Talk:Leonardo III Tocco

Leonardo III Tocco has been listed as one of the History good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.
Review: August 30, 2021. (Reviewed version).

Biography: Royalty and Nobility

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Greece: Byzantine Mid‑importance

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Military history: Biography / Balkan / European / Medieval

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Felice Ceretti

Despite user:Holapaco77's assertion that Felice Ceretti "was one of the greatest historians in the history of the Duchy of Mirandola". Felice Ceretti was a priest, being called "Father" in Copenhaver's book, and not an academic historian.

Per Magic and the Dignity of Man, by Brian P. Copenhaver, page 102:

"Ceretti was a workhorse of amateur scholarship: by the time he died in 1915, he had production more than 350 publications..."

Hardly "one of the greatest historians in the history" of anywhere. --Kansas Bear (talk) 23:45, 5 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Kansas Bear: On Felice Ceretti (1878). Il conte Antonmaria Pico. Vol. 3 (Parte 2). Modena: G.T. Vincenzi e nipoti. p. 255-257. {{cite book}}: |work= ignored (help) it's written that Raimonda Tocco married it:Antonio Maria Pico della Mirandola in Neaples on 1 March 1492. On pages 286-287 there are transcriptions of two original letters written in 1492 by Antonio Maria Pico to the Marquess of Mantua where he says he married Raimonda Tocco (letter XXV) and then he was going to Naples to pick up his wife letter XXVI). --Holapaco77 (talk) 00:03, 6 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Then, the exact name of "Federigo Pico" is actually it:Federico I Pico, who was the son of Galeotto I Pico, brother of Antonio Maria Pico. --Holapaco77 (talk) 00:08, 6 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Which all means nothing when the source work is done by an amateur. Either address the real issue or accept Ceretti is an unreliable source. --Kansas Bear (talk) 00:16, 6 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Kansas Bear: what source says Raimonda married "Federigo" Pico? --Holapaco77 (talk) 00:40, 6 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Also Alfred von Reumont said here (p. 187) that Raimonda married Antonio Maria Pico. --Holapaco77 (talk) 00:44, 6 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Also professors Francesco Senatore and Francesco Storti (academic historians of Naples University) confirm the marriage between Raimonda and Antonio Maria (here). Other source: here. --Holapaco77 (talk) 00:54, 6 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Then why are you using an unreliable source?--Kansas Bear (talk) 01:37, 6 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Leonardo III Tocco/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Sahaib3005 (talk · contribs) 07:11, 7 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

It meets the GA rules. I think that it passes. Sahaib3005 (talk) 07:11, 7 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Making a quick scan of short reviews, I definitely feel like this article warrants a source review of some substance. Kingsif (talk) 13:50, 7 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Kingsif, that's fine by me (the nominator). Ichthyovenator (talk) 14:31, 7 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

New reviewer needed

I've changed the status of this nomination to "second opinion" in the hopes that a new reviewer can be found that way, since the original reviewer has withdrawn after the premature passage was reverted. A full GA review is needed, starting from scratch. Thank you. BlueMoonset (talk) 02:44, 16 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

BlueMoonset, thank you. Hopefully someone picks this up. Ichthyovenator (talk) 07:17, 16 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Ichthyovenator: I'll take it up. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 17:51, 25 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Iazyges: Thank you very much! :) Ichthyovenator (talk) 01:46, 30 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Criteria

GA Criteria

GA Criteria:

1
1.a Y

1.b Y
2
2.a Y

2.b Y

2.c Y

2.d Y
3
3.a Y

3.b Y
4
4.a Y
5
5.a Y
6
6.a Y

6.b Y

No DAB links Y
No dead links Y
No missing citations Y

Discussion

Nicol, Donald M. is not incorporated into the text, suggest moving it from the Bibliography section to a new further reading section. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 18:01, 25 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Removed entirely given that the book is not that relevant to Leonardo III specifically unless it's used to support something. Ichthyovenator (talk) 01:46, 30 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Prose Suggestions

Please note that almost all of these are suggestions, and can be implemented or ignored at your discretion. Any changes I deem necessary for the article to pass GA standards I will bold.

Lede

were conquered by the Ottomans already in 1449, in Leonardo's first year of ruling suggest removing already and changing in Leonardo's first year of ruling to in the first year of Leonardo's reign.

Done. Ichthyovenator (talk) 01:46, 30 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

by four regents for several years to me this seemed to mean a succession of four people, whereas the body seems to say that the four ruled at the same time, suggest by a four-person regency council for several years. (link regency council if change is made.)

