Talk:Les Petits Meurtres d'Agatha Christie

Copyright and referencing issues

Episode descriptions seem to be taken directly from IMDB and so would be in breach of their copyright unless permission has been / can be obtained. If not, they should be deleted. I also note the the long-standing "unreferenced" template attached to the article that we need to address.  ~ RLO1729^💬 08:06, 13 April 2020 (UTC)

Removed "unreferenced" template as article does now have sources, though further sources are still needed but this can be identified in-text.  ~ RLO1729^💬 10:22, 13 April 2020 (UTC)

Just a heads-up that I am intending to delete the episode descriptions as probable copyright violations. I'll give it a few more days then go ahead unless there is good reason not to. Alternative, original descriptions would be very welcome.  ~ RLO1729^💬 03:01, 15 April 2020 (UTC)

Possibly because I've been spending more time on the French rather than English Wiki entries for this series, where the descriptions are lifted from copyrighted France Television pages, lifting from IMDB doesn't bother me as much as that the descriptions are stupid. If you're willing to leave them up for a few weeks I'll try to do better ones but if you delete them altogether I'll have formatting problems. If you feel like scrolling down to June 26th edits, you'll see where I went ballistic when some editor added those descriptions with truly bizarre formatting and episode numbering. Mirawithani (talk) 03:14, 16 April 2020 (UTC)

Certainly willing to wait, good to know you are working on them.  ~ RLO1729^💬 05:11, 16 April 2020 (UTC)

I'd also suggest that new descriptions just use surnames and avoid the police rank title problem altogether. I've removed these titles from the current descriptions.  ~ RLO1729^💬 05:21, 16 April 2020 (UTC)

I re-did “Cartes” but somehow also unintentionally converted “Kermesse” synopsis to italics. Looks like I may have used the wrong end parenthesis that should be used after the title, but if there's a different one, I can't find it. HELP. Mirawithani (talk) 15:48, 16 April 2020 (UTC)

Fixed :)   ~ RLO1729^💬 21:34, 16 April 2020 (UTC)

Thanks. I'm better at IMDB than Wiki ;-> Mirawithani (talk) 22:11, 16 April 2020 (UTC)

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt10269126/releaseinfo?ref_=tt_dt_dt

2020/2019 date edits

Substitution of Talk page discussion for the record:

Your date edits to Les Petits Meurtres

I don't know why you changed 2020 to 2019 as end of the series, cast appearances, etc., but: The final episode of Season 2 started streaming in French with English subtitles in Jan 2020 and isn't scheduled to be released in France until September or October 2020 (Antoine Dulery from Season 1 reappears as guest star in the S2 finale); the first episodes of a Season 3 with new lead cast were to start filming in March but had to be postponed due to Covid — they are expected to be released in late 2020. Mirawithani (talk) 19:11, 13 April 2020 (UTC)

Thanks Mirawithani, the article itself only had episodes up to 2019 (until your recent edit) but the source I relied on was IMDM which gives September 2019 for France and October 2019 for Italy for the last episode "Un cadavre au petit déjeuner". As it is a French series, later release dates in other countries such as in Australia seem a little irrelevant, but that's why I added "(France)" to the final release date in the infobox. Otherwise the article will need to keep track of release dates in all countries. I also think it is better to only include dates for existing series (so up to 2019) rather than assuming further seasons will go ahead, despite announcements. The article can be revised when the new series actually appears.  ~ RLO1729^💬 20:49, 13 April 2020 (UTC)

The infobox item is also called "Original release" so 2019 per the IMDB citation would seem to be the best date to use at present.  ~ RLO1729^💬 21:16, 13 April 2020 (UTC)

Just checked, the episode itself is dated 2019 in the credits.  ~ RLO1729^💬 22:13, 13 April 2020 (UTC)

I'm sure your date edits are well-intentioned but they're based on incorrect information and also misunderstanding of how TV series Infobox is handled on Wikipedia. IMDB is often incorrect because, like Wikipedia, much of it is user-added and not “official”; any registered user can contribute and IMDB doesn't usually check to see if it's verified — contributions that I've added to IMDB have been accepted immediately. In March 2019, the head of France 2 TV Fiction said publicly that “Un cadavre au petit déjeuner” would be broadcast in France toward the end of 2019, but then the network postponed for a year and nobody bothered to revise it on IMDB — a Google search will indicate that this episode has definitely NOT been released in France yet, other than in an Avant-Premiere at a film festival. (Several episodes of this series have been shown in other countries before France over the years.)

Australia (French with English subtitles) is especially relevant here because this is English-speaking Wikipedia and is available on streaming, although the true initial release was on Italian TV last October —- dubbed in Italian and broadcast only a few times.

It is standard Wikipedia form to use a Start Date followed by -present, -ongoing, or just a plain - for a TV series that has not ended; no date for last episode actually aired. Mirawithani (talk) 01:34, 14 April 2020 (UTC)

Thanks again. If the last episode is dated 2019 and it was released (anywhere) in 2019, then surely 2019 should be used. Why is released in Italy less important than released in Australia? The infobox item is not titled "First aired in home country" but "Original release", and the last episode of the currently existing series was thus originally released in 2019. Whether or not it was an English-language/subtitled release is irrelevant, especially as we are talking about a French-language serial anyway.

This is really such a minor issue, but I'm suggesting accuracy about the current state of affairs over speculation about the future, and standard Wikipedia form is not always a good guide. The expectation of a third series could be included in the body of the article.  ~ RLO1729^💬 01:51, 14 April 2020 (UTC)

“Original release” in the Infobox is the date the series started and is followed by “-date” only if the SERIES has ended; it is never intended for the airdate of just the most recent episode.

