have made 0. literally 0. per WP consensus, its not about you getting numbers on your side and in turning this into a competition. in other words its not about “unanimity nor is it the result of a vote”.

You are also not looking for a solution. You are employing these tactics and continue to ask these repetitive questions which i answered multiple times, acting as if you are blind to the answers i gave to your questions in previous posts.

For the final time, Levantine Arabic is spoken first and foremost, and primarily by the Arabs in the Levant; the overwhelming majority of them. Even if they all spoke it, or a majority of them as is the case, the point is that it is Arabs who speak it originally and revolves around them.

You are POV pushing here, and like i mentioned before, you are trying to distance Levantine Arabic from the Arabs, sort of culturally appropriating from them. this is vicious, uncalled for, and should be called out immediately.

Do not touch the template box. Do not touch my edits. Do not start another edit war.

WatanWatan2020 (talk) 01:00, 10 October 2021 (UTC)

And to add AdrianAbdulTaha was not opposed to point #2 from much earlier. You were the one who quipped “lets leave it open to discussion” since you didnt get the answer you wanted. This goes to show you are not really looking for a consensus, and take to others’ concerns serious in this discussion, rather, you are hoping that you get answers supporting your proposed changes so you can continue to implement your edits in line with your POV pushing. So there is no “majority” on your side here either, as you erroneously claimed. WatanWatan2020 (talk) 01:19, 10 October 2021 (UTC)

Hi @WatanWatan2020:,

Please be polite and respectful so that we can reach consensus :) Calling me "vicious" doesn't help.

I don't dictate when to edit and when not to edit, I only kindly asked you not to do so for a few days. Yes, I've been editing this page during this discussion, but not on the contentious points we are talking about here. I only edited others points OR points I thought we both (and other contributors) agreed on.

I did make compromises. For instance, I added "spoken by Arabs" in the summary (point 2) and I copy-pasted your current version in the version I suggested (point 4). But in any case consensus is not about compromise. The most important is still to rely on reliable sources.

I asked you question because I do not understand your opposition. For instance you maintain that Levantine Arabic is a minority language in Israel and Turkey (it's true), you add it to the infobox (shouldn't be there), but when I offer to add it to the summary, you refuse: why? I don't get it.

Yes, Levantine Arabic is spoken primarily by Arabs in the Levant. No one denies this. And I added this information in the infobox (and you then removed it by mistake...). So what do you think about this version then? I clearly wrote the "Levantine Arabic is primarily spoken by Arabs" and then I copy-pasted your own sentence "Levantine Arabic is also spoken as a first or second language by other ethnic groups in the region." In this case first we talk about the geographic region (the Levant and the modern countries) and then about the ethnicity of speakers (mostly Arabs and then some ethnic minorities).

Suggested modifications
Point	Current version	Proposed version
#2d	Levantine Arabic, also called Shami (autonym: شامي‎ šāmi, or Arabic: اللَّهْجَةُ الشَّامِيَّة, il-lahje š-šāmiyye),^[5] or simply Levantine, is a sprachbund^[6] of vernacular Arabic indigenous to Arab countries and communities within the Levant. It is spoken by the Arabs who live in present-day Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, Palestine, Israel, and Turkey (Adana, Mersin and Hatay only).^[10] It is also spoken by members of the Arab diaspora coming from this region, most significantly among the Palestinian, Lebanese, and Syrian diasporas.^[14] Levantine Arabic is also spoken as a first or second language by other ethnic groups in the region.^[10]	Levantine Arabic, also called Shami (autonym: شامي‎ šāmi, or Arabic: اللَّهْجَةُ الشَّامِيَّة, il-lahje š-šāmiyye),^[5] or simply Levantine, is a sprachbund^[6] of vernacular Arabic spoken within the Levant, that is in present-day Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, Palestine, Israel, and Turkey (Adana, Mersin and Hatay only).^[10] Levantine Arabic is primarily spoken by Arabs and it is also spoken as a first or second language by other ethnic groups in the region.^[10] It is also spoken by members of the Arab diaspora coming from this region, most significantly among the Palestinian, Lebanese, and Syrian diasporas.^[15]
#4d	In the frame of the general diglossia status of the Arab world, Levantine is used by Arabs for daily spoken use in Jordan, Lebanon, Palestine, and Syria while most of the written and official documents and media within these countries use Modern Standard Arabic (MSA), a form of formal Arabic which is nobody's native language and is only acquired through formal education.^[2]	Levantine is not officially recognized in any state or territory.^[1] In the frame of the general diglossia status of the Arab world, Levantine is used by Arabs for daily spoken use in Jordan, Lebanon, Palestine, and Syria while most of the written and official documents and media within these countries use Modern Standard Arabic (MSA), a form of formal Arabic which is nobody's native language and is only acquired through formal education. In Israel and Turkey, Levantine Arabic is a minority language.^[2] In Israel, Hebrew is the only official language, while MSA has "a special status."^[3] In Turkey, the local Levantine dialect is endangered and only Turkish has official status.^[4]
#10	Template:Infobox_language: states = Jordan, Lebanon, Palestine, Syria Native to minority in: Israel (Arab communities) Turkey (Arab minorities in Adana, Hatay and Mersin provinces only)	Template:Infobox_language: states = Israel (Arab communities), Jordan, Lebanon, Palestine, Syria, Turkey (Arab minorities in Adana, Hatay and Mersin provinces only)

