Talk:Leeds United F.C.–Manchester United F.C. rivalry

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Football: England / Manchester United Low‑importance

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Greater Manchester Low‑importance

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Yorkshire Low‑importance

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A fact from Leeds United F.C.–Manchester United F.C. rivalry appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the Did you know column on 14 February 2008, and was viewed approximately 4,425 times (disclaimer) (check views). The text of the entry was as follows:

Did you know... that the rivalry between Leeds United and Manchester United football clubs has its roots in the 15th century English civil war, the Wars of the Roses?

A record of the entry may be seen at Wikipedia:Recent additions/2008/February.

Wikipedia

Fair use rationale for Image:38193116 leedshaaalkeane300.jpg

Image:38193116 leedshaaalkeane300.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

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BetacommandBot (talk) 04:22, 12 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Fair use rationale for Image:AlanSmithLeedsUpset.jpg

Image:AlanSmithLeedsUpset.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

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BetacommandBot (talk) 18:47, 13 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Fair use rationale for Image:DenisLawRippedShirt.jpg

Image:DenisLawRippedShirt.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to ensure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

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BetacommandBot (talk) 21:41, 13 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Myth

Please stop peddling the myth that the Wars of the Roses were a conflict between Yorkshire and Lancashire. This is a modern reinterpretation of the actual warring parties, the House of York and the House of Lancaster, which were branches of the Plantagenet family named for the noble titles of their senior members, NOT for any strong territorial affiliation. I am sure that the Yorkshire/Lancashire rivalry has a number of reasons, but to state that it ultimately has to do with the Wars of the Roses is historical revisionism, and in a word, nonsense. Jonathan Oldenbuck (talk) 10:27, 14 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Hear, hear! The instant I read this, I was immensely skeptical. Sports teams don't need a historical basis to nurture rivalries, and it is incredibly unlikely that this is the cause. The closer the two teams are, geographically, the more likely there is to be a strong sense of rivalry. Michael.Urban (talk) 14:26, 14 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Sources say otherwise. The Wars of the Roses is indefinetly the basis of the Yorkshire vs. Lancashire rivalry and commonly cited as such, hence why each county adopted the symbol of each house. Also the myth that the two houses were somehow just French tourists with absoutely no connection to the counties is exactly that, myth. Richard III, the most famous Yorkist king, grew up at Middleham Castle in North Yorkshire. You can't change the feelings of the people from the two counties and what the media have picked up on and cite in their publications. - Yorkshirian (talk) 14:35, 14 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I have to say reading the two first comments in this section my impression is that these users do know in depth about the rivalry between the two counties. Yes the war of the roses was not between the two counties, but this has caused a rivalry between the two counties, with the two houses using of the names of the cities to which the counties adopted. The cricketing rivalry which has stood since the middle of the 19th century (therefore NOT a modern rivalry) existed due to the previous history between the houses and counties, and this rivalry has spread to other sports including football and rugby (league). The rivalry intensified between these two sides in particular as they are the two largest cities in the traditional counties, and also being caused by high-profile and silverware important matches being battled out on the pitch during the 1960s and 1970s. Yes this rivalry has some of it's history in the later half of the 20th century but the unique situation between Yorkshire and Lancashire is also a big influence on this rivalry also. Chappy^T_C 23:13, 15 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

First, I am a Yorkshireman. Richard III did indeed grow up at Middleham, and also spent much time at Sheriff Hutton. His "Lancastrian" opponent, Henry Tudor, however, was a Welshman. The ubiquity of the rose badges, and the very name "War of the Roses", are a 19th century invention, or at least an exaggeration. I am not arguing that modern writers find a neat parallel between the Wars of the Roses and any modern Yorkshire/Lancashire tiff (by modern, I mean relatively modern, ie much more recent than a 15th century civil war), and that people do seem to identify with this. But the Wars were not about Yorkshire/Lancashire, they were about competing claimants to the throne. Do most people from Yorkshire still think Richard III was a great guy who never killed his nephew? No. Do most people from Lancashire still gnash their teeth when they think of the defeat at Towton? No. By all means state in the article that the Wars and the modern rivalry are often perceived to be linked, obviously, as the term "Roses rivalry" appears to be well documented, but please make it clear that the Wars of the Roses were not fought by or about Yorkshire and Lancashire, which was my initial objection. Regards, Jonathan Oldenbuck (talk) 12:06, 18 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Even if it were a "Yorkshire v Lancashire" rivalry, it fails to explain why these two clubs in particular should be strong rivals. Why not Manchester City and Sheffield Wednesday for example? --Jameboy (talk) 17:22, 4 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I would suggest that the reason is that Man Utd play in red and Leeds play in white, mirroring the colours of the symbolic roses. Nevertheless, it is overwhelmingly likely that the rivalry between the two clubs began in earnest only in the early 1970s, when Leeds had their spell as one of the top teams in England almost immediately after United had become the first English team to win the European Cup. Journalists would have then cottoned on to the parallels with the red rose of Lancaster and the white rose of York and retconned in a relationship. – Pee Jay 18:37, 4 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