If you want to change the year of “Cadavre” back to 2019 from 2020 because Italy aired it first, feel free to do so. Problem is finding a reference with the date because networks tend to remove the page shortly after they first broadcast it. It took some contortions to find even one because Googling for Fox Crime + the series or the episode produces only the current schedule. Here it is, but no guarantee it won't expire any minute:  Mirawithani (talk) 02:41, 14 April 2020 (UTC)

1. ^ https://www.mondofox.it/guida-tv/foxcrime/2019-10-31/

Thanks for the reference, which I'll add in and hopefully it will be archived somewhere. Re the Infobox, I've revised the Original release info per the template parameter description and hope that resolves this discussion.  ~ RLO1729^💬 02:57, 14 April 2020 (UTC)

Series One years

Should the Series One subsection heading dates be (2009–2012) or (2009–2011) given the years shown in that subsection?  ~ RLO1729^💬 02:29, 14 April 2020 (UTC)

No, it's including the last two episodes (numbers 4 & 5) under 2011 that's wrong because they were broadcast in 2012. I disliked the one episode and couple of partials of Season 1 that I watched, so I didn't pay any attention to it on Wiki. But I just checked the French Wiki, which has all the specific airdates. Mirawithani (talk) 04:37, 14 April 2020 (UTC)

Great, thanks.  ~ RLO1729^💬 04:46, 14 April 2020 (UTC)

Infobox Original release date 2009

The article includes the 2006 mini-series and the infobox indicates 3 seasons (i.e. mini-series, Series One & Two), so for consistency should the infobox Original release date be 2006?  ~ RLO1729^💬 02:35, 14 April 2020 (UTC)

Well, that's a can of worms because the “Petits meurtres en famille” mini-series is not part of the “Les petits meurtres” series and therefore shouldn't be listed as though it were. The producers hadn't expected to follow up the mini-series with a full series and it's very confusing to viewers that they used the same lead characters because the plot of the mini-series makes it literally impossible. French Wiki (as well as IMDB and the English-speaking networks that broadcast or stream them), so the Start Date problem doesn't exist there. Other than creating a separate entry for the mini-series, which nobody on English Wiki has wanted to undertake, or simply mentioning it on the LPM entry rather than actually “listing” it, I have no solution to offer.

I think what you wound up doing with the dating/release issue is fine. There's much more detail on French Wiki, which includes separate entries for LPM plus Seasons 1 and 2, but the series isn't nearly as big a deal in English-speaking countries as it is in France so it doesn't need that much coverage. Mirawithani (talk) 05:16, 14 April 2020 (UTC)

Great, thanks again!  ~ RLO1729^💬 05:22, 14 April 2020 (UTC)

Along the same lines, as the 2006 mini-series has been included in the article should its cast also be listed (possibly in a separate Cast table)?  ~ RLO1729^💬 23:26, 14 April 2020 (UTC)

Or perhaps it would be better to refocus the article on just Series One and Two, and briefly mention the mini-series in a separate section towards the end of the article.  ~ RLO1729^💬 00:14, 15 April 2020 (UTC)

Yes, the mini-series should get a brief separate mention — either at the beginning or end of the article — instead of being included as part of the Les Petits Meurtres series because it isn't; a murderer can't reprise his role as the lead Commissaire in the same series. I kind of cringed at “forty-two episodes.” Mirawithani (talk) 02:30, 16 April 2020 (UTC)

Done, thanks.  ~ RLO1729^💬 04:24, 16 April 2020 (UTC)

Cast collapsible table

As a trial, I've converted the Cast table to be collapsible. Keep / revise to initially appear uncollapsed / revert?  ~ RLO1729^💬 02:50, 15 April 2020 (UTC)

I'm glad you un-collapsed the Cast and also added the leads at the top and in the Infobox. There are a couple of extra spaces between the names in the Infobox and Blandine Bellavoir should be credited before Elodie Frenck, as in the episodes (the series started out as just the Commissaire and journalist, with Frenck as supporting cast, but she was elevated to main cast after a few episodes because she became such a hit with critics and viewers). Apologies for not just making these fixes to the Infoxbox myself but I'd only make a hash of it if I tried, for reasons explained on your Talk page. Mirawithani (talk) 02:48, 16 April 2020 (UTC)

I noticed the difference in spacing but think it is associated with lines that have accented letters, there are no extra lines in the infobox coding.  ~ RLO1729^💬 03:39, 16 April 2020 (UTC)

French/English police ranks

I suggest the article follows the official Agatha Christie site and uses the French titles for police ranks (Commissaire, Inspecteur etc) throughout, rather than trying to shoehorn English equivalents. The official site does describe Commissaire Laurence as an "admired superintendant" but does not use "Superintendant" as a title (and it is not a recognised detective rank in the English police anyway). The approximate English police rank would be Detective Chief Inspector (DCI). The lead section would then include:

Both the mini-series and Series One take place in 1930s France with Commissaire (DCI) Larosière and Inspecteur Lampion. Series Two takes place in mid-1950s through 1960s France with Commissaire Laurence ...

  ~ RLO1729^💬 04:38, 15 April 2020 (UTC)

The rank of Superintendent, as well as Chief Superintendent and I think one other Superintendent rank does actually exist in the British police. The police detectives in several British novels and TV series (e.g., PD James' Adam Dalgleish, Christie's Superintendent Battle, Jane Tennison in “Prime Suspect”) start out as or get promoted to Superintendent of one variety or another. BUT that doesn't mean it's the equivalent of the French Commissaire —- translators differ, so in the absence of agreement on a definitive equivalent, if there even is one, I agree with you that we should just use the French Commissaire. The only problem is if another editor comes along and changes it back to Commissioner simply because the two words sound alike, which is presumably what happened initially. :-) Mirawithani (talk) 02:20, 16 April 2020 (UTC)

Done, at least editors will be able to refer to this discussion if changes are made in the future.  ~ RLO1729^💬 03:59, 16 April 2020 (UTC)

Episode table?

