Talk:Legends of Tomorrow/Archive 2
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Matt Ryan
So, I see there is issue with Matt Ryan being listed on the main cast. I see the sources saying he's a series regular, and I saw the first episode where he was listed as a special guest. Now, either the news report jumped the gun and misreported him as a regular because someone said "he's joining the Legends in season 4", they changed their mind and bumped him back down to recurring at some point, or they just plan to list as him as "special guest" for the whole season. BIGNOLE (Contact me) 16:46, 31 October 2018 (UTC)
- It's not uncommon for certain actors to have that designation for an entire season.. or even for a whole run of a series in some situations such as Heather Locklear on Melrose Place. Spanneraol (talk) 17:30, 31 October 2018 (UTC)
- Was'nt Heather Locklear's special designation because she was a regular once? I don't know how common that would be to not get the same regular crediting (though be contractually stated to be a regular) as the other stars. It isn't like Matt Ryan has a history with the show itself. I mean, that credit is the same one he got for "Arrow". I'm not saying we need to change it now, but it's something to look at. Otherwise, we're saying that a random website's report could never be inaccurate...and I can think of far more times when reports were wrong on TV shows than I can of TV shows crediting people different than they are contracted to be. BIGNOLE (Contact me) 19:24, 31 October 2018 (UTC)
- Locklear wanted the special designation cause it made her stand out from the rest of the cast and gave her special status... could be the same here with Ryan. I don't much care one way or the other about the infobox.Spanneraol (talk) 19:50, 31 October 2018 (UTC)
- Was'nt Heather Locklear's special designation because she was a regular once? I don't know how common that would be to not get the same regular crediting (though be contractually stated to be a regular) as the other stars. It isn't like Matt Ryan has a history with the show itself. I mean, that credit is the same one he got for "Arrow". I'm not saying we need to change it now, but it's something to look at. Otherwise, we're saying that a random website's report could never be inaccurate...and I can think of far more times when reports were wrong on TV shows than I can of TV shows crediting people different than they are contracted to be. BIGNOLE (Contact me) 19:24, 31 October 2018 (UTC)
- It could be anyone one of those things. In any event, I feel that he should not be listed in the infobox until/unless he is credited as a main. Many sources said that Damien Darkh was going to be main last season, but he ended up being recurring. JDDJS (talk) 21:17, 31 October 2018 (UTC)
- Ryan's credit in the first two episodes has been "Special Appearance by", which is the same credit Neal McDonough had for season 3. We didn't call McDonough a member of the main cast, and unless Ryan starts being listed in the Starring section with the others, he shouldn't be listed in the infobox with the main cast. BlueMoonset (talk) 07:23, 1 November 2018 (UTC)
- Just noting that we've always listed those who have been credited as just "starring". When we have a list of stars followed by "with" the people in the "with" section are also listed. For example, in NCIS: Los Angeles both LL Cool J and Linda Hunt were credited as "with". The specific order was Chris O'Donnell, Peter Cambor, Daniela Ruah, Adam Jamal Craig with LL Cool J and Linda Hunt. "Also starring", "special appearance by" etc are not listed. --AussieLegend (✉) 08:00, 1 November 2018 (UTC)
- Is there a guideline for that? I can't recall it. I recall a number of shows with a member of the main cast that was credited as "special" for an entire season. -- AlexTW 08:07, 1 November 2018 (UTC)
- Just noting that we've always listed those who have been credited as just "starring". When we have a list of stars followed by "with" the people in the "with" section are also listed. For example, in NCIS: Los Angeles both LL Cool J and Linda Hunt were credited as "with". The specific order was Chris O'Donnell, Peter Cambor, Daniela Ruah, Adam Jamal Craig with LL Cool J and Linda Hunt. "Also starring", "special appearance by" etc are not listed. --AussieLegend (✉) 08:00, 1 November 2018 (UTC)
