Talk:Lebensohl

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Format

Hmm - the contents seems to be messed up. What have I done wrong? Cambion 14:10, 16 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Looked OK to me, except that WP:LEAD was overlong. I restructured it a bit—is that what you wanted? Duja 14:20, 16 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Meaning of 2NT followed by new suit bid above overcaller's bid

I think that the consensus for this bid is invitational, not forcing, but denying a stopper. Support of this is at [1], [2], [3] (just taking the first few google links). I changed the page appropriately.

Which sequences shows a stopper? Which are signoff, forcing or inviting

You and your partner should have an agreement about what shows and what denies a stopper. But most people play: http://homepage.mac.com/bridgeguys/Conventions/Lebensohl.html

direct cuebid is stayman and denies stopper
first 2NT and the cuebid shows stopper
direct 3NT denies stopper
first 2Nt and the 3Nt promises stopper

forcing, invite or sign-off ?

suit at the 2-level is signoff
suit after 2NT (lower ranking than the overcalled suit) is signoff
suit after 2nT (higher ranking than the overcalled suit) in invite
direct bid of 3 of a suit aís forcing at least for 1 round

So after 1NT 2spades you have no invite only forcing (3H) or sign-off (2NT and later 3H)

After 1NT 2hearts you have 3 possibilities:

2 spades (signoff)
3 spades (forcing at least 1 round)
2NT and later 3 spades after partners 3 club-relay (invite)

Xx1943 (talk) 09:32, 11 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with your treatment here although where I come from it's about 50:50 whether people play 2NT as showing or denying (I make sure I agree it when I sit down). Your edits made the article inconsistent so I've restored the consistent version. TBH I don't think it matters which version we describe. Any thoughts people?Cambion (talk) 15:33, 11 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Where I come from, everyone plays the "fast denies" version, and every book I've seen uses "fast denies." I've changed it accordingly. 140.180.17.177 (talk) 17:23, 9 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Etymology of "Lebensohl"

The suggested German etymology of the word "Lebensohl" is both amusing and more than a little far-fetched. To start with, the German word for "foot" is not "Sohl" but "Fuß" or "Fuss". "Sohl" means "sole". GdB (talk) 15:00, 4 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Agree. Most conventions in bridge are atributed to individuals or are acronyms. I have added a 'citation needed' tag and will remove the material in due course if non is provided. Newwhist (talk) 21:37, 29 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Material removed and stored below for possible reinstatement if a verifiable source is cited. Newwhist (talk) 15:42, 17 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

"Another possible origin is from German or Yiddish. Lebensohl is the concatenation of the German words for to live and foot, implying that the bid is a way to get responder's "foot in the door" during the auction. This origin could explain why the convention is often written in lower-case (lebensohl), although this explanation is far from certain since German nouns are always capitalized. It is, however, consistent with the adaptation of another Yiddish word, kibitzer, into common bridge (and chess) parlance.^{[citation needed]}"

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Incomprehensible tables

What do the tables with headings of bid strain@#level mean? They are not at all clear to an amateur player and seem to use overly specific terminology, going against WP:NOTMANUAL. Having 2 tables in an article with one saying it should replace the latter is a terrible way to organise an article, and I would suggest removing one of them. Spike 'em (talk) 13:06, 19 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

If the table needs to be improved, rather than add a table with heading "Proposed simpler summary, and more flexible and frequently occurring NegativeX to replace rare cuebid" / "For clarity and memory ease, the first table below is proposed to replace the second one." the table should be discussed on this table first, not inserted straight onto the page. Spike 'em (talk) 13:09, 19 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, I'm just going to move the work in progress here for people to improve / discuss:

*For clarity and memory ease, the first table below is proposed to replace the second one.*
Responder holds	bid strain@2level	2NT-3♣ relay, then bid strain@3level	bid strain@3level
5+cardSuit available at 2level (ladder allows 3 ways to show this suit):	To play	Invite	GameForce
5+cardSuit NOT available at 2level (ladder allows only 2 ways to show this suit):	-	less than GameForce	GameForce
No 4+cardMajor GameForce strength	-	3NT, slow shows^† stopper	3NT, fast denies^† stopper

Spike 'em (talk) 16:46, 19 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

And

Responder holds	bid strain@2level	2NT-3♣ relay, then bid strain@3level	bid strain@3level
4+cardSuit available at 2level (ladder allows 3 ways to show this suit):	0-7p	8-11p and FOUR cards	8-11p and FIVE+ cards
4+cardSuit NOT available at 2level (ladder allows only 2 ways to show this suit):	-	0-7p	8-11p
4card Major GameForce (Stayman)	-	CUE, slow shows^† stopper	CUE, fast denies^† stopper
No 4+cardMajor GameForce strength	-	3NT, slow shows^† stopper	3NT, fast denies^† stopper

Spike 'em (talk) 16:49, 19 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]