Should the Episode section be reformatted using {{Episode table}} and {{Episode list}} – for example State of Affairs?

Possibly one for each series (colour can be altered, writer/other included etc), e.g.:

Series One: 1930s France (2009–2012)

Commissaire Jean Larosière / Inspecteur Émile Lampion

No. in series	Title	Christie adaptation	Directed by	Original air date
1	"Les meurtres ABC"	The A.B.C. Murders	Eric Woreth	2009
As a serial killer taunts Larosière, the great detective's career could be the next casualty.
2	"Am stram gram"	Ordeal by Innocence	Stéphane Kappes	2009
After the death of a beloved philanthropist, suspicion falls on her brood of adopted children.
3	"La plume empoisonnée"	The Moving Finger	Eric Woreth	2009
Lampion gets badly wounded during a case and has to rest. Larosière rents a room for him in a small village which looks the perfect place to recover, except someone is sending ugly poison-pen letters.

  ~ RLO1729^💬 04:23, 17 April 2020 (UTC)

An episode table would look nice, and including the guest cast in the box with their episodes would enable us to ditch the existing cast table, which is unwieldy and doesn't impart much information; we could list Principal and Secondary cast (Dominique Thomas, Marie Berto, & Cyril Gueï in S2, I don't know if there are secondaries in S1) in headers before the Table and delete the principals from the lede. Fine to include writers as well as directors in the Table. And I definitely prefer numbering the episodes consecutively within each Season to the 1-2-3 by year.

The original release dates remain problematic no matter how we do it because of the abnormality of many S2 episodes getting their original release in other countries, not the country where they were produced. We could skirt the issue by not having a release date column in the Table and just leaving the S1 and S2 Start and End years on top with their headers? French LPM main page entry does this.

French Wiki initially used only the original French airdate for S2, but started including original airdates in Belgium and Switzerland after some editors noticed that many episodes were being released from a couple of weeks to almost a year ahead of France in those countries, and of course now Italy and Australia for “Cadavre.” Two more episodes where the *year* was different: Original release of “Drame en trois actes” was 2017 in Switzerland, French release was 2018; original release of “Dingue ding dongue” was 2018 in Switzerland, French release was not until late 2019.

I'm also wondering whether the table should actually include episode synopses or take a cue from the English Poirot TV series entries by letting “adapted from” (with the English book titles) suffice except for the two originals. Despite understanding French and being a huge S2 fan who's read an unbelievable amount of stuff about it, I've yet to see worthy synopses of the several very convoluted episodes. The official synopses from Escazal and France2 are awful and sometimes flat-out wrong (I deleted on French Wiki an inexcusable egregious error in the official “Cadavre” synopsis copied there).

If you really think synopses are necessary, I'm still willing to try my hand on as many as possible for S2 — excluding “Cheval pâle,” “Melodie mortelle” and “Le miroir...” because I disliked them and never re-watched — but I can't do anything at all about S1, having watched so little of it. Editors usually write episode synopses as each one is aired, not all at once, and there seem to be only two of us working on LPM so this would take quite a while. Mirawithani (talk) 06:18, 17 April 2020 (UTC)

Great, I'll work on the Series Two table and upload initial versions which we can adjust as needed. I've been reviewing MOS:TV and plot summaries are required so it would be great if you could keep working on them. I'll have a go at any remaining ones when you've finished, even if they may just be summaries of the IMDB versions (attributed of course!), and others can improve as needed later on. I've also added reminders ("to self" as well) that character descriptions (possibly with Principal and Secondary cast mentioned there?) and production sections are also needed - perhaps some of that can be obtained pretty easily from the French Wiki.

I think the article is improving - well done!  ~ RLO1729^💬 06:38, 17 April 2020 (UTC)

Restructure?

One option for the Cast section would be to rename it "Cast and characters" and replace the current table with bullet points for Main and Recurring actors/characters, as at State of Affairs (TV series). This would then mean either combining the Series One and Two (and later Three) entries under the Main and Recurring heading respectively, or separating them by series under each heading. The Episodes section also currently has one series following the other. It seems "lumpy" to jump from one series to the next in each main section (Cast then Episodes). Because the series are so distinct, would it be better to restructure these sections by series, i.e.:

Series One

Cast and characters

(bullet points)

Episodes

(table)

Series Two

Cast and characters

(bullet points)

Episodes

(table)

followed by Series Three when released?  ~ RLO1729^💬 10:29, 17 April 2020 (UTC)

Agree on the restructure and that 1 & 2 should definitely have their own tables. But I'd kill the Year Released in Episodes Table column in favor of Season 1 & 2 Start and End years in respective headers.

OK, I'll restructure the article and we can see if it works. It can always be re-restructured. I'm hesitant to remove information such as the years as I do like to see (even approximately) when each episode was released. Giving only the year seems a reasonable compromise to avoid problems with different release dates for different countries as at least most are in the same year. The odd exception such as the last episode of Series 2 isn't too hard to handle with an additional note.  ~ RLO1729^💬 00:11, 18 April 2020 (UTC)

As to whether we can use any IMDB plot summaries that happen to be decent, I maintain that the IMDB copyright for such things is a non-concern because they're often user-added and themselves verbatim, without attribution, from other sources, e.g., IMDB's synopses that I checked for S1 of LPM are *exactly* the same as the ones provided by the distributor on the DVD packages. So whose copyright, if even applicable, are we even talking about?