- The above is incorrect. Leeds United play in white because their most successful manager, Don Revie, wished to emulate the great Real Madrid side and changed the team colours from blue & yellow to white as a psychological tip of the hat to them** —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.15.170.119 (talk) 17:30, 25 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

To those (like myself) who come from neither Yorkshire or Lancashire I always presumed this was a real rivalry. There is the Yorkshire vs Lancashire cricket rivalry to, and I believe some rivalries between Rugby League teams. I myself believe it is due to the geographical proximity of the counties and nothing to do with the war hundreds of years ago. Cls14 (talk) 16:54, 16 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

This article is largely bollocks. The particular bitter rivalry between Leeds and Man U has absolutely nothing to do with Wars of the Roses and I wish idiots would stop saying this. The Wars of the Roses was NOT a war between Yorkshire and Lancashire! Get it? Unfortunately 95% of supporters of either club are too thick to be able to tell you anything about the War of the Roses anyway. And Leeds U and Man U are not exclusive representatives of these counties. In fact Man U play down the 'local' angle more seeing themselves as a national and international product.

Before the 1970s Leeds fans didn't particularly hate Man U with any more venom than similar rivals in the north of England such as Man City, Everton or Liverpool. The problem really developed with both clubs hooligan problems in the 1970s and was aggravated by the perceived way the national media devoted a disproportionate amount of attention to Man U even when they were pretty mediocre while at the same time the same media tended to regard Leeds a second rate club.

And the colour of the shirts has never had anything to do with it either. Leeds have only played in white since the early sixties at the wish of Don Revie to look like Real Madrid who were the best team in the world at that time. And the Leeds shirt badge has only featured a white rose since 1981. Prior to 1971 Leeds badges always featured civic symbols of the city of Leeds. (217.42.2.161 (talk) 16:40, 26 December 2010 (UTC))[reply]

Man United fans?

Are there any Man United fans on Wikipedia who have access to statistics which are needed in the article, such as most appearences and most goals? If that is filled in this should easily pass a GA review and maybe even be at featured level. - Yorkshirian (talk) 23:14, 5 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Bias

As i would of expected, there is a bit of bias in this article. Best to stay away from reverting it, i am doing anyway. Whilst on the subject, i agree with Yorkshirian, most appearences and most goals is worthless and it's not even accurate (Leeds United: ?). If it's unknown for Leeds, then i would get rid of this. But i better not edit anything myself without making the article messy. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.99.231.37 (talk) 18:41, 3 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Delete this article

This article really shows the problem with Wikipedia. It is a load of codswallop but it is published here as though it is accepted fact.

The supposed super rivalry between Leeds and Man U fans is in fact very one sided and exists for the most part only the minds of the Leeds fans. Most Man U fans don't give a toss about Leeds and view their main northern rivals as being Liverpool. I would be absolutely certain that this article was created by a Leeds supporter and not a Man U one. Leeds fans only started the 'HATE' against Man U when there own relatively short lived success was being to wane in the late 70s/early 80s. The simple truth is that Man U are a bigger, more important and far more successful club than Leeds and are always likely to be so. The 'HATE' of Leeds fans is really no more than envy and a perverse way of them trying to gain some reflected importance. IMO this piece is a vanity article designed to make Leeds look more important than they are and should be deleted. (86.128.59.192 (talk) 16:30, 1 January 2011 (UTC))[reply]

"We are the pride of all Europe, the cock of the north. We hate the Scousers, the Cockneys of course (and Leeds!)" as the song goes. The rivalry is still ongoing up here in Manchester, understandable if London reds don't see it that way. Del_♉sion23 (talk) 16:19, 28 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The "[a]nd Leeds" part was only added in 1991-92. 'WATPOAE' only dates back to 1976, and never mentioned Leeds originally. --Scherben808 (talk) 19:16, 4 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Leeds United A.F.C. Reserves and Youth Team which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 12:44, 16 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Honours section?

Should we include one? Every other rivalry page has one. Davefelmer (talk) 05:45, 2 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

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Leeds united

Leeds United were founded in 1919. The rivalry between Man united and Leeds United has being going for years and years and the rivalry is sometimes called the rivalry of the roses. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A00:23C5:B519:8A01:61D6:DFC6:45C4:6CC4 (talk) 17:11, 23 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]