Yeah, they were regents at the same time. Done. Ichthyovenator (talk) 01:46, 30 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

ensuring that Leonardo's islands became one of the most prosperous regions in Greece suggest changing to allowing Leonardo's islands to become one of the most prosperous regions in Greece

Changed. Ichthyovenator (talk) 01:46, 30 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

backfired catastrophically in that it alienated Venice, who did not wish to see additional Neapolitan influence in Greece suggest backfired catastrophically in that it alienated Venice, who opposed increased Neapolitan influence in Greece.

Changed. Ichthyovenator (talk) 01:46, 30 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Foreseeing the futility of fighting the Ottomans don't know if foresight works best here, suggest Viewing opposition to the Ottomans as futile

Changed. Ichthyovenator (talk) 01:46, 30 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

with the despot ending up in considerable debt and eventually losing all the lands he had acquired man could not catch a break.
crushed as his house collapsed on top of him I had not read this when I wrote the earlier comment. That man must have sailed through purgatory.

All non-Ottoman rulers in the Balkans were quite unlucky at this time but I agree that it really is incredible just how much bad luck befell this poor man. Ichthyovenator (talk) 01:46, 30 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Background

In 1411, the ruler of the town of Ioannina (and Carlo I's uncle), Esau de' Buondelmonti, who ruled with the title of 'despot', died suggest Carlo I's uncle, Esau de' Buondelmonti, who ruled the town Ioannina as despot, died in 1411.

Changed. Ichthyovenator (talk) 01:46, 30 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Biography

Accession and early reign

the four governors whom Carlo II had appointed to serve as regents for his son suggest the four governors whom Carlo II had appointed to form the regency council for his son.

Changed. Ichthyovenator (talk) 01:46, 30 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

one governor even offering to sell his island to the Venetians was this in exchange for aid, or simple profit? Would also suggest adding the name of the governor, if known. suggest with [Governor] even offering to sell his island to the Venetians in order to acquire military aid/an alliance.

Ostensibly in exchange for aid. The governor who attempted to seal this particular deal was whoever ruled the island of Lefkada but I don't know which of the four regents this was. Ichthyovenator (talk) 01:46, 30 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

the Ottomans moved quicker suggest the Ottomans struck before an agreement could be concluded.

Changed. Ichthyovenator (talk) 01:46, 30 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Ottoman conquest clear, suggest further Ottoman conquest clear,

Added. Ichthyovenator (talk) 01:46, 30 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

and in becoming a honorary citizen of the republic suggest and in doing so became a honorary citizen of the republic.

Changed. Ichthyovenator (talk) 01:46, 30 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Staving off Ottoman conquest

though it was probably mainly due to the Ottomans being busy with conquering other Balkan realms during this time. suggest though it is more likely due to the Ottomans' preoccupation with the conquest of other Balkan realms during this period.

Changed. Ichthyovenator (talk) 01:46, 30 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

and himself according to one account being imprisoned in Corinth suggest and, according to one account, resulting in his imprisonment in Corinth

Changed. Ichthyovenator (talk) 01:46, 30 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

their own more or less autonomous communities suggest changing more or less to somewhat

Done. Ichthyovenator (talk) 01:46, 30 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The welcoming of the refugees and Ottoman attention being directed elsewhere ensured that whereas the mainland was being devastated by war, Leonardo's islands flourished in peace suggest The enthusiastic reception of refugees and lack of attention from the Ottomans ensured that even while the mainland was devastated by war, Leonardo's islands flourished in peace.

Changed. Ichthyovenator (talk) 01:46, 30 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

rather than just a despot or count palatine suggest rather than a mere despot or count palatine

Changed. Ichthyovenator (talk) 01:46, 30 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Life in exile

had hired between the Botteghe Oscure and the Via Pellicciaria hired? Perhaps leased?

Yeah, they're the same word in my native language so that's where the mix-up comes from. Changed. Ichthyovenator (talk) 01:46, 30 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Ah, I had wondered about that. I noticed also you tend to drop "of" in front of words; the sentence will still work grammatically but seems odd as a native English speaker because you just expect an "of" there. Interesting. Regardless, passing the article now. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 02:41, 30 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, I'll ascribe that to the "language barrier" as well, thank you for the review! :) Ichthyovenator (talk) 16:44, 30 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

That is all of my suggestions.