I'm not saying that we shouldn't try to add our own synopses, just that we don't *have* to. Also, tables for TV series are done every which way. The Poirot Episodes table simply has a column with a link to each episode's IMDB page, which is also a clever workaround for the problems about IMDB as a “reliable source”:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citing_IMDb

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Agatha_Christie%27s_Poirot_episodes

Thanks, interesting reading. My understanding of the "Citing IMDB" guidelines, MOS:TVPLOT and general policies WP:PSTS, WP:CV is that it is OK to cite the IMDB plot outlines (as they are subject to editorial oversight, not user-added) but it is not OK to copy them wholesale and without permission or attribution. IMDB claims the copyright on their site but who owns the copyright doesn't really matter, if they are thought to be copyright somewhere then that should be investigated before the content is used. Even if they were public domain then they would still need to be attributed. So, to me, just using plot summaries copied directly from IMDB leaves the article open to too many criticism from both within and outside Wikipedia. The best way forward, if plot summaries are to be included, is brief "basic descriptions" per MOS:TVPLOT. The Poirot article approach is interesting too but I very much dislike the use of bare URLS - not sure if they OK in a List type article but I'd avoid using them in a normal article.  ~ RLO1729^💬 00:21, 18 April 2020 (UTC)

I feel strongly that English Wiki should include a Home Video section for DVDs with English subtitles. I was about to do such a section months ago but another editor zapped all the poorly formatted DVD mentions on the grounds that DVDs have no place in the entry because they're promotional. That is absolutely false but I didn't want to get into edit-warring so I dropped it and just recently added (DVD) to Infobox because better than nothing.

The DVD rundown: Acorn has released one set with the first six episodes of S1 plus first episode of S2; MHZ has released one set with the last five episodes of S1, three sets comprising S2 episodes two through twenty-two; and the Family Murder Party mini-series set.

Yes, MOS:TV indicates including DVDs is certainly OK - up to editor preference and put in a section normally titled Home media. So go for it!  ~ RLO1729^💬 00:27, 18 April 2020 (UTC)

What do you think? Mirawithani (talk) 16:27, 17 April 2020 (UTC)

Initial possible restructure completed. I've left the Cast table in for reference at the moment but set it to initially collapsed to give a better idea of what the article would look like if/when it is deleted. Is this the way to go?  ~ RLO1729^💬 00:56, 18 April 2020 (UTC)

Cast and character sections will also need descriptions of characters.  ~ RLO1729^💬 01:02, 18 April 2020 (UTC)

First, I don't think cast members who had different roles in S1 and S2 should be included as “Recurring” because it's apples & oranges and misleading. Also, I'd suggest using “Supporting Cast” instead of “Recurring” and re-ordering in order of importance, i.e., the two actors who played Jourdeuil should be second from the bottom and Eric Beauchamp, whose role consists mainly of being yelled for by Laurence, should be last. I do like including Bubille :-) If you want to mention that some actors appear in both series, I've seen it done under a Notes heading, which could also include things of interest like the actor who plays Laurence's son in Meutres en solde is Samuel Labarthe's real-life son and the actor who plays Avril's husband in MacGinty is Blandine Bellavoir's real-life partner (he and their baby both appear as themselves in airport scene at end of Cadavre).

Agree with your comments on S1 and S2 cast members, just wanted to include them somewhere while I remembered. A Notes section would be good (how to decide what is a Note and what is Trivia?) or interesting episode-related items could be included in the plot summary section of the relevant episode? We would need supporting citations for facts like actors' real-world relationships, do we have them?

I listed the recurring actors simply in order of decreasing no. of episodes but MOS:TVCAST provides some guidance for list order of cast members which we should try to follow to avoid subjective assessments on which roles were more important than others.

Yes, I thought including Bubulle was in the spirit of the humour of the series. The humorous aspect of the show doesn't come out in the current article, where should it be included?  ~ RLO1729^💬

Second, I'm still in favor of putting guest cast with their episodes in Table, not sure whether you still intend to do that. It's much easier to follow than a long list, and character names and descriptions aren't used in boxes/columns in the Table formats I've seen. Again, Cast is included every which way on Wiki TV series, so it's really just up to us. Mirawithani (talk) 16:31, 18 April 2020 (UTC)

If you agree, I'm intending to eventually delete the long Cast table and have just left it in for reference at the moment. I've generally been following the format of State of Affairs (TV series) as suggested in MOS:TVPLOT but I need to have a close read of the whole MOS:TV article to get my head around what the expectations are in this area.  ~ RLO1729^💬 20:49, 18 April 2020 (UTC)

I'm switching to no opinion on whether the non-regular cast are going to be listed, as opposed to included with their particular episodes in some kind of chart or table. But if listed, they should be with their character names in separate lists for each season under a heading called Guest directly below Main and Support for each season, not at the end of the article — no need to include every actor because it's Guest, which is standard in Wiki TV series entires I've seen, instead of Complete. They could be either in episode or alphabetical order, the latter requiring episode number. Collapsing is okay as long as Guest is with Cast and Characters section. IIRC, the *average* number of actors who merit inclusion is about seven, most of whom are suspects. Of course it's somewhat POV but that's also standard because it's just the nature of the beast. Mirawithani (talk) 02:09, 25 April 2020 (UTC)

Agree that Cast list should “eventually” be taken down, but not until the cast members are accounted for elsewhere on the page. Good idea to leave it up there in collapsed form so we can work from it and also so that readers can find it.

Among the missing from the existing list, just off the top of my head: Helène Medigue, Alexandre Labarthe, and Arnaud Perron, who had major roles in S2 cast; Claudine Vigreux, who was in one S1 episode and the Finale of S2; and very many others who had roles of some significance. And I have or can find or citations for real-life relationships, but while Medigue was Samuel Labarthe's wife at the time Sparkling Cyanide was filmed, they separated in 2016 and I don't know their current marital status, so IMHO too tricky to include her as wife — “then-wife” is no good because implies they're divorced. As to amusing relationships, Francoise Fabian played Samuel Labarthe's mistress in a movie years ago and I can cite a funny quote by Fabian about mistress>mother if you want.

