Talk:Lemon (automobile)

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Badly Done

This article was quite badly done, I've re-written it in a minimal form. Just thinking, it might be better to move this to 'lemon (car)' rather than having 'lemon car' as the subject.

Absolutely, I've never done a page move, but if it doesn't get done soon, I may make this my first.

Fox1 12:50, 25 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure the ads were in the 60s, they were possibly the 70s, I will check and then update the page at some point.

I really don't see the relevance of a random car image to this article either. - BrandonR 02:11, August 25, 2005 (UTC)

I've removed it at least twice, let's hope it sticks this time. If the editor who added it can find a picture of an actual "lemon," that would be appropriate for the article, but we can't just include a random auto and say it "could be a lemon."

Fox1 12:50, 25 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Historical info?

Was there any discussion of the history of the term on the previous editions? Seems a good thing to include...SB Johnny 14:01, 8 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I request too, why "Lemon"? - willie

I could be mistaken, but I was under the impression that "lemon" came from the Edsel the "face" of which looks like it just ate a lemon. I have no citation for this, though; it could be wrong. 72.74.204.205 15:38, 6 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

the lemon —Preceding unsigned comment added by 145.14.114.131 (talk) 16:31, 30 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I came to this page with a suspicion but can´t find a real explanation for the term here. I had the idea that the term lemon might have been a pun on french constructor Citroen, as the french word "Citron" (pronounced differently) does in fact mean "lemon". Just an idea, of course. 213.166.53.142 (talk) 17:05, 20 October 2011 (UTC) I concur. My great uncle Thomas Olsen was a WW I vet. He said that when the Doughboys saw the Citroen, they asked what it meant. Somebody said 'lemon' and it stuck. What they saw were over four years old and worked to death. So, they died all of time. Hence, they called a bad car a lemon when they come back. That narrative does not fit the fact that Citroen was founded in 1919. All in all, the 1960 quote is wrong. We lived in Glen Oak, WI when I was very small. My dad painted a car yellow because it was a lemon.[reply]

CarFax

I feel pretty positive someone from CarFax came in and suggested themselves as the place to find out about lemons. Very clever guys as it is somewhat relevant to the subject... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.226.181.41 (talk) 17:36, 24 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Vandalism?

the paragraph stating "...Lemon law was initially named after Mr John Lemon..." may be a hoax added on "22:47, 10 April 2008" by "96.228.138.15". I was unable to find anything online to even remotely substantiate this paragraph. 220.76.15.88 (talk) 18:52, 14 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I removed this paragraph 220.76.15.253 (talk) 18:22, 17 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Why just for cars?

I've heard people use the term for other defective merchantdise too, not just cars. GO-PCHS-NJROTC ^(Messages) 20:46, 26 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It was certainly in use for televisions. Around 1980 a major manufacturer of televisions frequently replaced any TV set that had frequent repair problems because such a TV would cost the company huge amounts of money. It was generally seen as good business to replace the defective TV set with another and hope for the best. Such was good for customer relations (although not as good as having a better repair rate) and good for avoiding getting burned for huge and frequent repairs under warranty. The TV manufacturer was known for innovative technology allowing good picture quality, but that technology had bugs.

I saw that myself as a retail salesman of televisions. I specifically called any TV set that that company had to replace a "lemon". --Paul from Michigan (talk) 01:24, 7 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I call bad electronics lemons also. Maybe the article should be called Lemon (defective merchandise)? - Akadewboy (talk) 20:44, 3 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Why are some cars lemons and others not

You can say a lot about why your car is a lemon, but here stands one tried and true, it's called tolerance in Manufacturing. Many parts on automobiles abide by tolerance levels when made. Lets say you have a part you are manufacturing that has a tolerance level of plus or minus 5. A screw for example will still work it the threads are plus or minus 5 percent of dead center, dead center being a perfect part. Have you ever tried putting a screw back in that came out of something and it fits but not exactly? You wonder, did they ship the wrong screws? No I guess not, it goes in but a little tight and off center. Now think about this, your car is made from parts just like this, lots of parts. Now take into consideration, the laws of probability. Most cars have a few parts that may be at the top or bottom of the tolerance level, but for the most part, they are closer to dead center. Mathematically, somewhere down the road you are going to have some cars that have parts built closer to the edge of the tolerance level than not and a few that have almost all the parts at the edge of the tolerance levels of say 5 plus or 5 minus. Wow, you just got a lemon. Some manufacturers are aware of this and have changed their tolerance levels of manufacturing to 2 plus or minus, thus manufacturing superior products all the way around. Two companies I know of, The Boeing Company and Toyota have done this and both companies have this well documented. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.175.66.56 (talk) 06:00, 21 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Why are some cars lemons and others not

You can say a lot about why your car is a lemon, but here stands one tried and true, it's called tolerance in Manufacturing. Many parts on automobiles abide by tolerance levels when made. Lets say you have a part you are manufacturing that has a tolerance level of plus or minus 5. A screw for example will still work it the threads are plus or minus 5 percent of dead center, dead center being a perfect part. Have you ever tried putting a screw back in that came out of something and it fits but not exactly? You wonder, did they ship the wrong screws? No I guess not, it goes in but a little tight and off center. Now think about this, your car is made from parts just like this, lots of parts. Now take into consideration, the laws of probability. Most cars have a few parts that may be at the top or bottom of the tolerance level, but for the most part, they are closer to dead center. Mathematically, somewhere down the road you are going to have some cars that have parts built closer to the edge of the tolerance level than not and a few that have almost all the parts at the edge of the tolerance levels of say 5 plus or 5 minus. Wow, you just got a lemon. Some manufacturers are aware of this and have changed their tolerance levels of manufacturing to 2 plus or minus, thus manufacturing superior products all the way around. Two companies I know of, The Boeing Company and Toyota have done this and both companies have this well documented.

216.175.66.56 (talk) 06:04, 21 December 2009 (UTC)CoyoteTraveler[reply]

George Akerlof's "Lemon" paper

George Akerlof's paper is mentioned but there is absolutely no explanation on that paper's impact on the term "lemon". Is the article insinuating or stating that the term lemon came from this paper? If so, it should be stated more explicitly and referenced. If not, that entire "Market" section should be removed as irrelevant. (Transce080 (talk) 11:31, 31 May 2010 (UTC))[reply]

Done - sections merged and puffery removed. Baffle gab1978 (talk) 16:51, 12 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Etymology section

The entire Etymology section needed rearrangement and a rewrite due to contradictions and errors/omissions. The original reference provided for the Koenig "lemon ad" statement was insufficient and didn't describe anything about the creation of the ad --- it was simply the ad itself, but I left it & found a better citation to add to it. Also note that Wikipedia's articles on the creators of the ad (Helmut Krone & Julian Koenig - note that Krone's name was left out earlier) go into more detail and it's generally accepted that they were the co-creators of the ad at their pages, and those pages have their own citations to back up those claims, so I didn't add them here and simply added hyperlinks at their names for more info. The campaign was run by their boss & a principal of the firm DDB, William Bernbach per the citation I added, and therefore he should be given credit as it's probable that being the leader of the ad team, many ideas were thrown out there and he was the one who made the decision to run with the ad that was chosen, which is what the citation purports. George Akerlof's paper came many years after this, and simply because a website bio erroneously claims that he coined the term is not a proper citation especially when it can be proven that the info on that page is verifiably incorrect, so I removed the wording claiming him as the creator of the phrase. I left up his info about his writings on the idea of bad cars being lemons as pertinent to the article, but they need a citation.PhilOSophocle (talk) 14:08, 30 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

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