Talk:Legacy of Leonid Brezhnev

Deleted phrase

but support for the ideals of communism and Marxism-Leninism continued to be evident, even on the eve of his death.

This phrase is nothing but a piece of communist propaganda. Not to say, a vague one. Of course some supported it, even in United States. But in late soviet Union "ideals of communism " was matter of jokes rather than support among common people. Also, how it is related to Brezhnev's legacy? Also, how it was "evident"? In Pravda newspaper? Please do not restore contested text without supporting references. Lovok Sovok (talk) 21:44, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

I just referenced it, and no, the reference is not in the lead! --TIAYN (talk) 22:04, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

I don't see what supports your reverts in the references. It's much the opposite. 24.184.232.19 (talk) 22:16, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

It says fewer and fewer people believed, but that there were still believers there.. If you want to reword, please do. I reverted you back . --TIAYN (talk) 22:17, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

The changed phrasing makes sense and doesn't sound like communist propaganda. However believers into something are always there. Some even believe in rabbit's eggs. But this does not prove that it constitutes legacy of Brezhnev. Therefore I am still against this addition. This article is specificalyy about legacy of LB. YOu cannot put the whole history of the Soviet Union into this page. You have to add only facts that are proven to be direct consequences of LB, not just everything that happened at these times. Formally, even Gorbachev is a "legacy of Brezhnev": he became politician in Brezhnev's times. So you may claim that perestroika is legacy of Brezhnev as well.

Concluding my rant: everything which is not directly proved in refs that it is "legacy of Brezhnev" is to be rightfully deleted from this article. Lovok Sovok (talk) 23:03, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

Yes, there will need to be a reference that states that such material is directly related to the "legacy of Brezhnev". Also, the article owner should provide a direct quote from source that essentially states that "support for the ideals of communism and Marxism-Leninism continued to be evident" rather than continue to revert dozens of times in order to push this non-supported vagueness that he is reading into the book into the article. 24.184.232.19 (talk) 02:14, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

GA Review

The reviewer who is reviewing this article is blocked --TIAYN (talk) 17:27, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

This review is transcluded from Talk:Legacy of Leonid Brezhnev/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: KnowIG (talk) 09:33, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

GA review (see here for criteria)

1. It is reasonably well written.

   a (prose): b (MoS for lead, layout, word choice, fiction, and lists):

2. It is factually accurate and verifiable.

   a (references): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR):

   Have to assume good faith all references are offline and I don't have access to them.

3. It is broad in its coverage.

   a (major aspects): b (focused):

4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.

   Fair representation without bias:

5. It is stable.

   No edit wars, etc.:

6. It is illustrated by images, where possible and appropriate.

   a (images are tagged and non-free images have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):

7. Overall:

   Pass/Fail:

Disambig links

• Done Degradation
• Done Stagnation

Historians have expressed criticism for Brezhnev and his rule. The scholarly literature dealing with him is scarce and, with the exception of the period immediately after his ouster, overwhelmingly negative. Who has. examples please

I have no examples, but it is referenced (by the Bacon & Sandle 2002, p. 1. source) ...... --TIAYN (talk) 05:00, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

Very little has been written about Brezhnev in English, and even Russian literature.??? POV? OR?

It is referenced...... --TIAYN (talk) 05:00, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

Done consensus of his rule that was formed shortly. The consensus was what

None of that paragraph is referenced. The quotes are though. Unless the stuff is in there as well. You'll have to advise.

It is referenced...... --TIAYN (talk) 05:00, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

Reads rather like an accedmic paper.

Russian opinion polls when compared to his successors and predecessors. think some cold hard numbers are needed here so remove the second sentence and move it to after the numbers or to the final sentence of the paragraph

It is........... Have you read the section? --TIAYN (talk) 05:05, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

The reviewer who is reviewing this article is blocked --TIAYN (talk) 17:27, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

I'll get a new subpage going so people will actually notice there's no reviewer. Wizardman _{Operation Big Bear} 02:39, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

Citation tags

Please don't remove citation tags without addressing the issue. Lovok Sovok (talk) 15:37, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

Sorry, didn't read the above. YOu should have made a new section. Lovok Sovok (talk) 15:41, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

Still I disagree with the phrasing. You are referring to a 2002 book. Even if the statement in in was correct, this was 10 years ago. "Scarce" is a vague, inexact, time-bound opinion. It sounds like a grumble of a dissatisfied researcher (or, after reading, as a bragging of a proud researcer who "filled the gap"), rather than an encyclopedic info. Lovok Sovok (talk) 15:45, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

And finally, the claim of scarsity is plain false (at least for today), as a google books search readily shows. Of course, there is much more books about Stalin, but about Brezhnev (and his legacy, or, rather, consequences of his rule) are quite enough. Therefore I am going to delete the corresponding phrases. Lovok Sovok (talk) 15:52, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

Article title

The article title is catchy, however IMO it is good for a book, but not for an encyclopedic article. An indication for this is rather meaningless firt sentence: "The legacy of Leonid Ilyich Brezhnev .... began to become apparent soon after his death." It is just a placeholder for want of something informative. And by the way, who says so? And what it is "soon"? and how apparent? and why only after death? And so on.