I think a Notes heading is better than Trivia because editors are prone to removing Trivia and citing MOS:TV “avoid” to justify. An editor removed Laurence's Facel on either a French or English LPM Wiki although it's part of his character and is featured as such in many articles about the series and both TV and automobile websites.

You and I have different approaches to MOS:TV — I'm more “Remember, this is only a guide” and one size doesn't fit all. I think we should focus on providing accurate, sourced information in whatever readable, user-friendly format we want. Wandering around TV series entries in the past few days, I've seen many different formats used — several looked good to me, others sent me running away screaming. Mirawithani (talk) 01:33, 19 April 2020 (UTC)

I agree with using MOS:TV as guidelines but think the closer we stay to it the less room there is for objection from other editors. For example, I don't think it is necessary to include all cast and characters (under notability MOS:TVCAST) and wouldn't want to include all of them in either the current Cast or Episode sections – so, if they are to be included then I'd actually prefer the Cast table to stay (and begin collapsed) as that seems the most efficient and least obtrusive way to include the long list of cast/characters. From IMDB there are numerous cast members that aren't in our table (yet?).  ~ RLO1729^💬 02:11, 19 April 2020 (UTC)

Agree that we don't have to include absolutely everybody in the Cast, whether list or table form, but we should include all whose characters are important, e.g., the murderer, in the episode regardless of whether the actors themselves are “notable” on English Wiki, i.e., blue-linked; because it's a French series, relatively few have their own entries —- not even the majority of the main cast (Élodie Frenck's entry was simply exported from French Wiki, however that's done). I'm not sure how we draw the line on “important.” Another complication is how to handle Samuel Labarthe and Élodie Frenck playing a different role in addition to their main in two episodes. There's at least one error in IMDB cast and they're not in order; French Wiki LPM has other errors & inconsistencies but their cast lists are better, so I'll go by those.

BTW, France2 TV has announced it's postponing its planned Fall series 2020 schedule to 2021, so definitely no S3 and possibly also no “Cadavre” this year. We shouldn't change the dates until there's something specific about LPM. Mirawithani (talk) 06:20, 19 April 2020 (UTC)

Great, thanks for the update. I agree with including cast/character if either is notable (in real life or in the show), so definitely the murderer and those that appeared in multiple episodes, but not necessarily every single-episode minor-role actor. Special cases such as dual roles for lead actors could be mentioned in either the Notes or the relevant Episode description. I've put Bellavoir and Duléry's other roles in the Notes at the moment but the four main actor dual roles could certainly go in the Episode table. What do you think?  ~ RLO1729^💬 06:35, 19 April 2020 (UTC)

Added the other dual roles. Also, in Series One Overview, what is the best description of Larosière: a "ladies' man", a "womaniser", something else?  ~ RLO1729^💬 07:04, 19 April 2020 (UTC)

I think the dual roles belong in their episode descriptions rather than Notes, in which case the text about the which episode and season would obviously removed. I didn't move them but corrected tense to present.

OK, will do. My natural inclination (maths and science background) is to default to past tense in technical writing but happy to go with whatever is the usual convention here.  ~ RLO1729^💬 01:49, 20 April 2020 (UTC)

PS – I understand "appears" because the episode can be viewed in the present, but do we say an actor "plays" or "played" a particular character (which they did in the past but are not currently doing)?  ~ RLO1729^💬 04:19, 20 April 2020 (UTC)

Yes, re: present tense, especially because it's the same series in the same entry, even though a different season. Mirawithani (talk) 14:37, 20 April 2020 (UTC)

Re: main character descriptions. LOL, can't give you any help on Larosiere because all I can think of is “jerk” — I stopped watching S1 partly because I couldn't stand him. Should Lampion's also say “gay”?

I understand that Lampion's sexuality is described as playing a role in the series (which I haven't seen). However, I think this is better seen as the "characters' differing sexualities (and views thereof)" and there is good reason to say that if the sexuality of other characters is not mentioned in the main character descriptions then Lampion's should not be singled out. Are the character conflicts actually because of Larosière's heterosexism? Where the characters' differences affect the story-line then this will be relevant to the individual episode descriptions.  ~ RLO1729^💬 01:49, 20 April 2020 (UTC)

I found official France2 TV's short characterization of Larosiere & Lampion: https://mobile.france.tv/france-2/les-petits-meurtres-d-agatha-christie/saison-1/#xtref=https://www.google.com/ “Quinquagénaire séducteur, poète et épicurien, le commissaire Jean Larosière mène des enquêtes policières avec son adjoint, l'inspecteur Emile Lampion, un jeune homosexuel timide et maladroit, dans la région du Nord-Pas-de-Calais des années 30”

It doesn't say to what extent Lampion's being gay figures in the episodes and, since neither of us know, we still don't have to mention “gay” if you prefer not to. I don't think we need “heterosexist” for Larosiere in any case — “womaniser” is clear enough and would show enough contrast with the gay Lampion if we do go with “gay.” Mirawithani (talk) 17:33, 20 April 2020 (UTC)

Okay with leaving out “gay.” I was just going by other overviews of S1, which generally mention it. Bit of a problem improving S1 since neither of us is familiar with it. It did have very high ratings, just like S2, and is on DVD and still being streamed or replayed in France and other countries, including USA, so maybe another editor who watched it will chime in sometime. Mirawithani (talk) 14:25, 20 April 2020 (UTC)

I think we should do a bit more on the S2 mains. I'm okay with “suave” for Laurence only because he's sometimes described that way — Escazal & France2 liken him to Cary Grant for promotional purposes, which is why they put him in the same suit that Grant wears in North by Northwest — but in fact he's rarely suave, much more often nasty, rude, arrogant, intolerant, and “cold” (a word *he* used to describe himself in the first episode). I think both male chauvinist or some equivalent and cold should be added and possibly also well-born or the like, the latter to emphasize the contrast with Avril, which helps set up their relationship; Avril's should include raised in an orphanage and feminist. Marlène's should probably mention the Marilyn Monroe fixation and her unrequited love for Laurence. Mirawithani (talk) 17:02, 19 April 2020 (UTC)