Regarding the infobox, it doesn't respect Template:Infobox language so we'll have to change it anyway.

(I talk with AdrianAbdulTaha outside Wikipedia, he answered "Looks good to me." to my latest proposal here and he's totally fine with the consensus reached and like me, he doesn't understand your opposition).

I would love to know @Al Ameer son:'s opinion as they are experienced.

A455bcd9 (talk) 07:06, 10 October 2021 (UTC)

I did not call you vicious, rather, i called your attempts to distance Levantine Arabic from the Arabs, similar to cultural appropriation, vicious and uncalled for. Please dont attempt to turn yourself into a victim now.

Again, you want to delete “Levantine Arabic is indigenous to Arab countries and communities within the Levant”. you have provided 0 reason for it, and no reason can be provided as this statement is a matter of fact. It is this statement that you take issue with the most in your POV pushing narrative, and language appropriation attempt.

Nothing is wrong with the template box either. You are taking issue with it for the same reasons you are taking issue with the other point.

Youve made 0 compromises. adding of “arabs” as ethnicity in the template box wasnt a compromise. You did it on your own, and you actually wrote “‘mostly arabs” until i changed it to arabs.

And no consensus has been reached; this is because you have made 0 compromises. Rather, you continue to attempt to get it your way each time. ive made compromises time and time again to reach a consensus. Everything is on record, especially by the posts above, and the edits in relation to it. Do not delete my edits. WatanWatan2020 (talk) 07:37, 10 October 2021 (UTC)

Hi @WatanWatan2020:,

Regarding the sentence “Levantine Arabic is indigenous to Arab countries and communities within the Levant” I provided reasons:

Reliable academic sources do not present the situation that way. None of them mention "Arab countries". They often don't mention the ethnicity of speakers.
Reliable academic sources first focus on the geographic region (the Levant) and, when they do so, they then explain the ethnicity of speakers. That's what I suggested in version #2d.
Otherwise having both "Levantine is indigenous to Arab countries and communities" and "Levantine is spoken by Arabs" is redundant in the summary which has to be short.
Also, the main issue is "It is spoken by the Arabs who live" as a significant part of Arabs in the Levant (especially in Turkey, Syria, and Jordan) do not speak Levantine Arabic.

The infobox remplate is not used as it should be. Please read the template documentation: Template:Infobox language. "states: countries in which it is mainly spoken." Please also have a look at examples on Template:Infobox language such as Persian language. You'll notice that the infobox only mentions countries, even those where the language is only spoken by a tiny minority (such as Russia). This is how this template should be used. Do you agree with that? Or did I misunderstand something in the documentation?

Consensus has been reached among the majority of contributors and you opposite it, which is your right of course :) We are now waiting for Al Ameer son's (or any other contributor's) opinion. If we don't find a consensus, we may have to use Wikipedia:Dispute resolution noticeboard then. But I hope we won't have to. A455bcd9 (talk) 07:50, 10 October 2021 (UTC)

Also @WatanWatan2020, please remember WP:NPA. Have a good day! A455bcd9 (talk) 08:05, 10 October 2021 (UTC)

That is not a proper reason. You yourself know that Levantine Arabic is indigenous to Arab countries and communities within the Levant. But obviously due to your own POV pushing, you do not want this to be included; again, it is in line with your attempt to culturally appropriate from the Levantine Arabs.

The template form is recommended; it is not a requirement. youve made multiple changes to it, and added long bits of information.