- Ryan's credit in the first two episodes has been "Special Appearance by", which is the same credit Neal McDonough had for season 3. We didn't call McDonough a member of the main cast, and unless Ryan starts being listed in the Starring section with the others, he shouldn't be listed in the infobox with the main cast. BlueMoonset (talk) 07:23, 1 November 2018 (UTC)
So what happens if they list him as "special guest" for the whole season? The season itself seems themed around the need for the Constantine character to appear. What with the whole demons and magical monster things, that's his thing. Also the promotional poster for season 4 clearly shows him along with the main cast. Has there ever been an instance where someone who isn't main cast has appeared on a poster like that? Esuka323 (talk) 12:38, 1 November 2018 (UTC)
- I'm not sure what to do if they credit him as "special guest" the whole season, but terminology-wise, there is a difference between being a "guest" and being a "regular", regardless of whether or not you appear in 10 or 20 episodes. Again, I'm not sure of other shows where someone was listed as a "guest" but was actually a series regular. I'm not talking about our own personal opinion that they are a regular because they appear in all or most of the episodes, but actually contracted (or at least reported to be) as one. BIGNOLE (Contact me) 16:03, 1 November 2018 (UTC)
- Slightly different circumstances but, in The Suite Life on Deck one actor appeared in 48 of the 71 episodes throughout all 3 seasons but was credited as a recurring character only (I'd have to check the actual episodes to see how he was credited) and not as starring despite clearly being a significant character so he's not in the infobox. In The 100 an actor played a major character in 2 seasons and yet was only credited as recurring so she's not in the infobox. Whether an actor is included in the infobox has nothing to do with the number of episodes or the strength of the role, it's all about how they were credited. This is why WP:TVCAST says ""main" cast members are determined by the series producers (not by popularity, screen time, or episode count)". --AussieLegend (✉) 16:29, 1 November 2018 (UTC)
- That's my point. People can recurring forever, they could even recurring 90% of the episodes. That has more to do with crediting. That's why Marlon Brando is "starring" in Superman, yet has like 8 minutes of screen time. BIGNOLE (Contact me) 16:33, 1 November 2018 (UTC)
- Slightly different circumstances but, in The Suite Life on Deck one actor appeared in 48 of the 71 episodes throughout all 3 seasons but was credited as a recurring character only (I'd have to check the actual episodes to see how he was credited) and not as starring despite clearly being a significant character so he's not in the infobox. In The 100 an actor played a major character in 2 seasons and yet was only credited as recurring so she's not in the infobox. Whether an actor is included in the infobox has nothing to do with the number of episodes or the strength of the role, it's all about how they were credited. This is why WP:TVCAST says ""main" cast members are determined by the series producers (not by popularity, screen time, or episode count)". --AussieLegend (✉) 16:29, 1 November 2018 (UTC)
Another related question is how we should list him on List of Legends of Tomorrow characters. Personally I say recurring like we did for Darkh. JDDJS (talk) 04:06, 2 November 2018 (UTC)
- JDDJS, do you have a reliable source referring to him as recurring? -- AlexTW 04:21, 2 November 2018 (UTC)
- If you prefer guest, we can use that instead. The point is that he's not being credited as a main character, and therefore should not be listed as such. JDDJS (talk) 04:33, 2 November 2018 (UTC)
- Nor is he being credited as a guest among the starring actors. Reliable sources need to back up whatever he's listed as. -- AlexTW 08:32, 2 November 2018 (UTC)
- Well, technically he is being credited as a "guest"...just a "special guest". BIGNOLE (Contact me) 14:13, 2 November 2018 (UTC)
- "Special Appearance by". Not "Special Guest". -- AlexTW 14:42, 2 November 2018 (UTC)
- According to WP:TVCAST,
If reliable sources cannot adequately distinguish between recurring or guest roles, then local consensus should determine their status.