Very happy for more to be done on these but not my strong-point and I'm still not sure where the balance between basic description and personal interpretation/editorialising is in all of this. It would be good to base these descriptions on (reliable) secondary sources if possible.  ~ RLO1729^💬 01:49, 20 April 2020 (UTC)

Spoilers

I expect to use some things in Plot summaries that could be considered spoilers. Wiki policy is very clear that spoilers are permitted and that in fact editors aren't permitted to remove them, but I'd like your opinion. As an example, in “Bruno” I'd say that Laurence “feigns his death” because it's an important part of the plot (the official FranceTV description used by foreign networks, e.g., SBS, and IMDB says that Laurence “dies,” which of course he doesn't). Another example, in “Cadavre,” Avril finds her long-lost father because it's discovered that he's the one who hired the private detective to find her and was murdered in her bed. I could put drafts here before uploading if you want to review first. Mirawithani (talk) 20:14, 19 April 2020 (UTC)

Good point – here's where we should definitely rely on MOS:TV :) which says:

Plot sections should summarize the core storyline(s), but not offer a scene-by-scene sequence of everything that happens, or attempt to evaluate, interpret or analyze it. Avoid minutiae like dialogue, scene-by-scene breakdowns, individual jokes, technical detail, as well as any information that belongs in other sections, such as actors' names. Overly detailed summaries are unencyclopedic and summaries copied verbatim from other sources can risk a breach of US copyright law. Furthermore, plot summaries may not be copied from elsewhere unless their license is compatible with Wikipedia use. Also note that Wikipedia's content disclaimer and guideline on spoilers is that all of an episode's important events should be outlined without censoring details considered spoilers, and without disclaimers or warnings. (MOS:TVPLOT)

so no problems at all with spoilers. The plot summaries just need to be "encyclodedic" without worrying about anything else – other than also needing to be "basic descriptions" (because of the use of primary sources) and satisfying copyright of course.  ~ RLO1729^💬 00:28, 20 April 2020 (UTC)

Recent revisions

I like the current solution to "is/was" Bellavoir's partner. I wanted to avoid "is" as it requires ongoing vigilance for the article to remain accurate. Avoiding either word is good.

IMDB shows Alexandre Labarthe played Thierry in both S2 E10 and E22. Thierry may only have been revealed as Laurence's son in E22 but, if IMDB is correct, I think E10 should still be included in the Note.  ~ RLO1729^💬 21:31, 20 April 2020 (UTC)

I'm 100% positive that Alexandre/Thierry was in only Episode 22. That episode is also the first time the son is even mentioned. Laurence is completely taken aback when a former lover shows up in his office and reveals that he fathered her son — they'd been out of contact for 20+ years and she'd never told him she was pregnant when he went off to fight in the Resistance. There's at least one other error in the IMDB cast: A Dr. Locart, played by the same actor, is listed in two different episodes; no, a doctor named Santini was in Ep. 10, Locart was in Ep. 22 and is played by a different actor. IMDB really can't be taken as definitive and has to be cross-checked with another source, either the credits in the episode itself or French Wiki entries (they're far from perfect but good for cast). FYI, I added the cast for Ep. 27 from a screenshot I took of the credits in the SBS episode online because the French editors apparently don't have VPNs and didn't have access to SBS. https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saison_2_des_Petits_Meurtres_d%27Agatha_Christie Mirawithani (talk) 01:30, 21 April 2020 (UTC)

Yes, just checked the E10 credits and he's not listed.  ~ RLO1729^💬 01:49, 21 April 2020 (UTC)

First, just FYI, IMDB, which has taken all my other contributions, declined my attempted deletions of Alexandre Labarthe and the several other Ep 22 actors who are listed incorrectly as also in Ep 10. IMDB wants “evidence” that those actors aren't in Ep 10, but I can't prove a negative.

Second, I hope it's okay with you that I changed the order of the Support cast in S2 to reflect their importance in the series — Carmouille and Glissant become part of “the team” and Bubulle is...a fish. :-) Mirawithani (talk) 03:17, 30 April 2020 (UTC)

Question about series characterization/genre and use of French

LPM isn't a police procedural by any criterion but what's called in French a “comédie policière,” a very popular genre in France but doesn't conform to any term we use in English — official France Televisions has translated it as “detective comedy,” most other English promos, articles and reviews just say something like “witty adaptations” or “Christie with a French twist,” which won't do for Wiki. Do you think we can use “comédie policière” — although it's French, I think it's clear enough to speak for itself *and* it's accurate. Mirawithani (talk) 20:57, 21 April 2020 (UTC)

Yes, I wasn't completely happy with the genre either but it was the closest I could find. I didn't think it was a million miles away:

a subgenre of procedural drama and detective fiction that emphasizes the investigative procedure of a police officer (i.e. Laurence)

although, while the show does contain elements mentioned below, I agree a major problem is the lack of accuracy and the comedic aspect:

the defining element of a police procedural is the attempt to accurately depict the profession of law enforcement, including such police-related topics as forensic science, autopsies, gathering evidence, search warrants, interrogation and adherence to legal restrictions and procedure.