You are engaging in “Sealioning”. It means it “is a type of trolling or harassment that consists of pursuing people with persistent requests for evidence or repeated questions, while maintaining a pretense of civility and sincerity”. This is listed on Wikipedia itself; please check it.

Ive mentioned it a few times now that you have been harassing me with these repetitive questions and attempts at evidence in line with your POV pushing. I will not be entertaining you any further. Enough is enough.

One more thing to add, you cannot claim speaking to people outside of wikipedia is you reaching a consensus on a matter. This is an outrageous thought in itself. WatanWatan2020 (talk) 08:09, 10 October 2021 (UTC)

Hi,

I mentioned that I talked to AdrianAbdulBaha just to let you know but their opinion on the consensus is clear based on their message posted on September 23rd: "Looks good to me."

Thanks, I didn't know sealioning. I don't think I engaged in this type of behavior.

Anyway, because it seems that we cannot reach a consensus I suggest that we both refrain from editing this page while waiting for Al Ameer son (if they agree to look at this issue of course). What do you think? A455bcd9 (talk) 08:26, 10 October 2021 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not based on personal assertions that something is "clear as the blue sky", but on reliable sources that demonstrate a scholarly appraisal of the facts that prove something is "clear as the blue sky". Overall, I find in this discussion that User:WatanWatan2020 fails to understand that key foundation of Wikipedia. As a linguist, I find User:A455bcd9's edits to be reasonable, accurately worded, and supported by reliable sources. That should be the end of the discussion. Details of wording, especially in Point 2 can be fine-tuned, but statements such as "Levantine and MSA are not mutually intelligible" are perfectly accurate and necessary for readers who are not speakers of either Arabic language. There is a widespread perception in the non-Arab world that "Arabic is Arabic" and that all varieties are just local dialects or accents and not mutually unintelligible languages. Explicit statements should emphasize the fact that Arabs of the Levant practice diglossia on a daily basis between two mutually unintelligible languages depending on social situation. I find that all A455bcd9's edits are reasonable, necessary, and well-sourced. If WatanWatan2020 continues to use the unconstructive and accusatory tone that has been evidenced thus far, then a Request for Comment right here on the still contentious points might be a first step (short of moving to a more formal, and time-consuming) dispute resolution procedure. --TaivoLinguist (Taivo) (talk) 16:20, 10 October 2021 (UTC)

Thanks a lot @TaivoLinguist. FYI: I created a new thread below (but not an RFC) to simplify the discussion with new users and find a consensus. A455bcd9 (talk) 19:23, 10 October 2021 (UTC)

^ ^a ^b ^c ^d ^e Cite error: The named reference Hoigilt-8 was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
^ ^a ^b ^c ^d ^e ^f ^g ^h Cite error: The named reference Al-Wer was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
^ ^a ^b ^c ^d ^e Cite error: The named reference Amara 2017 p138 was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
^ ^a ^b ^c ^d ^e Cite error: The named reference EALL Antiochia Arabic was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
^ ^a ^b ^c ^d ^e ^f Cite error: The named reference Kwaik2018Shami was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
^ ^a ^b ^c ^d ^e ^f Al-Jallad, Ahmad (2012). Ancient Levantine Arabic: A Reconstruction Based on the Earliest Sources and the Modern Dialects. ProQuest LLC. ISBN 978-1-267-44507-0. Cite error: The named reference "Al-Jallad 2012 Reconstruction" was defined multiple times with different content (see the help page).
^ ^a ^b "12-AAC-eh "Syro-Palestinian"". Linguasphere. Retrieved 2021-07-17.
^ Al-Wer, Enam (2008-07-14). The Arabic-speaking Middle East. De Gruyter Mouton. doi:10.1515/9783110184181.3.9.1917/html. ISBN 978-3-11-019987-1.
^ McLoughlin, Leslie J. (2009). Colloquial Arabic (Levantine): [Syria, Lebanon, Palestine, Jordan] (2nd ed.). London: Routledge. pp. 5–6. ISBN 978-0-203-88074-6. OCLC 313867477.
^ ^a ^b ^c ^d ^e ^f ^g Cite error: The named reference Al-Wer 2008 The Arabic-speaking Middle East was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
^ McLoughlin, Leslie J. (2009). Colloquial Arabic (Levantine): [Syria, Lebanon, Palestine, Jordan] (2nd ed.). London: Routledge. pp. 5–6. ISBN 978-0-203-88074-6. OCLC 313867477.
^ McLoughlin, Leslie J. (2009). Colloquial Arabic (Levantine): [Syria, Lebanon, Palestine, Jordan] (2nd ed.). London: Routledge. pp. 5–6. ISBN 978-0-203-88074-6. OCLC 313867477.
^ McLoughlin, Leslie J. (2009). Colloquial Arabic (Levantine): [Syria, Lebanon, Palestine, Jordan] (2nd ed.). London: Routledge. pp. 5–6. ISBN 978-0-203-88074-6. OCLC 313867477.
^ McLoughlin, Leslie J. (2009). Colloquial Arabic (Levantine): [Syria, Lebanon, Palestine, Jordan] (2nd ed.). London: Routledge. pp. 5–6. ISBN 978-0-203-88074-6. OCLC 313867477.
^ McLoughlin, Leslie J. (2009). Colloquial Arabic (Levantine): [Syria, Lebanon, Palestine, Jordan] (2nd ed.). London: Routledge. pp. 5–6. ISBN 978-0-203-88074-6. OCLC 313867477.