So whether Ryan is considered Guest or Recurring will depend upon us, assuming reliable sources cannot be found to distinguish between them. However, "Special Appearance by" has already been deemed not to be the equivalent of a starring role per what happened with McDonough. He was considered Recurring, which seems appropriate here. Note that whatever is decided here should be carried over to the List of Legends of Tomorrow characters. BlueMoonset (talk) 15:41, 2 November 2018 (UTC)
- According to WP:TVCAST,
- "Special Appearance by". Not "Special Guest". -- AlexTW 14:42, 2 November 2018 (UTC)
- Well, technically he is being credited as a "guest"...just a "special guest". BIGNOLE (Contact me) 14:13, 2 November 2018 (UTC)
- Nor is he being credited as a guest among the starring actors. Reliable sources need to back up whatever he's listed as. -- AlexTW 08:32, 2 November 2018 (UTC)
- If you prefer guest, we can use that instead. The point is that he's not being credited as a main character, and therefore should not be listed as such. JDDJS (talk) 04:33, 2 November 2018 (UTC)
At minimum, I would say lets let this play out a few more episodes and see if he maintains the "special appearance" credit or not. For all we know, this "special appearance" could be tied to a previous contract with the CW and it's going through that. I can think of Erica Durance as an example of someone that was a regular who had an episode limit placed on her, and then I can think of Kristen Kreuk (both from Smallville) who was a regular in season 7, left early because of other commitments, and then finished out her remaining 3 or 4 episodes on her contract as a "special appearance" in season 8 of Smallville. BIGNOLE (Contact me) 15:53, 2 November 2018 (UTC)
- This is something that has bugged me before. "Special appearance by" does not say anything about being a guest star, not even close, and us saying that is the case is WP:OR. My position is that if we cannot work out their billing from the onscreen credit (which I feel is the case here) then we need to go back to the reliable sources. This would mean that we list him as a regular, but maybe make a note that he had this special credit. Since this is not the first time the CW has used this credit for someone that all the reluable sources said was a regular, I think that would be the correct outcome for this situation. - adamstom97 (talk) 02:12, 3 November 2018 (UTC)
- That is also where I'd come down. The Heather Locklear-on-Melrose situation is very relevant: she was credited as "Special Guest Star" for the entire time she was on the series. But she was main cast. This issue has come up before, with some people not understanding that sometimes actors ask for "special" crediting like this (for various reasons), but they are still "main cast". Now, one issue here is the sloppiness of terms used by the entertainment press – "series regular" is a nebulous term that can mean "main cast", but it can also mean "recurring role". ("Joining the cast..." is another wonderful chestnut that the entertainment press uses, and can mean almost anything from "main role" to a "guest role"!!) In this case, I am assuming that sourcing saying Ryan is a "series regular" mean that it's actually a "main role", but it may take several more episodes before we're sure... But, in any case, "Special Appearance by" crediting absolutely does not "rule out" a main cast role. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 03:02, 3 November 2018 (UTC)
- If the credit is anything other than "Starring", I don't see how they can be considered "Main cast" as Wikipedia determines it per WP:TVCAST. Just the use of the word "Special" would seem to indicate something not regular or ordinary. If his credit should change to Starring, that's another thing entirely. BlueMoonset (talk) 06:17, 6 November 2018 (UTC)
- Does Legends use "Starring" for the rest of the cast? Or does it just go straight into names? -- AlexTW 06:38, 6 November 2018 (UTC)
- AlexTheWhovian, they use Starring. For example, in the season finale this past spring, "Starring" was in a smaller font above Brandon Routh's name (the first credit), then Caity, Maisie, Amy, Tala, Keiynan, "With" above Nick Zano, "And" above Dominic Purcell, then "Special Appearance by" above Neal McDonough, "Special Guest Star" above Arthur Darvill, then Franz Drameh, Matt Ryan, and then "Guest Starring" above Courtney Ford and a whole bunch of other guest stars. It's pretty standard for CW shows to have a bunch under Starring with one or two in the "With" position, and then go into the remaining credits, sometimes without any Special Appearance or Special Guest Star and only a name or two after Guest Starring. BlueMoonset (talk) 06:57, 6 November 2018 (UTC)