As with the character roles, the precise French term should definitely be included; what about something like:

comédie policière (approximately comedic police procedural), or

comédie policière (approximately comedic police crime drama)

similar to Commissaire in the lead section, but I'm certainly open to suggestions of a better approximate genre to link to in Wikipedia. It should be possible to characterise the show within an existing genre (either approximately or "cross-genre") without having to invent a new, undefined genre.  ~ RLO1729^💬 22:15, 21 April 2020 (UTC)

I vote for “comédie policière (approximately comedic police crime drama),” but without the word “approximately.” Mirawithani (talk) 02:23, 22 April 2020 (UTC)

Done :)   ~ RLO1729^💬 02:28, 22 April 2020 (UTC)

Spelling

As the show's fundamental link is with an English author and stories I suggest the article should use British rather than American spelling conventions.  ~ RLO1729^💬 22:36, 21 April 2020 (UTC)

I'm fine with English spelling as long as we remember to be consistent. It hadn't occurred to me because everything I've seen about the series is either in French or American spelling because the UK pays virtually no attention to it. Odd that AC Estate website doesn't even mention the mini-series or S1. Mirawithani (talk) 02:32, 22 April 2020 (UTC)

OK, great. (The wikitext includes the EngvarB template.)  ~ RLO1729^💬 02:44, 22 April 2020 (UTC)

Guest cast

Thought it best to start a new section with your recent reply in Restructure, hope that's OK  ~ RLO1729^💬 03:27, 25 April 2020 (UTC)

I'm switching to no opinion on whether the non-regular cast are going to be listed, as opposed to included with their particular episodes in some kind of chart or table. But if listed, they should be with their character names in separate lists for each season under a heading called Guest directly below Main and Support for each season, not at the end of the article — no need to include every actor because it's Guest, which is standard in Wiki TV series entires I've seen, instead of Complete. They could be either in episode or alphabetical order, the latter requiring episode number. Collapsing is okay as long as Guest is with Cast and Characters section. IIRC, the *average* number of actors who merit inclusion is about seven, most of whom are suspects. Of course it's somewhat POV but that's also standard because it's just the nature of the beast. Mirawithani (talk) 02:09, 25 April 2020 (UTC)

Yes, I think a limited main guest cast subsection within each Series section would work well, then delete current Complete cast table.  ~ RLO1729^💬 03:32, 25 April 2020 (UTC)

Added empty Guest subsections. Thinking about the number of likely entries - say one to three per episode - will need either a long list of bullet points or a collapsible table, probably the latter to include character descriptions and episodes. Shall I add these tables?  ~ RLO1729^💬 03:42, 25 April 2020 (UTC)

Good idea, making a new section —- I didn't do it only because I couldn't figure out what and how to copy from the other one. :-)

Limiting Guest cast to 1-3 in many S2 episodes would be virtually impossible, even more highly POV, and I'd say un-encyclopedic. Suspects tend to get equal screentime (e.g., all five in “Cartes”); there are sometimes multiple crimes with different culprits and also important subplots with standout characters who aren't suspects (e.g., “Meurtres en solde,” “Crime de Noël,” and “Le crime ne paie pas”). In “Témoin muet,” THE star, both the actress and her role, is clearly Laurence's mother, played by Françoise Fabian, so I suppose we could list only her and exclude all the suspects and the two victims, which would also mean excluding the murderer. But there's nothing so pronounced in the other episodes.

I got the uneasy feeling when you questioned the number of Laurence's son's episodes that you haven't actually seen all or maybe even any of the episodes? If so, that's okay, but understand that it's going to take me a LONG time to do the characters and synopses on my own (your edits are much appreciated, though). And I'm absolutely opposed to adding character *descriptions,* which are used when characters are put in the narrative but generally not when either in list form or with their episodes.

I expect to first do *tentative* very short replacements of the two user-added IMDB synopses that are just plain wrong — neither the movie star in Ep. 2 nor the secretary in Ep 14 committed suicide. Mirawithani (talk) 15:25, 25 April 2020 (UTC)

We can certainly list as many guest cast as needed, just noting that even low numbers per episode would involve a long list per season so bullet points might not work well. What column headings would you suggest for S1 and S2 guest cast tables: similar to the existing cast table? with/without character descriptions? arranged by episode? ...

I have seen (binge watched) all of S2 but can't claim to remember all the details of each episode. Your episode descriptions are great, keep 'em coming! Glad the minor tweaks have been OK.  ~ RLO1729^💬 21:06, 25 April 2020 (UTC)

A simple table might look like this:

Guest cast of Series One

No. in Series	Actor	Character
1	Actor 1	Character 1
1	Actor 2	Character 2

""Character" could have a little more than just character name, as in current main character descriptions.  ~ RLO1729^💬 22:29, 25 April 2020 (UTC)

As a guide for a running draft for characters I'm mostly relying on French Wiki S2 and eliminating any that seem lesser. After winnowing down French Wiki “Jeux” from 8 to 6, I found a *rare* episode cast listing on an official France TV site, which lists 7; I'd eliminated Guillaume Bienvenu because, despite several viewings, I barely remember him, so I'm still thinking 6 but we can do 7 if you prefer.

https://www.francetvpro.fr/node/34023

Catherine Mouchet, Olivier Rabourdin, Stéphane Caillard, Solveig Maupu, Shane Woodward, Guillaume Bienvenu et Vincent Londez

I could do only half at most of character descriptions because my husband and I both had a hard time keeping them straight even while watching the episode, as in “that's whatshername's step-brother,” “NO, that's the other one's cousin,” “he's the accountant,” “NO, he's the salesman,” etc. And I don't see character descriptions of LPM cast provided anywhere.

