Talk:Leben (milk product)

Israeli? Or berber?

Berbers / amazigh, have been drinking leben for centuries. How com it is an Ashkenazim invention of one century ago? http://moroccanfood.about.com/od/glossary/g/Lban-Buttermilk.htm http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-NTBAZzLz3EY/TnJO4spdEmI/AAAAAAAAAew/AJqReGzCca8/s1600/DSC_0178a.JPG --95.120.65.198 (talk) 00:28, 15 June 2012 (UTC)

It's very likely that this article is a part of a disinformation campaign

I share the same concern as the previous poster. I believe that just like the ones in many other Wiki projects, and general history or knowledge groups, a very, very few people (maybe within this particular project) are undertaking a minor and absurd disinformation campaign. Though my opinion is based on observations and revelations from previous and similar wikis, I fully admit that I am— only for now— speculating. This article, and the basis of the source material, has no facts to prove any of the historical claims. It is not only common knowledge but also immediately discoverable and observable following a visit to Mediterranean, Berber, or Arab countries and communities, that this is a centuries-old drink with origins belonging to a Mediterranean or Middle Eastern people, Arab or otherwise. The New York Times published a story (http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/21/business/21carasso.html?em&_r=0) following the death of the Greek Sephardic Jewish founder of the Danone brand (Dannon in the U.S.) that specifies he merely popularized the drink in the 20th century, not invented it. This wiki article cites a source that shares extremely similar language used in the NYT story, the difference being that the NYT uses words like "popularized" while the article source uses "invented". Next, the NYT article was cited in a Jewish blog (http://failedmessiah.typepad.com/failed_messiahcom/2009/05/how-the-jews-invented-yogurt.html) published by [Shmarya Rosenberg] that claims "how the Jews invented yogurt", despite the fact his own source makes no claim or suggestion of that whatsoever. There is a Danone brand drink named Activia that elaborates upon leben's health benefits in the Arabic language version of its website (http://www.activia.com.sa/high-suger-yogurt.htm), but not in any other language or countries’. This point is obviously not direct evidence toward my idea, but it is very interesting to note, and I do not think it is much likely to be a coincidence. The following is a partial list of websites that clearly link the drink to Greek, Arab, or more ancient Middle Eastern cultures, while some identify or strongly suggest non-Jewish Arab or Middle Eastern origins all together: http://moroccanfood.about.com/od/glossary/g/Lban-Buttermilk.htm http://mideastfood.about.com/od/drinkscoffeetea/r/ayran.htm http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayran http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_cuisine http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strained_yoghurt http://mideastfood.about.com/od/middleeasternfood101/Middle_Eastern_Food_and_Culture_101.htm http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2010/dec/04/yotam-ottolenghi-christmas-party-recipes http://www.articleinsider.com/food-and-beverages/arabic-food/arabic-drinks http://www.canadianarabcommunity.com/arabiccuisine.php http://carolinaarabfood.wordpress.com/2012/01/30/labneh-labneh-labneh-i-am-a-usc-arab-food-student/ http://www.karoun.com/drinkinglaban.html http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php?topic=2694.0 https://www.karouncheese.com/index/aboutus I will continue researching until I find authoritative websites that either disprove or vindicate the claims of this article. If disproven, I'll gather enough information and facts to create a Wiki for this beverage. Rodeojava (talk) 22:41, 1 October 2012 (UTC)

Interesting research. While I can't think of any reason that a tasty yogurt drink would be included in a nefarious disinformation campaign of any kind, I genuinely look forward to seeing what you come up with. Do you suppose its more probable, though, that members of the WikiProject are simply approaching topics from their sometimes limited, understandably ethnocentric understanding of the given topic? I think any good information you find which contradicts the claims set forth in this article should certainly be included to help educate readers (and editors). Cheers! Zujua (talk) 00:50, 7 October 2012 (UTC)

I agree that we need to Assume Good Faith, but this article is pretty terrible. I think it's pretty clear that the Israeli origin claim is completely inaccurate. The English version of the French article Leben is in English Strained Yoghurt, which covers the traditional Levantine preparation but not the North African use of the term, which is more like a yogurt drink. It looks like you've got things covered, though. Happy editing. etothei (talk) 18:21, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

I think there is a mix of two different dairy products sharing the same name. There is a yogurt drink common across the entire Mediterranean, and there is the thicker than yogurt food (not drink) which as far as I know (don't have citations) is unique to Israel, that its history is described here. 2A02:A456:BC16:0:442D:D7AF:8E0:8F14 (talk) 20:35, 11 November 2023 (UTC)

I've spent time as an expat in the Arab world. Varieties of leben/leban (however spelled in transliteration) are regional. The Saudi version is very salty to my taste. The Libyan version is sweeter (but not cloyingly so) and thicker. Of course this is OR so I cannot add it to the entry. Cross Reference (talk) 12:52, 9 September 2020 (UTC)

Rewrite

I went ahead and redid it, focusing on two main products. These products each have separate pages, though, so I'm not sure if this page should just be a sort of redirect. In any case it needs more material and references. etothei (talk) 15:51, 28 December 2012 (UTC)

@M.Bitton: I think we should separate the levantine yoghurt from the North African leben. Panam2014 (talk) 00:27, 27 October 2024 (UTC)