- Has this season used "Starring" though? I can't recall. Also, if this helps or hurts anything, in the last episode, "Dancing Queen", Maisie Richardson-Sellers was credited with "Special Appearance by" as the first thing in the end credits. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 17:31, 7 November 2018 (UTC)
- AlexTheWhovian, they use Starring. For example, in the season finale this past spring, "Starring" was in a smaller font above Brandon Routh's name (the first credit), then Caity, Maisie, Amy, Tala, Keiynan, "With" above Nick Zano, "And" above Dominic Purcell, then "Special Appearance by" above Neal McDonough, "Special Guest Star" above Arthur Darvill, then Franz Drameh, Matt Ryan, and then "Guest Starring" above Courtney Ford and a whole bunch of other guest stars. It's pretty standard for CW shows to have a bunch under Starring with one or two in the "With" position, and then go into the remaining credits, sometimes without any Special Appearance or Special Guest Star and only a name or two after Guest Starring. BlueMoonset (talk) 06:57, 6 November 2018 (UTC)
- Does Legends use "Starring" for the rest of the cast? Or does it just go straight into names? -- AlexTW 06:38, 6 November 2018 (UTC)
- If the credit is anything other than "Starring", I don't see how they can be considered "Main cast" as Wikipedia determines it per WP:TVCAST. Just the use of the word "Special" would seem to indicate something not regular or ordinary. If his credit should change to Starring, that's another thing entirely. BlueMoonset (talk) 06:17, 6 November 2018 (UTC)
- That is also where I'd come down. The Heather Locklear-on-Melrose situation is very relevant: she was credited as "Special Guest Star" for the entire time she was on the series. But she was main cast. This issue has come up before, with some people not understanding that sometimes actors ask for "special" crediting like this (for various reasons), but they are still "main cast". Now, one issue here is the sloppiness of terms used by the entertainment press – "series regular" is a nebulous term that can mean "main cast", but it can also mean "recurring role". ("Joining the cast..." is another wonderful chestnut that the entertainment press uses, and can mean almost anything from "main role" to a "guest role"!!) In this case, I am assuming that sourcing saying Ryan is a "series regular" mean that it's actually a "main role", but it may take several more episodes before we're sure... But, in any case, "Special Appearance by" crediting absolutely does not "rule out" a main cast role. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 03:02, 3 November 2018 (UTC)
They use starring this season. Richardson-Sellers was likely credited in the end credits rather than the beginning so as to not give away her appearance in the episode. Obviously I don't know for sure, but I expect her to get a regular starring appearance in the next episode. JDDJS (talk) 19:04, 7 November 2018 (UTC)
List of Legends of Tomorrow listed at Redirects for discussion
An editor has asked for a discussion to address the redirect List of Legends of Tomorrow. Please participate in the redirect discussion if you wish to do so. Gonnym (talk) 18:06, 1 July 2019 (UTC)
LaMonica Garrett as main character
LaMonica Garrett only appears in the crossover that's not even considered a regular episode. Listing him as a main character is WP:UNDUE JDDJS (talk to me • see what I've done) 20:17, 3 February 2020 (UTC)
- Same reply here as the Batwoman discussion. -- /Alex/21 21:56, 3 February 2020 (UTC)
There's an RFC at Talk:Batwoman_(TV_series)#Request_for_comment about whether or not to consider LaMonica Garrett a guest or main character for Batwoman and Legends of Tomorrow. JDDJS (talk to me • see what I've done) 21:47, 4 February 2020 (UTC)
Ratings
When are you going to add the ratings for Season 5 and the time of when it airs? I haven't seen anyone add anything for the ratings. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 47.151.27.25 (talk) 21:29, 29 February 2020 (UTC)
Arrowverse renewed
Hello, Favre1fan93. Please pay attention to [1]. IKhitron (talk) 21:17, 3 February 2021 (UTC)