As to table vs list, your call. All I care about format-wise is that it's easy to follow, which is probably best by order of episode instead of alphabetical. Mirawithani (talk) 00:10, 26 April 2020 (UTC)

Here is what it is currently starting to look like:

Guest cast

No. in Series	Actor (character)
1	Catherine Mouchet (Rose-Marie Bousquet), Olivier Rabourdin (Etienne Bousquet), Stéphane Caillard (Juliette), Solveig Maupu (Jaqueline Cassard), Shane Woodward (Jimmy White), Guillaume Bienvenu (Antonin Lambert), Vincent Londez (Léonard Jandel)
2

We should decide if this is really going to be very useful to anyone, given the amount of work it will take. Or should it just be the actors without character names? Should the names be linked (most will be red-linked)? Is notability an issue here?  ~ RLO1729^💬 02:12, 26 April 2020 (UTC)

I don't think character names are a problem because it's just a matter of copying & pasting from French Wiki, but we can use just the actors' names if you'd rather. I blue-linked the actors we've listed so far that I knew or suspected would have articles on English Wiki but didn't check on all of them. Is red-linking for actors who are or are likely to become notable enough to have articles but don't? I've never quite understood red-linking. Mirawithani (talk) 04:00, 26 April 2020 (UTC)

OK, that's fine with me. Glad the table worked for you, well done! Yes, red-linking indicates items that don't have articles but possibly should. At this stage I'd just go with only blue-linking actors unless there is a stand-out case of a missing article.  ~ RLO1729^💬 04:18, 26 April 2020 (UTC)

Episode synopses

It's a struggle to try to keep the synopses of these complicated stories short while also giving enough sense of them, so I appreciate your help. I've found that even for some I think I know almost by heart I have to either fudge it or re-watch parts to get the order straight, e.g., Albert Major — Laurence catches the culprit *before* finding that Avril has been set up on a poison drip.

Also, re: Albert Major. Do you think we should mention, either parenthetically with the episode or in Notes, that the title is a pun on the character in the novel who is murdered for the same reason — he's retired military with the rank of Major. Mirawithani (talk) 15:30, 29 April 2020 (UTC)

The synopses are coming along really well - thanks! Yes, complicated stories will require some explanation, so still go for brevity but say what's necessary. Your attention to detail re event order etc is appreciated.

Your question about Albert Major made me wonder more generally what makes a note vs a parenthetical episode comment. One "rule" might be note for general series relevance, parentheses for episode specific information. On that basis, the Albert Major info would be with the episode, but so would the two points on actors currently in the notes. Does that work for you?  ~ RLO1729^💬 23:01, 29 April 2020 (UTC)

Agree that both episode- and cast-specific comments should go with the episode descriptions instead of the general Notes section. And I think the parenthetical cast notes should be limited to Laurence's son being played by Labarthe's son and the dual roles played by Labarthe & Frenck. I would have liked to mention Sophie Bourdon playing different characters in two episodes just because the difference in the appearance and behavior of the two characters is staggering — the dissolute mother in Noël” is completely unrecognizable as the dolled-up dating service lady in “Cartes” — but we really can't single her out, and including all the actors who appeared in more than one role would just be a complicated mess. Mirawithani (talk) 02:59, 30 April 2020 (UTC)

Yes, only notable facts need to be noted :).  ~ RLO1729^💬 03:46, 30 April 2020 (UTC)

PS - re support cast order, it seems more straightforward to me to list them in order of number of episodes (or alphabetically) as anything else involves some subjective judgement of relative importance or other criteria.  ~ RLO1729^💬 03:56, 30 April 2020 (UTC)

Strongly disagree. It isn't subjective to rely on the network's and production company's idea of relative importance of Support cast, which is officially Thomas (after his role was solidified), Guei, and Berto (even in her first appearance late in the series). The order of those three flips around in the credits and they are sometimes preceded by a couple of guest stars, but they *consistently* top all other recurring cast.

Beauchamp is Supporting cast only because he's apparently assigned to Laurence and therefore in many episodes. He's usually dead last in the episode credits, an exception being “Noël,” the only episode I can recall where he does or says anything more than to come when Laurence calls on him (he plays horsey briefly with the orphan and says his home can't be a temporary place for her because his wife is sick) — he's credited 17th out of 23.

The Jourdeuil character certainly has a bigger role than Martin, but not even close to Berto/Thomas/Guei. The two actors who play him seem to be credited in accordance with the amount of screen time — dead last in LHZ. Mirawithani (talk) 17:46, 30 April 2020 (UTC)

Nevertheless, the reasons given above involve an editorial analysis of un-cited websites and episodes to assess relative importance of characters with which other editors may disagree. It's a minor point, just seemed more straightforward to use an obvious sorting method (numerical or alphabetical) that can be easily recognised by readers and future editors. Readers who have not seen the series and network/production websites will have no idea of the reasons behind the current ordering, good though they may be.  ~ RLO1729^💬 02:41, 1 May 2020 (UTC)

The episode itself, as MOSTV suggests several times, is the definitive source — that's what “as credited” means. Furthermore, MOSTV is opposed to including number of episodes for cast members (also, ordering numerically for LPM would require watching end credits of almost all the episodes for Eric Beauchamp and the two actors who play Jordeuil because there is no other reliable source). In addion to others mentioned previously, Cyril Guei's episode attribution on IMDB is wrong — he first appears in “Styles,” not the earlier “MacGinty,” so the number of episodes is 13, not 14, the number currently in the Wiki entry, presumably taken from IMDB.

I don't take MOSTV, which says “remember, this is only a guide,” as seriously as you do. But if you want to go by MOSTV for the characters who are and should be listed as “support” in LPM (MOSTV addresses only “recurring”), they should be in the order of how they're credited in their *first* episode.

Thomas is credited above Jourdeuil actor #1 in Ep 1 and also above Jordeuil actor #2's first appearance, “Témoin muet.” Guei is credited 6th in his first appearance (neither Beauchamp nor Jordeuil actor is credited). Berto is credited near the top, just after those two, in her first episode, “Noël.” Beauchamp is credited second from the bottom in his first appearance, “Témoin muet.”

Natacha Lindinger is a special case because she could be credited either as Guest or Support. If Support, going by MOSTV she should head the list because she's credited first in her first appearance, “Murder Party” (probably also in her other episodes because she plays a key role as Laurence's only serious love as well as légiste, and she's a star in France).

But list the Support characters however you want. I give up because I just don't have time for this. Mirawithani (talk) 21:43, 2 May 2020 (UTC)