I would suggest to rename it to something specific, such as "Consequences of Brezhnev's rule" or "Historical impact of Brezhnev's rule". Lovok Sovok (talk) 16:00, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

See Legacy of Pedro II of Brazil which is a GA. + you'll have to take searchability into account, no one will ever search consequences of Leonid Brezhnev rule. It should be noted that "consequences" and "historical impact" is just the same as "legacy" in any sense of the word. No reason to move, but those titles should be redirected to this page. --TIAYN (talk) 19:52, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

Brezhnev legacy Brezhnev's legacy are searchable terms, so I agree with you. However the first sentence (copied from Pedro) sucks. I will think how to replace it. Lovok Sovok (talk) 21:38, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

It looks better now :) --TIAYN (talk) 06:17, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

About Sandle and Bacon

I have read Sandle, Mark; Bacon, Edwin "Brezhnev Reconsidered." with interest. The overall impression is that of a solid work. Unfortunately there are quite a few factual errors in minor details. Fortunately, as far as I could see they are unimportant for the major issues, so I guess the authors didn't bother to double check (and wikipedia was not available at that time :-). Lovok Sovok (talk) 18:31, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

Should be merged into Leonid Brezhnev

After reading this and briefly scanning the Leonid Brezhnev article, I'd argue that this could be easily merged into the Leonid Brezhnev article. I mean, it would make that article more comprehensive, and it doesn't post that much WP:SIZE problems, at least not compared to other similar articles on very famous political dignitaries, the Brezhnev article is only slightly above 80KB size, far smaller than many other similar articles out there. But then again, I also think Lenin's article could easily be 2x expanded without splitting anything, as he was an extremely important international figure and important in many other aspects. –MuZemike 07:46, 27 March 2011 (UTC)

But the Brezhnev article is waiting for another expansion; before I do this I want to make the article smaller..... If the article doesn't become that much bigger after my second expansion effort I'll merge the article. --TIAYN (talk) 07:55, 27 March 2011 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Legacy of Leonid Brezhnev/GA2. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Wikipedian2 (talk) 15:31, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

Rate	Attribute	Review Comment
	1. Well-written:
	1a. the prose is clear, concise, and understandable to an appropriately broad audience; spelling and grammar are correct.
	1b. it complies with the Manual of Style guidelines for lead sections, layout, words to watch, fiction, and list incorporation.
	2. Verifiable with no original research:
	2a. it contains a list of all references (sources of information), presented in accordance with the layout style guideline.
	2b. reliable sources are cited inline. All content that could reasonably be challenged, except for plot summaries and that which summarizes cited content elsewhere in the article, must be cited no later than the end of the paragraph (or line if the content is not in prose).
	2c. it contains no original research.
	3. Broad in its coverage:
	3a. it addresses the main aspects of the topic.
	3b. it stays focused on the topic without going into unnecessary detail (see summary style).
	4. Neutral: it represents viewpoints fairly and without editorial bias, giving due weight to each.	The article appears to be very pro-Brezhnev, an alternate view is needed very much so.
	5. Stable: it does not change significantly from day to day because of an ongoing edit war or content dispute.
	6. Illustrated, if possible, by media such as images, video, or audio:
	6a. media are tagged with their copyright statuses, and valid non-free use rationales are provided for non-free content.
	6b. media are relevant to the topic, and have suitable captions.
	7. Overall assessment.	Overall, this article appears to meet what is expected of an article to become a 'Good Article'. The nature of the article means it be expected to be slightly bias, but this is not reason to deny the article its deserving status.

Wikipedian2 (talk) 15:31, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

Other matters

Some of these are little covered or not covered in the article.

• Soviet cinema underwent its golden age under Brezhnev.
• The War in Afghanistan - one of the USSR's biggest disasters. And later the West's.
• The Vietnam War - a success.
• Continued support for the space programme which despite Apollo performed very respectably against the USA. Support for science.
• Expansion of nuclear power generation, submarine fleet and the transformation of the Warsaw Pact into a quasi-autonomous federation. All of these had consequences which we still deal with.
• Corruption appears to have proliferated under him.
• Aggressive secularisation and atheism appears to have been less of a priority.

I hope this is an even handed list. It is all relevant to his legacy to the USSR and the present day region.

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