[Hoigilt-8-1] Cite error: The named reference Hoigilt-8 was invoked but never defined (see the help page).

[Al-Wer-2] ^ ^a ^b ^c ^d ^e ^f ^g ^h Cite error: The named reference Al-Wer was invoked but never defined (see the help page).

[Amara_2017_p138-3] Cite error: The named reference Amara 2017 p138 was invoked but never defined (see the help page).

[EALL_Antiochia_Arabic-4] Cite error: The named reference EALL Antiochia Arabic was invoked but never defined (see the help page).

[Kwaik2018Shami-5] ^ ^a ^b ^c ^d ^e ^f Cite error: The named reference Kwaik2018Shami was invoked but never defined (see the help page).

[Al-Jallad_2012_Reconstruction-6] ^ ^a ^b ^c ^d ^e ^f Al-Jallad, Ahmad (2012). Ancient Levantine Arabic: A Reconstruction Based on the Earliest Sources and the Modern Dialects. ProQuest LLC. ISBN 978-1-267-44507-0. Cite error: The named reference "Al-Jallad 2012 Reconstruction" was defined multiple times with different content (see the help page).

[Linguasphere-7] "12-AAC-eh "Syro-Palestinian"". Linguasphere. Retrieved 2021-07-17.

[8] Al-Wer, Enam (2008-07-14). The Arabic-speaking Middle East. De Gruyter Mouton. doi:10.1515/9783110184181.3.9.1917/html. ISBN 978-3-11-019987-1.

[9] McLoughlin, Leslie J. (2009). Colloquial Arabic (Levantine): [Syria, Lebanon, Palestine, Jordan] (2nd ed.). London: Routledge. pp. 5–6. ISBN 978-0-203-88074-6. OCLC 313867477.

[Al-Wer_2008_The_Arabic-speaking_Middle_East-10] ^ ^a ^b ^c ^d ^e ^f ^g Cite error: The named reference Al-Wer 2008 The Arabic-speaking Middle East was invoked but never defined (see the help page).

[11] McLoughlin, Leslie J. (2009). Colloquial Arabic (Levantine): [Syria, Lebanon, Palestine, Jordan] (2nd ed.). London: Routledge. pp. 5–6. ISBN 978-0-203-88074-6. OCLC 313867477.

[12] McLoughlin, Leslie J. (2009). Colloquial Arabic (Levantine): [Syria, Lebanon, Palestine, Jordan] (2nd ed.). London: Routledge. pp. 5–6. ISBN 978-0-203-88074-6. OCLC 313867477.

[13] McLoughlin, Leslie J. (2009). Colloquial Arabic (Levantine): [Syria, Lebanon, Palestine, Jordan] (2nd ed.). London: Routledge. pp. 5–6. ISBN 978-0-203-88074-6. OCLC 313867477.

[14] McLoughlin, Leslie J. (2009). Colloquial Arabic (Levantine): [Syria, Lebanon, Palestine, Jordan] (2nd ed.). London: Routledge. pp. 5–6. ISBN 978-0-203-88074-6. OCLC 313867477.

[15] McLoughlin, Leslie J. (2009). Colloquial Arabic (Levantine): [Syria, Lebanon, Palestine, Jordan] (2nd ed.). London: Routledge. pp. 5–6. ISBN 978-0-203-88074-6. OCLC 313867477.

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